New sub-forum suggestion...12/12 from seed

I believe that the growing method of "12/12 from seed" rates its own sub-forum.

These are some of the reasons:

1) it fits the needs of a substantial group of growers that, for a variety of reasons, want to keep the size of their gardens as small as possible. At the moment, people who want/need to keep their gardens small are frequently advised to grow lowryder or a LR hybrid. What a shame to limit yourself to such a shallow gene pool when the cannabis family has an incredible phenotype to grace our gardens with. I am of the belief that 12/12 from seed will work great on most varieties, indica and sativa.

2) it is a largely unexplored method at present, without much representative data here at IC, and would benefit the growing community by encouraging growers to try this method and post on their results. So far, the reports have been nothing but excellent for the most part, but we need to have a lot more folks growing with this method to really understand it well.

3) it would serve to dispel a lot of misinformation regarding the method...many here at IC (and OG when it was up and running) seem to believe that the results are less than satisfactory using this method, even though they have never tried it, yet most who have tried report excellent results.

4) it would allow for specific searches to be done within the 12/12 sub-forum, which would avoid having to read a multitude of posts where the 12/12 is mentioned as a sideline. If I want to see how Nirvana Bubblelicious does under this method, I have to look through all the posts that have Bubblelicious mentioned, none of which happen to be about 12/12 growing.

5) it would serve as a database for grow reports using this method, helping us decide which plant varieties do well under this method, and which (if any..) don't do as well. For example, their seems to be a general consensus that using 12/12 from seed is ONLY useful on sativas or sativa dominant plants in order to limit their size. There are many who believe that potency is reduced using this method. Neither of the above beliefs holds true, and having a sub-forum where this method is discussed thoroughly and regularly will help dispel these misconceptions.

That is all I can come up with off the top of my head here, but I am sure there are other reasons. I would guess that a large portion of the IC community are concerned about how global heating is impacting the planet, and its future generations, and how the use of energy is playing a huge part in that problem. One fantastic thing about the 12/12 method is that it uses much less energy to grow the plants, better for our planet, and better for our energy bills from the utility company.

Anyway, we really need to start talking about this method on a regular basis and recommending it to folks who'se needs it fits. Giving the 12/12 from seed method its own sub-forum would do much to make that happen.

Thanks for listening/reading.

Hal

Not too mention that it would be a sensible sub-forum for anyone who sells beans....

A new subforum would indicate that it is an endorsed method of growing, and im not so sure it is. I think 12/12 from seed should be a last resort method of growing, and not actively encouraged.
Im not saying you can't do it, I understand some people will grow this way for a many number of reasons. It's just that id always recommend people get at least some veg time, to reap a better harvest and give themselves a grow they deserve.
Peace
Baffled

BaffledMonkey said:

A new subforum would indicate that it is an endorsed method of growing, and im not so sure it is. I think 12/12 from seed should be a last resort method of growing, and not actively encouraged.
Im not saying you can't do it, I understand some people will grow this way for a many number of reasons. It's just that id always recommend people get at least some veg time, to reap a better harvest and give themselves a grow they deserve.
Peace
Baffled

Click to expand...

Howdy Baffled,

Thanks for responding.

I will agree with you that it isn't, at the moment, and endorsed method of growing. This is due to the fact that it hasn't been attempted by very many growers, not due to it being a bad way to grow.

You said it best yourself, above: "I understand some people will grow this way for a many number of reasons." There happen to be a ton of people who would like to grow but don't have the space, or the privacy, to attempt a garden that will give a large harvest.

And:"give themselves a grow they deserve." That is the question. What is "a grow they deserve?" Not everyone desires/needs a large harvest. Not everyone wants to risk major legal problems that the discovery of a large garden brings. The list goes on.

When giving advice to people, it is best to consider their particular wants and needs, and not to advise them based on what you personally want from a garden. It would seem best to encourage them to grow a garden that fits their situation.

Thanks again for responding.

Hal

Daisy...Daisy....

bump

I know this ain't a growshow, but I'm pulling up a chair anyways. Having just gotten back into the hobby there's always new stuff to learn, like this - never heard of it before.

Any links to threads detailing actual pros & cons?

Personally I think every possible way to grow mj should be encouraged, and that the question at hand is if there are enough people on these forums that grow with this type of method?

If height is an issue I would veg out a topped bush and SCROG.

12/12 from seed requires too many plants to grow any real weight.

Many juristictions go by plant numbers, and they consider each plant to be worth way more than what each of your plants will really be worth, especially if your going to be starting seeds from 12/12.

It is kind of hard to explain to the judge you just used a SOG technique, and didn't get as much per plant, at least without paying an expert witness to testify at your trial, and even then it is a stretch.

Guy over in Security & Legal is looking at 7-20 years for 50 plants.

Say you get 14 grams tops per plant from starting 50 seeds on 12/12 immediately.

That is less than 750 grams.

Do you want to go to jail for 20 years for 750 grams?

Think about it.

It is great to experiment, but most people here are not scientists with permits to do experiments with Cannabis.

I applaud your innovation and commitment to improving growing techniques, but I fear for your well being.

7-8 weeks of 12/12, since they were put in the netcups as seedlings.. NO veg time .
arjans haze x kali mist.. theyre 5 feet tall now!

a subforum for this would be cool

Hey alphacat...yeah, there are a few threads that describe grows. I'll see if I can hunt a few down and post them here. Glad to see your interested. I can probably list the pros and cons in a general way:

- if you have limited space, this method will shrink the size of the plants, both in height and girth. it also reduces yield, so if you want to grow large crops this isn't the method to go with. Still, yields of 1 ounce per plant (dried) are normal using this method. I don't smoke too much, and that is plenty for me.

- it reduces the amount of time you invest in each crop...so actually, even though you are getting reduced yields, per plant, it is expected that you could fit in one more crop cycle each year, which would make up for some of the reduced yield.

- it eliminates the need for separate veg/flower rooms. You can have a perpetual grow going with seedlings and beautiful pole shaped colas right next to each other.

- it reduces power consumption. If a grower is vegging their plants for one month at 24 hrs a day, thats a lot of extra electricity.

- it can help with heat issues, which seem to plague quite a few growers it would seem (usually the less advanced, newbie types who haven't got all the equipment that many of the more serious growers have).

- it saves you the trouble of spending all that time vegging your plants, and then finding you spent a lot of time working with a bunch of males. The plants will generally show their sex around 2 to 3 weeks old. Then just toss the males.

lets see, there's probably a few more that aren't occurring to me right now. But still, even those reasons that I just presented are pretty important.

Hey Unbound....I believe that the # of growers using this method are somewhat limited at the moment, but that doesn't have anything to do with its effectiveness. There just aren't a lot of growers who know about this, and who have actually tried doing. There are quite a few growers who dismiss this method, only because it doesn't result in huge yields. Of course, huge yields aren't important to many here on IC. When other growers, many whom have great big beautiful gardens and expertise, bad mouth this method it serves to keep everybody, especially newbs, in the dark.

Hey Lurkerguy....you are absolutely correct about the danger of growing a lot of small plants in states whose cultivation laws are based on the # of plants grown as opposed to total weight. In that case, growing this method might be dangerous. You would need to research the laws of your state to make sure you stayed as safe as possible. My state has its penalties based on total weight. That being said, my gardens are quite small, usually around 5 plants (and like I said earlier, my first attempt at using this method got me at least 1 ounce of dried bud from each of my 4 plants, which ranged in height from 12" to 23" at harvest), and as long as you can keep your lips zipped, it is pretty hard to get busted with such a small garden.

Hey Longdivision....nice to see someone who is well aquainted with the method! Just imagine what those sativa genes would be doing if you did a bit of vegging! I have never grown any sativa dominant plants, but look forward to doing so in the near future.

Does anyone think setting up a poll, to see how many growers have tried growing with this method, would be a good thing to do?

Lets keep talking about this.

i just finished 12/12 from seed grow. the link is in my signature. and i definately plan on doing more...i was impressed with the results.

i think its also worth mentioning that you get a high percentage of females when growing 12/12 from seed. plant yields ranged from 25 grams to 40, too.

i dont think that a whole subforum should be dedicated it, though. perhaps it'd be nice to have an 'Experiments' subforum where a thread could be dedicated to it. there used to be a fantastic thread on overgrow in there 'experiment' subforum..

Hal,
are you seriously talking about growing seedlings starting from the sprout thru finish entirely on a 12/12 lighting cycle ?

Have you done this ?
What strain did you do this with ?
Do you have any pictures ?

To me it sounds just totally flawed from the get go.
Bud production depends, at the very least, on having some branch nodes for the buds to grow from, and some foliage to support and power all the growth.
The growth itself is directly affected by or life supported by an adequate root system.
The old saying goes "the bugger the roots...the bigger the buds".

On top of all that, to realize the fullest potency potential of any given strain, it's also desirable for the plant to reach sexual maturity before it's put into flowering.
This is why most growers with some experience under their belts learn to clone, so they can always have sexually mature stock, which they can veg for a given period to a desired starting size and bud it at a controlled height to suit their grow rooms height limitations. Some growers flower their clones at very small heights, but even then it is best to give it some veg time in order to develop a decent root system beforeflipping them to 12/12.

Yes, pleanty of sog style growers run high plant counts and put their rooted clones into 12/12 immediatly and the end result in most cases are plants with very limited branching or even a single cola style "sea of budsickles" (strain dependant).

Now imho anyway...
To grow seedlings from germination in 12/12 would cause a number of problems, like a lot of elongation from the seedlings searching for light, very poor vegetative growth, big stretching as (or if) the seedlings go into a self preservation mode and begun flowering, and very poor final yields from not having a well developed overall structure.
Obviously, this technique isnt doing anything for holding down plant heights as you can see in longdivisions pictures and description.

All said and done, I really don't feel there would be many folks who would want to invest their time trying to grow out plants in this fashion. Which leads me to say that a sub-forum here (or any other mj website) would be a non starter.

UNLESS of course, a few individuals were interested in showing and documenting their "grown 12/12 from germination" techniques here, in a nice photoessay style thread.

So yea, for now please show us this technique and maybe more folks will become interested in doing it themselves too.

I suggest doing so in the grow diaries forum.

id be down for a subforum..maybe just turn this thread into like the official 12/12 seed club or something. i think thats more achievable and realistic.


btw 10k this isnt as far out there as you think.. some plants give you a nice fat cola ,that with proper lighting will yield you a decent amt of bud , while others still branch out regardless..yes the seedlings are alittle stretchy but all you have to do is repot it.the plants show sex early , repot and then watch them shoot up.this has been done many times before.and the problems that you stated arent really an issue to be honest.plants look healthy and normal. you remember atmosphere from og??

sure, expensive beans i would veg always out and take a mom & clones etc, but ive got alot of these arjans haze x kali mist beans from MOD from his contest, and he recommended 12/12 from seed with these..sure we have clones of this strain from a previous run, but these seeds need planted =)

i only have 6' to work with, and these sativas branched out bigtime,

*in the bottom pic the plant on the left was topped twice, and the one on the right is untouched... 2 females outta 4 beans

ill have to get some budshots tomorrow of these plants, its gonna be a nice harvest..


EDIT: ok my memory sucks, i DID veg these for a 5 days under a couple cfl's... i had to reread my journal to figure it out.. sorry, its been about 8 weeks now on 12/12..

here they are at 1 week of 12/12 and a total of 12 days old..

13 days later..

and 12 more days later..

and finally 24 days later.. (last week)

12/12 from seeds ?

12/12 from seeds ?

here is a twilight I've done 3 years ago, no veg time
12/12 straight from seeds to weed



I feel there is a lot of peopletalkin about 12/12 but never did it
so pop some seeds and see by yourself

this is a very popular way of growing in our area for about 4-5 years

take care all

Let me just clarify a little here, im not talking sat's here, everyone knows you can grow sat's from 12/12, and especially with pure sats it is the only realistic way for many indoor growers to grow them that way. It's your preposed idea to grow any strain this way, and im afraid thats just poor practise, if its a size issue, top and train them and learn to best utilise the space you have to achieve best results growing indicas from 12/12 will never give you the same results as a plant thats been vegged and trained, scrog or lst, I dont think anyone on this board will deny that veg time is always influential on final yield. I just dont think this method is economical enough to justify people doing it, there's already a forum for micro grows showing many good methods to best utilise small spaces with limited plant numbers, and I bet they will all give better results than blooming indica's from 12/12.
The method of growing isn't in question, its whether or not it should be encouraged, and I say no, because the results will always be sub par compared to a grow thats had a veg period.
Peace
Baffled

the main interest in this kind of grow is growing from seed to weed in 60-70 days if you got plenty of beans (get a male and a female and you'll get a ton of beans) and growing multi-varieties in a small scale grow in limited time

who cares about the weight ?

I'm a personal grower not a commercial one
as far as I got enough pot to smoke , why would it be a bad way to grow ?

It has nothing to do with commercial grows, its all about the economics of growing. This method will always be sub par. If you are going to take the time, expense and exposure to grow herb then you deserve the best possible final result. Lets take your 60-70 day strain as an example flying, ill make it 65 days for ease of demonstration, whatever you do you have to sit and wait the flowering time, no getting round that unfortunately, unless we're going to start a forum for picking immature buds also. Lets say that strain flowered from seed produces 25grams. Divide the weight by the time taken

so it should be 25g divided by 65 = 0.38 grams a day or there abouts

Now lets say you had vegged for 2 weeks, you'd expect the weight to be considerably more lets say roughly 40g.

so 40g divided by 79 (flowering time + 2 weeks veg) = 0.50 grams a day

Give the plant 3 or 4 weeks veg with training and the yeild will be significantly higher still, pushing the grams a day figure even higher.
If security is your concern, 12/12 from seed would be a perpetual method meaning you're exposed all year round, growing and training plants properly will give you more final product in less time, making your exposure less.The quality of the final product will be better also.

Peace
Baffled

There seems to be a mis-conception here that if you go 12/12 from seed with a 60 day strain you will be harvesting 60 days after germination.
It doesnt work like that.

In the 3rd week of growth ( 14-21 days after germ ) you will see sex start to show,,,,, you can then add those 60 days to that.
Forget a 60 day grow cycle using this method,,,, 80+ is more realistic.

All i see anyone saving using this method is a little bit of electricty and a week or two at most time wise.
Yes, you can get between an oz to 1 /12 per plant,,,,, but a good months vegging (from seed) can quadruple that amount.

10K : Your assumption of what would happen is pretty spot on. I'm surprised you've not heard of this method before though. You've been around a long time and there have been many threads about it,,, especially on OG.

yes stikky budz yes you right , sex declares at 2-3 weeks after germination thanks for the clarification

BaffledMonkey thanks for your answer, but the main interest is to try different strains in a little area and low wattage
but I'm not sure the quality will be less or better with this method
btw, I'm not using this method by now, I'm getting mother and clones

I will try to find some pictures of an old grow 12/12


take care