Is it Me, or Is It My Bucket? (xPost)

So, after much redesign and fanagling, I've got my cabinet o' cannabis up and running. Now I'm having trouble with my mini-bio-bucket.

Here's the setup:

The cabinet has about 60-70w per sq. ft. Mixed lighting between a 150w HPS and a 70w MH. Temperatures are kept within 1-3 degrees F of room temperature.

The Bio-Bucket design is the out of the norm in the equation, and I have to rule out any malfunction or misdesign in it before I go any further. The container is an approximately 14"x21"x7" (~6 Gallon) plastic tub. It acts as both the resevoir and the container for the plants. Oxygen is provide from a Penguin Bio-Wheel 125 and an Aquaclear Powerhead 301 . There is approximately 1 gallon of lava stone suspended in the bucket to provide BB space. I ran a very similar setup to this previously and it worked perfectly, so I don't really think the design is the problem, but it might be.

Now here's the chain of events:

I was preparing the box for production and the clones I was getting were read y too soon. As such, the following items may have been introduced to the resevoir in the course of finalizing:

* Hardened Killz Spray Primer
* Sawdust from either wood or heavy card board (like they make pegboard out of)

Here's the photodiary:

Here's how they started:



I had just previously rearranged the plants as the ones on the right seemed to be missing out on the waterfall action going on on the right. I switched them, and simultaeneously added the powerhead and upped the nutes. The PPM strip read around 400-450.

They briefly looked better:



But then started turning south after a day:









I feel like it might be a dissolved oxygen (DO) problem, so I put some root shots:






Those are the healthy looking ones, the ones on right look like this:



The particularly limp ones on the left have some damage on them I thought might be useful in diagnosing:






Please help. I'm begging. I need to prove this system to myself, otherwise the past month of my freetime has been wasted.

The only method I have of testing is strips, so here's what I've got:

200-400 PPM Total Hardness (TH)
PH <= 6.4 (Looks as low as the strip can tell)
80-100 PPM Total Alkalinity (TA)

Thanks.

SuperBonBon

What is the temp of the water?

Water temperature is about 75 degrees F.

bingo, water holds less oxygen at that temp.

Add some Hygrozyme (or your preferred "zyme") at half strength to compensate for temp issues.

Per the Complete Guide to Sick Plants, PH, and Pest Problems:

Keeping temps between 65 to 82 will allow MAX DO levels or max o2 for roots. (Thank you so much for the information syko2! has provided above!)

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Doesn't seem like it should be that, right? What would you recommend I shoot for as far as resevoir temps?

Per BigTokes How To On BioBuckets:

Benefits are – some of the fastest and healthiest growing plants that you have ever seen: uses no added air, and no reservoir change-outs, stable ph levels in most cases, and can run at higher temps than a normal hydro system, with no root-rot, I have been growing for little over two yours now in the Bio-Buckets and I have never had root-rot!!

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I'm a little stumped. Anyone know of an easy way to test dissolved oxygen? Maybe somewhere I can rent a meter?

I'm also confused as to why Hygrozyme is a solution to my problem? If I do have a DO problem, how will this solve it?

If I add H202 to the resevoir, will it show me some temporary signs of improvement (and therefore definitively diagnose my problem) without killing the beneficial bacteria in my bucket?

SuperBonBon

Id be impressed to see anyone with healthy roots at 80+ res temps without "helper products" like....

Hygrozyme can help because higher water temp issues mean more root rot issues from lack of DO in your root zone as well as a more hospitable environment for bad bacterium and algae. If you cant bring down the res temps then at least introduce a product that will eat any dying organic matter.

You want to shoot for no less than 70 degree res temp. Especially for an extended period of time. 65 to 68 is ideal.

Btw, different growers will have different results because of smaller points that arent usually spoken about. BT might have a damn near air and light tight setup where no algae can grow. You can't really duplicate that unless you mimic BT's setup. Just a thought...

H2O2 will kill ALL bacteria in your setup, good or bad. It just kills. A system flush with H2O2 wouldnt hurt your plants.

It's not that simple sadly. Everyone here sort of jumped to low DO, well 75* is not really that high. I don't think that is your problem. 6.4 is the lowest your ph strips go? Then you shouldn't be using them for hydro.

Find out your ph. It could be a lockout and you will be trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

DO meters are expensive but they can be bought.

H2o2 works well to provide extra o2 but it also will kill off all living microbes in the water. Personally if you don't have a problem with a bad pathogen (ie root rot) don't use it. If you want to use it for extra o2, then lower the temps rather than adding a bunch of h2o2 and killing everything in the water.

Your clones don't look horribly bad. I would suspect for one your pump and wheel are heating your water. I would put those on a timer like 15on 15off and that will lower the temp somewhat.But yeah fiqure out exactly what the PH is.

The ph also rises with the water temp, this drove me nuts my first hydro grow. In dwc you want the roots 68-72, lower is ok, but higher is simply not. [I don't care about the bio bucket theory, water over 74 degrees causes problems period.]

Res temp is a system function, fix your system to run cooler and forget the add 02 crappola, I don't even consider adding bandaids to my res.
H

throw out the test strips. go buy real meters. Specifically EC/PPM and PH.If you wanna do it right you need the proper tools. No different then anything else in life. 75 is not that bad of a temp, and you should not be having problems soley because of this. DO is the least of your problems.

Who to trust?

Noone but myself. So here's the plan of action:

* Last night I added some ice cubes to the resevoir (they actually went perfectly where the carbon filter used to go in the Penguin 125) and placed a frozen bottle in there this morning. Temps seemed to be lowering to about 72 when I left. I'll check them again shortly.

* Today, I will see about getting some Hygrozyme to put in there. Even if it just helps short term, I might need it again sometime.

* I'm going to see about getting a better pH testing solution today, but budgetary concerns may keep me from doing so. Too bad it's exactly the wrong time of year to be eBaying. PPM I'm not horribly worried about, as I've never been before. I may not know exactly what's in there, but I know that I haven't given them more than enough to stay alive and nowhere near enough to kill them. It may be possible that I haven't given them enough food to bring the pH of the system down where it needs to be.

Jesus. Something is different. My last mini-bio-bucket ran flawlessly without any need for testers. It spoiled me.

Will post pictures of progress soon. If anyone else has ideas, share with the class.

SuperBonBon

Does this system recirculate???

How often do you drain and refill?? The powerhead is definatly adding heat to the equation, however if the water is recirc it should be a nonfactor. You can go ahead and lose the waterfall bio-wheel.

An entire shot of the whole system and how it works would help. If the Res is the bucket, it is not a BIO BUCKET SETUP. Just regular DWC.As such you need to drain and refill according to PPM values. No PPM pen. you shold be draining and refilling this system every two days.

Just because something worked before doesnt mean it will work again on a larger scale, especially when you dont have the proper tools at your disposal to diagnose with .Your optimal ph is 5.8, tell me how you are going to know it's anywhere near this value with those test strips??

Temperatures are kept within 1-3 degrees F of room temperature

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What is room temps??

PPM I'm not horribly worried about, as I've never been before. I may not know exactly what's in there, but I know that I haven't given them more than enough to stay alive and nowhere near enough to kill them. It may be possible that I haven't given them enough food to bring the pH of the system down where it needs to be.

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Face it, you dont know and that is the problem.

Sorry to come off harsh, but i like seeing things being done properly. If they are, problems dont occur very often. if they do they are much eaiser to cure because you have the tools to do so.

I am a blunt and "to the point", type of person, the way you are growing is half-assed and you should expect problems.

Take the positives out of my points,or ignore them.

I agree with blunt, you're basically growing blind. When you come in here with a problem and don't know your stats then how are we supposed to come up with a solution?

Ph, ppm, and res temps need to be monitored. I can't stress that enough, they are the keys to any hydro grow. If you are pressed for $, you can get GH ph indicator drops for about $5-10 and they are pretty accurate. A ppm meter can be had for $30-40 and even that you may have got along fine without one, I highly suggest buying one if you want to run more successful hydro crops.

I suggest using ice packs to get down the res temps. I use them with a lot of success. Ice cubes are not the best idea because they will melt into the water and change the stats (ppm and ph). Frozen water bottles work well too but I personally like ice packs more.

Basically you are guessing at a problem and trying to fix a problem you aren't sure you have in the 1st place. Get the tools, know the stats, then make a decision based on that.

Thank you for your insight and suggestions Blunt_69. I'll address them in order.

Blunt_69 said:

Does this system recirculate???

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No. The system does not recirculate. It's designed not to. A seperate resevoir would not fulfill the stealth requirements for my grow. It's a cabinet grow. Not a cabinet and ottoman grow.

Blunt_69 said:

How often do you drain and refill?? The powerhead is definatly adding heat to the equation, however if the water is recirc it should be a nonfactor. You can go ahead and lose the waterfall bio-wheel.

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I don't ever drain and re-fill. There's no reason to. It's a modification of the bio-bucket principle for the mini-grow.

Blunt_69 said:

An entire shot of the whole system and how it works would help. If the Res is the bucket, it is not a BIO BUCKET SETUP. Just regular DWC.As such you need to drain and refill according to PPM values. No PPM pen. you shold be draining and refilling this system every two days.

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It is not a DWC. If it's not a Bio Bucket, it's a Bio Tub. The same principle applies. Circulation of heavily oxygenated water around a porous material to encourage the growth of beneficial bacteria. Just because I don't have a seperate resevoir doesn't make it a DWC.

Blunt_69 said:

Just because something worked before doesnt mean it will work again on a larger scale, especially when you dont have the proper tools at your disposal to diagnose with .Your optimal ph is 5.8, tell me how you are going to know it's anywhere near this value with those test strips??

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The scale is the same as I've had before, slightly smaller if anthing. One of the main selling points of this system is it's ease of maintenance. I'm not asking you to help me test and implement my (already proven several times) system, I'm asking for help diagnosing the syptoms of the ailment.

Blunt_69 said:

What is room temps??

Face it, you dont know and that is the problem.

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I didn't post it because it doesn't matter. The temperatures are well within range for normal growth. If you really want to know, the temperatures generall range from 71-76 degrees inside the box, depending on how the weather outside is affecting my poorly insulated dwelling. The maximum temperature in the past four days was a three or four hour span of about 84 degrees where my] ventilation was turned down for company.

Blunt_69 said:

Sorry to come off harsh, but i like seeing things being done properly. If they are, problems dont occur very often. if they do they are much eaiser to cure because you have the tools to do so.

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That's fine. I'd just bet that you either didn't read my post or you have some sort of superiority complex towards growing that doesn't really allow for other people's personal styles or situations. I've had plenty of harvests without meters before, and whenever I do decide to get them, it will be to satisfy my own curiosity, not because things have to be done perfectly.

Blunt_69 said:

I am a blunt and "to the point", type of person, the way you are growing is half-assed and you should expect problems.

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It's not half-assed, it's low maintenance, and it's the way it's worked just splendidly in the past.

Blunt_69 said:

Take the positives out of my points,or ignore them.

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I tried, but funny thing was, you didn't really have anything helpful to say.

In case you or somebody with something that's a little more positive actually want to help me figure out the problem with what I have to offer, here's a little something that seems to be developing lately. The temperatures have been 72-74, the res temps slightly lower.
And no offense, but don't try to mask a derisive post with a positive disclaimer. It's just condescending.

SuperBonBon

Oh, and the whole reason I stopped by:

Have been adding frozen bottles to the rez, lowering temperatures into the 69-73 range. The new pH tester shows a possible range of 6.0-6.2

Those pictures right above are from about an hour ago.

Thanks,

SuperBonBon

If you're growing hydro, your ideal pH is 5.5. Based on what I've been reading, there are various nutrients that lock out as the pH rises to 6.0 and others that will lock out as your pH reaches 5.0.

I'm not an expert, but based on my own experience and my reading on the forum thus far, it seems to me you have a nutrient problem, probably based around your pH. You probably have a massive nute lockout from having your pH as high as 6.4 in a hydro situation.

And the easy way to test oxygen is to buy a meter. It's not expensive enough to warrant any company renting one out. The easy way to measure anything going on in your system is an appropriate meter.

I hope that lid is really white paint on black, because I have yet to see a piece of white plastic block out sufficient amounts of light.

And I concur that the addition of peroxide does, indeed, simply wipe out all bacterial life as we know it within a given system.

Also, for the record, Blunt_69 is right in that you are not running a bio-bucket, but a DWC with lava rock bio-cultures. A bio-bucket is a recirculating DWC with a seperate reservoir situated in such a manner that the ensuing waterfall effect eliinates the need for additional aeration from an air pump or powerhead. If you want to talk about a low-maintainence system, I can tell you that, from an engineering perspective, Big Toke's got it goin' on.

And for a DWC like yours (I'm using something similar), my reading and experience tells me that you really should drain and refill or you risk deficiencies and toxicities. You may be using the bio-bucket principles, but it's still not a bio-bucket. If I had the room, I'd be running Bio-buckets. Hell, I'll stamp pictures of Big Toke's ugly mug on each bucket just for coming up with it, but that's going off-topic.

Just for the record, I could never before recently have any idea to the pH. The strips I had went as low as 6.4 and it bottomed it out. Got a new thing and it's showing right around the 6.0 area. Maybe even a little less.

Also, in the previous incarnations of this same container concept worked flawlessly without the powerhead, using only the waterfall filter.

Thanks,

SuperBonBon

SuperBonBon said:

Just for the record, I could never before recently have any idea to the pH. The strips I had went as low as 6.4 and it bottomed it out.

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That's why you get one basic pH meter for $20 and save yourself the trouble and guesswork.

Don't get too jaded just because you had a few good grows. There's always something unexpected around the corner, as you can see. Any grower will tell you that. By closely monitoring all possible aspects of your favored hobby, you can help prevent unexpected twists and turns.

Get a pH meter.. problem solved.