Grow Automation and Industrial / Computerized Systems Controls

Ttystikk · Feb 20, 2014

I just scratched the surface of systems automation, and discovered that several ICMagers know a LOT about this stuff! So let's talk about environmental controls, being able to control more than one space at a time and integrate functions, HVAC automation, etc.

Brands and systems, including but not limited to;
Grobot
Growtronix
Arduino
Beaglebones

LargePrime · Feb 20, 2014

Perhaps we should start with quotes from the last thread?

Ttystikk, perhaps you might edit them into your first post to get us started?

LargePrime said:
The arduino phenomenon has exploded the DY industrial control world into the "main stream"

The beaglebones are rather arduino compatible, with even more expandability and robustness. the software is all linux/php. the hardware is all low voltage sensors and relays running anything in the world you could want. I have a 5v solid state optically isolated relays running 240V equipment in my set up. These little guys are ~1USD and will run just about anything in a grow room. you can get versions that will controll power to your water chillers too.

You also can have PH, CO2, EC, soil moisture, and all the industrial control. all in a main control package that is about 45$

But VATransplant, Ttystikk, perhaps we should take this to a different thread, as its kinda off topic?

DabOnDabs · Feb 20, 2014

Alot of the bigger stuff is being done w/ PLC's or programmable logic controllers. From what I've gathered, if an arduino is a honda, a PLC is a dump truck when it comes to grow room automation.

Siemens Logo! is the brand I had quoted for me.

All of the above tho are badass systems.

I'm trying to get someone to design a PLC w/ 4 climate zone control in one, w/ data logging and remote access to settings. I did a ton of research about 6 months ago, and realized its a little beyond my knowhow.

hvac guy · Feb 20, 2014

DonD has it right, a PLC is the best way to go and if you use Siemens LOGO or SIMATIC PLCs, you can integrate control and monitoring of all the equipment. Hit me DonD, I can design and building anything with a PLC, I'm an electrician who's got my HVAC apprenticehsip in the works, trying to get two trade quailifications.

StitchMonkey · Feb 20, 2014

hvac guy

What level of knowledge is needed to connect a duct fan of typical grow usage to an Arduino or other in a manor that would allow you to adjust the speed and/or turn it off? I have not seen much specifically on this aspect. . . .party because any searching for Arduino and fans tends to result in PC fans. I know you can do what I am talking about with PWM PC fans. . . but have no idea the power needs/constants/dangers involved with a full duct fan.

LargePrime · Feb 20, 2014

DabOnDabs said:
Alot of the bigger stuff is being done w/ PLC's or programmable logic controllers.

The CAI webcontrol i mentioned has a PLC version. its the one i use. I think its ~45$

But, again, the arduino movement has mad the difference between a "proper" plc and these hobby systems moot. As well the industrial guys are moving to more robust arduino like systems to add lots of cool features cheap.

StitchMonkey said:
hvac guy

What level of knowledge is needed to connect a duct fan of typical grow usage to an Arduino or other in a manor that would allow you to adjust the speed and/or turn it off?

well asuming you have a typical 3 speed motor it is rather trivial. Especially with the CAI system, as most of the work is done for you. The CAI PLC is kinda a trap tho, as the board is limited and will teach you bad habits like all this stuff is stupid easy.

A proper begalbone has a metric ton more functionality long term. harder to set up.

StitchMonkey · Feb 20, 2014

OK LargePrime, I will be honest and say that most of what you said was over my head, the part about teaching bad habits I got, I am happy to do more work/research rather than do messy short cuts. I am basically a PC nerd has has been looking for an excuse to get an Arduino/Pi/Begalbone for awhile and feel like a grow room is a great excuse to learn.

I have no idea if I have a three speed motor on my fan, how do I go about determining this? I have it hooked up to a cheap fan controller to adjust it and frankly it has two settings high and slightly less high. It is not a click or a distinctive low medium and high setting. If i turn the dial even close to medium it just stops spinning.

I am certainly open to going with the Begalbone or an alternative to the arduino, to be honest I would prefer the Beaglebone/Raspberry Pi if for no other reason than having linux as an option. My main reason for looking more at Arduino is compatibility with all the sensor, etc. out there. I do like the idea of testing and logging more than I need to, so cheap sensors, adapters, plug ins, accessories etc. is very appealing, and this aspect does seem to make the Arduino seem likeable. Then again I have heard of people just connecting the Arduino to a Pi/Beaglebone as well so. . . I'm still figuring this all out. I see monitoring things like light levels, CO2, wind speed, humidity, temp, etc. as a great way to allow me to feel like I am doing something with my plants without actually doing so much to/with them to kill them. Controlling the fan is not my only or even primary goal, it is just the foggiest piece of the puzzle.

Ttystikk · Feb 21, 2014

This is fantastic! I really appreciate you guys opening my eyes go these things, because I was beginning to despair about how to integrate the controls of my grow, my HVAC, the upcoming aquaponics project, integrating hot water usage around the house, etc etc etc...

In Growtronix' defense, they do have quit a few different modules that would allow a plug n play approach. It may not yet be the be all end all- but they are working at it. If I were not interested in learning the nuts n bolts of an Arduino or beaglebone type system for the above applications, then Growtronix would be a great option.

rives · Feb 21, 2014

I use an Allen Bradley MicroLogix controller for my setup. It lacks analog capability, but I had several of them laying around so it was hard to beat the price. I like industrial gear because it is typically far more robust than the roll-your-own stuff.

Regarding the fan control, Fantech has a series of electronically-commutated fans that have the speed controller built-in - all you need is an external pot or 0-10vdc signal. They are supposed to be controllable over a far broader speed range than any alternative other than perhaps a frequency drive, and are also advertised as being 30% more energy-efficient than standard AC fans. I have one to install in my new area, along with a PID-loop temperature controller for it, and just need to get off my ass and get it all installed.

Looking at it from a distance, I like the Growtronix system because of the ease of communication that it makes available.

Fantech EC brochure -
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=MTt2Ibs58PGfQZUx82Bajw&bvm=bv.61725948,d.cGU

FtWendy · Feb 21, 2014

http://www.grohaus-automation.com/learn-more/ $6k but cadillac setup

http://www.agrowtek.com/ seen great things from their setup, too

Nice to see you around tty

GrowerGoneWild · Feb 21, 2014

I like the PLC.. I've used AB Pico for automation in past projects. As people have stated before industrial/commerical gear is way more durable than some of the hacker projects Ive seen. If you really want to include the PC in your project you can build the logic ladder and upload it to the controller. I like programming straight to the controller.

I know it was mentioned that the PLC is a "dump truck" I guess hes talking about the micrologix series.. I think the Allen Bradley Pico's are suitable for our garden automation needs.

I will have to look at the newer controlers like Arduino .. they look promising.

LargePrime · Feb 21, 2014

StitchMonkey said:
OK LargePrime, I will be honest and say that most of what you said was over my head, the part about teaching bad habits I got,<snip>
I am happy to do more work/research rather than do messy short cuts.

I am prolly only half a step ahead, in that I started fooling around/building with this a few months ago. And possibly other interest and experience in the domain.

Perhaps 'bad habits' is overstating. Products like the growtronics and CAI webcontrol do far more of the work. IMHO this means you are abstracted away from what is really happening at a low level. With a low level understanding of what is happening you have more power and flexibility under your command. At the cost of time and effort on your part.

StitchMonkey said:
I am basically a PC nerd has has been looking for an excuse to get an Arduino/Pi/Begalbone for awhile and feel like a grow room is a great excuse to learn.

Come on in, the water is fine. Honestly this is kinda a whole new frontier. Like back in the 70's when people were building pc's in their garage. We can be a part of that. Thats pretty cool.

StitchMonkey said:
I have no idea if I have a three speed motor on my fan, how do I go about determining this? I have it hooked up to a cheap fan controller to adjust it and frankly it has two settings high and slightly less high. It is not a click or a distinctive low medium and high setting. If i turn the dial even close to medium it just stops spinning.

AFAIK, electric motors mostly cant be speed controlled with power regulation. So I defer to rives. As well, I know mostly nothing about ventilation products in grow rooms.

I just use a standard house furnace squirrel cage blower. Got it free from scrap and put a standard cheap 3 speed motor. Then its just a matter of flipping the right relay to control speed.

StitchMonkey said:
I am certainly open to going with the Begalbone or an alternative to the arduino, to be honest I would prefer the Beaglebone/Raspberry Pi if for no other reason than having linux as an option.

And that is a very wise option. You will never get stuck with a product that a vendor does not support.

StitchMonkey said:
My main reason for looking more at Arduino is compatibility with all the sensor, etc. out there.

Funny thing. Most all the sensors can be used n all the systems. and they are stupid cheap.

Ttystikk · Feb 21, 2014

FtWendy said:
http://www.grohaus-automation.com/learn-more/ $6k but cadillac setup

http://www.agrowtek.com/ seen great things from their setup, too

Nice to see you around tty

Hey buddy! Long time and a forum far, far away!

Higher prices are no bueno! If I'm going to spend money on a complete system where someone else has done all the thinking, I'll get Growtronix. That's their niche, and it's a great one.

I'm just looking to see if I can find a solution that costs less and works better.

Also, while Growtronix technically could handle my HVAC circuits, that's not really what it was made for. Doing it with their controllers gets very expensive very quickly and brings more functionality than is really necessary most of the time.

Ttystikk · Feb 21, 2014

LargePrime said:
I am prolly only half a step ahead, in that I started fooling around/building with this a few months ago. And possibly other interest and experience in the domain.

Perhaps 'bad habits' is overstating. Products like the growtronics and CAI webcontrol do far more of the work. IMHO this means you are abstracted away from what is really happening at a low level. With a low level understanding of what is happening you have more power and flexibility under your command. At the cost of time and effort on your part.
Come on in, the water is fine. Honestly this is kinda a whole new frontier. Like back in the 70's when people were building pc's in their garage. We can be a part of that. Thats pretty cool.AFAIK, electric motors mostly cant be speed controlled with power regulation. So I defer to rives. As well, I know mostly nothing about ventilation products in grow rooms.

I just use a standard house furnace squirrel cage blower. Got it free from scrap and put a standard cheap 3 speed motor. Then its just a matter of flipping the right relay to control speed.And that is a very wise option. You will never get stuck with a product that a vendor does not support.Funny thing. Most all the sensors can be used n all the systems. and they are stupid cheap.

YES! This IS new, just like the advent of the internet. This is giving us a much finger level of control over all the devices that operate to make our lives more computable or give us things. This kind of having machines do our bidding will grow exponentially, and controls such as these are the necessary link to make them work for us. You raised the hair on the back of my neck...

It's good to hear that sensors are cheap, motors already have multiple speed points for relays that all these systems will operate, etc.

I just got the feeling that I found the Lego box I'll be playing in for the rest of my life, LOL

LargePrime · Feb 21, 2014

Ttystikk said:
YES! This IS new

heh. Neat to see/feel someone geeked like I was to start playing with this.

I mean there is the practical thing where you can control basically an unlimited number and wattage of lights for a fraction of dollars it used to cost. and you can add stuff to it.

Then there is the "If my furnace control module goes, I am not paying 500+$ for a new one. ima build one for <100$" and add better humidity control, efficiency, redundancy, and email, phone app, security, flexibility...

Then there is the DUDE! LET ME AUTOMATE YOUR GROW ROOM TOO!!!

So cool to see you geeking on this too.

SRGB · Feb 21, 2014

Hi.

Interesting thread. An open source (hardware, software, electrical engineering, physics) project at ICMAG:

The Float Valve Auto Watering Thread

One of the projects` goals includes the simultaneous development of an electrical version and a mechanical version.

Best,
/SRGB/

budleydoright · Feb 21, 2014

LargePrime said:
The CAI webcontrol i mentioned has a PLC version. its the one i use. I think its ~45$

But, again, the arduino movement has mad the difference between a "proper" plc and these hobby systems moot. As well the industrial guys are moving to more robust arduino like systems to add lots of cool features cheap.
well asuming you have a typical 3 speed motor it is rather trivial. Especially with the CAI system, as most of the work is done for you. The CAI PLC is kinda a trap tho, as the board is limited and will teach you bad habits like all this stuff is stupid easy.

A proper begalbone has a metric ton more functionality long term. harder to set up.

That is the board I believe mine is based on.

These guys did some tweeking to the softtware and built a 100 amp switching box to go with it.

LargePrime · Feb 21, 2014

budleydoright said:
That is the board I believe mine is based on.

since the copyright is 2009 you must mean the CAI webcontrol board, right? I googled but found nothing on your digigrow. what is it?

LargePrime · Feb 21, 2014

SRGB said:
An open source (hardware, software, electrical engineering, physics) project at ICMAG:

We need VAtransplant here.
What if we really did select one board and stitched all the needed parts together to do an OSS/OSHW grow room controller project?

budleydoright · Feb 21, 2014

LargePrime said:
since the copyright is 2009 you must mean the CAI webcontrol board, right? I googled but found nothing on your digigrow. what is it?

It was a prototype controller I purchased. It appears to be made with this board. It does all kinds of great stuff and has never failed. The RH and TEMP are a bit off though. The company that made it never did anything with them.

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