Building New Panels - Sharing the Process

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

I'm building a new (modest) grow room and building LED panels. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm learning. I thought I'd document the process. I'd like to use the latest 2013 tech.

While I'm at it, I'm trying to help a friend with a 2' deep closet grow. 4' wide. 8' tall. Exhaust from second floor to outside. So a low heat solution for him = LED. So I was going to build his also, thinking I'd just make two of everything. (?)

For myself, I'm building a brand new grow area, so I'll have separate veg and flower rooms with lots of space. I'll be walking around the plants - no tight quarters. All new construction.

Flower: 6' x 8' (at least) and 9' tall

Veg: 8' x 8' x 9' tall

This is not a large facility at all, just for me and the Mrs.

So separate panels for veg and flower sounds best. My friend can simply change out the veg panel for the flower panel. My two panels will be in different rooms.

If I'm going to do this, I prefer to overkill wherever possible. I'm not looking at cost. I would just go with max heatsinks. They look great.

I can solder and have built simple electronic pieces before. Speaker crossovers, etc. I have a small shop. That's about it.

:tiphat:

medmaker420 · Jan 11, 2013

sounds fun

Weezard · Jan 11, 2013

Is fun.

I'll jus' sit in da corner an' watch.

Aloha,
Weezard

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5315192&postcount=21

This is what we're shooting for, yes? This shape / pattern? I assume every 2 months new LCDs are available...

I can use light movers

Weezard, thanks for the motivational photo-

Heat Sinks: I have a drill press - would screwing LEDs to the sink be better than tape? I can tap and die or use self tapping torx.

LEDs: 30W each.

1 Cree royal blue (450nm)
4 Cree neutral white
6 Osram GD+ red
6 Osram GD+ hyper red

These seem reasonable? What about the 650-680 range? Some debate about that?

mixing WW+ NW+ CW in a 2:2:1 ratio ? Is this for flower?

SK44 Heat Sink

60mm Silent Fans

Seems like I should omit lenses if I have a light mover. Get more penetration and get the edges via the mover.

xmobotx · Jan 11, 2013

rives · Jan 11, 2013

rrog said:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=5315192&postcount=21

This is what we're shooting for, yes? This shape / pattern? I assume every 2 months new LCDs are available...

I can use light movers

Weezard, thanks for the motivational photo-

Heat Sinks: I have a drill press - would screwing LEDs to the sink be better than tape?

LEDs: 30W each.

1 Cree royal blue (450nm)
4 Cree neutral white
6 Osram GD+ red
6 Osram GD+ hyper red

These seem reasonable? What about the 650-680 range? Some debate about that? Can't I just add them all?

SK44 Heat Sink

60mm Silent Fans

The mechanical arrangement of that fixture is one of my personal favorites. My thought would be to build something along that line to cover roughly an 18" x 18" up to a 24" x 24" area with around 100-150 watts. I believe that KNNA said that you should shoot for a minimum of 30 watts per square foot - I use a good bit more than that in flower. I don't know how well the light mover works with the bottom end of the power scale, I like the idea of several fixtures scattered over the top of the grow.

I would buy as large of heat sink as possible - they last forever and can be continually reused. I've not had any experience with the tape method, but have used both glue and screws. The glue is a pain in the ass to change out the components, but it can be done. Drilling and tapping aluminum for a 4-40 screw is torture, if you go this route, you'd better have lots of spare cutting tools and alternate plans for component placement. The easiest method that I've found it to drill holes and use self-tapping, Torx-head screws. Get good quality hardware and spare Torx drivers. You will also need some thermal compound to transfer the heat from the star - oh, it's a hell of a lot simpler if you buy components pre-mounted on mcpcb stars.

It can get difficult to mix a variety of colors because they have different voltage drops and current requirements. The forward voltage isn't an issue, just add them all up and make sure that the sum of the voltages falls between the minimum and the maximum voltage that the driver puts out. The current is critical, however. In a series loop, each device pulls exactly the same current so your choices all need to have close to the same current requirements. As far as the choices go, keep reading. I've been pursuing this for several years now and change my mind almost daily on what I should try next.

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

rives said:
It can get difficult to mix a variety of colors because they have different voltage drops and current requirements. The forward voltage isn't an issue, just add them all up and make sure that the sum of the voltages falls between the minimum and the maximum voltage that the driver puts out. The current is critical, however. In a series loop, each device pulls exactly the same current so your choices all need to have close to the same current requirements. As far as the choices go, keep reading. I've been pursuing this for several years now and change my mind almost daily on what I should try next.

Whaaaaa?

Several fixtures sounds reasonable. Would omit the light movers then, unless one wanted to have several red distributed amongst several boxes, then on mover(s).

I could accommodate veg and a flower panel, with differing blue and red.

Electrical issues aside, these discussions on other threads with 10:30, Weezard, et al is really something. A whole new universe of optical interaction in the leaf.

rives · Jan 11, 2013

There are as many ways of doing this as there are people doing it. That's just my current idea of how to get the best coverage with the most flexibility. Vukman, for instance, built one big ass panel. I'm sure that lot's of other people will chime in.

Yep, it does get interesting. There are some very bright people doing some really interesting things!

Goldy · Jan 11, 2013

Awesome man, will def tag along to watch.

I feel the new Cree XM-L2s are pretty impressive. Do they not give out a decent range of spectrum or something though?

Definitely worth spending a ridiculously long time reading about spectrum etc. google scholar is great for reliable sources (not all however, still use initiative). There's a good one here called 'Plant Productivity in Response to LED Lighting' http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/7/1951.full

Recommends some use of green to stop bleaching that can take place with intense lighting..I'm thinking it has to do with carotene production.

I think its feasible to use just near white, cool white and far red LEDs as the whites ought to give enough of the rest of the required spectrum. Assuming you are meaning 30w per panel right? What kinda wattage you gonna go for per diode? you'll wanna think about how you intend to grow..i.e. scrog, trees etc as you'll need more/less penetration so higher/lower watts per diode..as far as i understand at least feel free to correct me lol also learning as I go :biggrin:

hempfield · Jan 11, 2013

I'm taking a chair in front row :good:

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

mixing WW+ NW+ CW in a 2:2:1 ratio is this for flower?

I'll need to copy someone else's LED assortment.

Guvoo used:
1 Cree royal blue (450nm)
4 Cree neutral white
6 Osram GD+ red
6 Osram GD+ hyper red

I assume with all that red this is suitable for flower.

I have to make some decisions, so I'll attempt to build Guvoo's fixture as-is for lower, and hope someone chimes in with a recommendation for modifying the LEDs for a veg unit.

rives · Jan 11, 2013

Rrog, there have been some very interesting developments in the white LEDs over the last couple of years. I haven't tried them for flowering yet, but I rearranged my VolksLED a while back with a ratio of (3) CW (1) 660nm and the resultant performance in veg is nothing short of amazing. I've used numerous different spectrums of CFLs and PL-Ls for vegging, and they cannot touch the results that I've gotten with the Volks.

Regarding flowering, I've had good success with both my Hybrid fixture and my Lumigrow ES330. The Hybrid would be hard to quantify with the (4) PL-L lamps mixed in, but with 180 watts of 660nm red thrown in (3x41 leds) it is heavily biased to "hyper red".

The Lumigrow has (40) 660nm, (10) 460nm, & (8) whites. It also has dimming capability on the reds and blues separately so that you can bias it either to vegging or flowering.

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

Thanks Rives-

OK so a ratio of (3) CW : (1) 660nm for veg works well for you. I'm sold. Guvoo has 17 LEDs in his snappy design. I could do 12 CW and 4 660nm and have that fit his box.

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

tenthirty · Jan 11, 2013

Definitely worth spending a ridiculously long time reading about spectrum etc. google scholar is great for reliable sources (not all however, still use initiative). There's a good one here called 'Plant Productivity in Response to LED Lighting' http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/...43/7/1951.full

Readers digest version.
NW is the Goldilocks light, per Knna.

If you look at the Elite Agro, a 2/1 WW NW would fall into this category.
The fixture that I built with the 660's does not perform any better than the fixture with
2/1 NW WW.

We have to remember that the bluer the diode, the more efficient it is. (more light less heat)
Also a blue photon is more energetic than a red photon. (greater potential differential and higher resonant frequency)
But......
The research states that it take 10 red photons vs 15 blue photons to complete a reaction. (more or less)
There is more going on behind the curtain that we just don't know......Yet!

One thing that peaked my interest in the above article, was the abnormal growths that were documented.
I was seeing something very similar to that under the HPS in the last 30 days after being under white led for 30 days.

If it was me, I would tend to stay away from single color leds.
Some combination of whites will work well. Somewhere between NW and WW.

Just my 2 penc.......

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

The joys of new technology... I really appreciate everyone's thoughts.

So 10-30, you'd vote for mixing WW+ NW+ CW in a 2:2:1 ratio?

rives · Jan 11, 2013

A couple of other things to consider in favor of the white LEDs is: 1) I fucking hate looking at the plants under that magenta light - it is impossible for me to figure out what is going on with them, and I tend to miss problems in the early stages. 2) While it is obviously possible to use a blue/red combination to successfully grow, I think that it is pretty absurd to think that the chlorophyll charts capture everything that is going on. I have difficulty believing that plants could have developed for millennia under broad-spectrum white light and have picked out only a couple of frequencies to work with. Take green light for instance - it was thought for a long time that it was useless to plants, but it turns out that the plants use it very effectively once the red/blue levels have saturated.

This is why I stress designing your fixture so that you can readily change out the LEDs - your thoughts on what is desirable are going to change as you use them, and it would be damn handy to be able to re-use the mechanical side of the light without too much effort.

habeeb · Jan 11, 2013

"I fucking hate looking at the plants under that magenta light"

amen Sir..

it feels "trippy" to go into the tent and see this nutty color, I've never really gotten use to it, and have been using led for maybe 3-4 years.

second, as rives said, you can't "see" the plant as well as you can under 'white'

it's why I built my bars, to get back to floro / MH color and be back where I like to view my plants.. another reason I even hate HPS, and would only use MH / sunpulse 6500k bulbs..

tenthirty · Jan 11, 2013

I wouldn't use the cool whites, more than 20-30% blue could cause problems.
I know that the orange spike in the HPS seems to cause problems.
I will be confirming that on the upcoming run.

Anything other than white light makes it very difficult for us growers to monitor the plants as well.

As a proficient grower, I would say that the white light probably adds at least 10% to my final yield just because I can see changes more easily.

Also, for the last 30 days under HPS, the health of the plants does seem to suffer compared to the first 30 under white leds.

The plants that were grown under the led party lights (first 30 days) seem to suffer less.

Surprisingly, the plants that grew up under the party light and sit on the edge of the party light/HPS are shorter for sure, but the bud structures are really good. We'll see what happens with the Elite Agro bulb in 30 days or so.

So the moral of the story is,
the ladies complain more if they get use to steak and lobster and then you feed them kibble.

rrog · Jan 11, 2013

That's funny!

Lots of great reasons to use white LEDs. Rives- I'm glad you mentioned about plants not growing on two wavelengths, and I was unaware of green being used once R&B is saturated. Very interesting.

So the idea of WW+ NW+ CW in a 2:2:1 ratio is used by some, but the CW may be a little blue heavy, even in that ratio? I thought there was some solid feedback regarding WW+ NW+ CW in a 2:2:1 ratio

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