Decarboxylation revisited

budman8 · Jan 20, 2012

Hello IC,

I have been trying to determine the "best" way to decarb my weed.

I have been experimenting for the last few months with temperatures
and times as variables. Then I was struck with a simple thought.
Is decarbing JUST removing water? If this is true......

Why can't you just weigh your weed to determine when all moisture has
gone? Anybody got scales? :smoker:

I have done this using a food dehydrator. Took about 8 hours (after a 3 day hang dry) for the sample to stop losing weight. I have been the happiest with
this particular result, as the result was the most potent smoke I have grown. The
icing on the cake was that after a couple of days, aroma began to return. A pleasant,
mouth-watering aroma instead of the burnt popcorn smell you get at the higher temps.

I guess my question is: Without higher temps, can full decarboxylation occur? Can
you rely strictly on moisture content as your guide?

trichrider · Jan 20, 2012

rub a little wiki on it.

it's a chemical thingy...evaporation may speed it up.

Decarboxylation is a chemical reaction that releases carbon dioxide (CO2). Usually, decarboxylation refers to a reaction of carboxylic acids, removing a carbon atom from a carbon chain. The reverse process, which is the first chemical step in photosynthesis, is called carbonation, the addition of CO2 to a compound. Enzymes that catalyze decarboxylations are called decarboxylases or, the more formal term, carboxy-lyases (EC number 4.1.1).

sorta related...

Pyrolysis is a thermochemical decomposition of organic material at elevated temperatures without the participation of oxygen. It involves the simultaneous change of chemical composition and physical phase, and is irreversible. The word is coined from the Greek-derived elements pyr "fire" and lysis "separating".

budman8 · Jan 20, 2012

Thanks for the quick response tr.

I understand the definition, but that doesn't really answer my question.
By removing the H2O, are you not releasing the CO2?
I am no chemist, so correct me if I am in error, but the group COOH
consists of CO2 & H2O? When H2O goes away due to simple evaporation, does it
not take the CO2 with it?

Duplicate · Jan 20, 2012

Disclaimer: I'm far from a scientist. Far, far.

The reaction is happening to THCA (our carboxylic acid). The CO2 is being removed from the THCA molecule turning it into THC.

trichrider · Jan 20, 2012

Duplicate said:
Disclaimer: I'm far from a scientist. Far, far.

The reaction is happening to THCA (our carboxylic acid). The CO2 is being removed from the THCA molecule turning it into THC.

yeah, this! in the equation, where do you see H2O? may just be ancillary to the reaction. is not the temperature above where H2O evaporates? my point.

budman8 · Jan 20, 2012

Thank you Duplicate.
Nothing like a picture lol

Ok, now my question is, strictly speaking, by removing the h2o, is
the co2 also eliminated? Is decarboxylation a function of temperature
or of moisture? may be a better worded question.

trichrider · Jan 20, 2012

temps.
works for removing both.

yoss33 · Jan 20, 2012

Decarboxylation is not just removing water but breaking the COOH group before that.
So you want faster breaking of the group and not just faster drying. Raising the temps does the trick.

budman8 · Jan 20, 2012

yoss33 said:
Decarboxylation is not just removing water but breaking the COOH group before that.
So you want faster breaking of the group and not just faster drying. Raising the temps does the trick.

So, you're saying the co2 can exist without the h2o?
Is removal of h2o sufficient to break the COOH group?

budman8 · Jan 23, 2012

anybody?

eloquentsoution · Jan 23, 2012

decarboxyation is a function of time and temperature. the less temp, the more time is required to remove the acid molecule. i have never thought about it in terms of water. i do know that the last to leave solution is co2, water bubbles are larger, so appears that more time is needed once the water is gone.

anyone else?

Skip · Jan 23, 2012

I'm no chemist or biologist, but doesn't our stomach transform the cannabinoids, breaking them down in the same way?

It seems to me that decarboxyation also releases the most volatile elements/cannabinoids, which are then lost.

When I've eaten hashish in raw form, it never failed to provide a full range of effects.

I've heard you supposedly get more usable THC from decarboxyation, but has this ever been proven? Please cite studies if there are any...

Update: I was just reading another thread and found this post that explains a lot!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4830103&postcount=9

budman8 · Jan 24, 2012

eloquentsoution said:
decarboxyation is a function of time and temperature. the less temp, the more time is required to remove the acid molecule. i have never thought about it in terms of water. i do know that the last to leave solution is co2, water bubbles are larger, so appears that more time is needed once the water is gone.

anyone else?

Thanks for the input ES.

Found this courtesy of Mr. Google.

http://forum.sensiseeds.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6571

Interesting discussion.

Seems as if the verdict THERE was that decarbing was a matter of drying and not a matter of heat.

RC Clarke's Marijuana Botany is cited a bit.

'"Once cannabis is dry, there's nothing growers can (or need to) do to help the process. Any heating of the weed after drying will not convert any more acids to active cannabinoids, but will degrade the cannabinoids already present."

I can't tell you how many hours I have spent looking for a comment such as this that even addresses H2O as the primary or only consideration with regards to decarboxylation. The poster is highly respected on that site and his word, from what I can tell, goes unquestioned there.

NOW lol. Can that statement be substantiated?
and the beat goes on...

budman8 · Jan 24, 2012

Skip said:
I'm no chemist or biologist, but doesn't our stomach transform the cannabinoids, breaking them down in the same way?

It seems to me that decarboxyation also releases the most volatile elements/cannabinoids, which are then lost.

When I've eaten hashish in raw form, it never failed to provide a full range of effects.

I've heard you supposedly get more usable THC from decarboxyation, but has this ever been proven? Please cite studies if there are any...

Update: I was just reading another thread and found this post that explains a lot!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4830103&postcount=9

Hi Skip and thanks for the post.

1. If I am not mistaken, the liver does the processing of THC. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong.

2. Using more heat when decarbing will evaporate more terpenes (the weed smell). These can be preserved by sealing your plant material during decarb, to some degree. This is really the main purpose of this thread. Is heat really necessary?

3. Never eaten raw, hard to comment.

4. I researched this particular point for weeks. I was able to find, but don't currently have the link to, a couple of research papers that did indeed indicate an increase of delta-9 thc. I have played with temps and times and all work, to a degree. My personal preference is the food dehydrator. Thermometer says it is @ 130F/55C. Only with this method (lower heat) or a longer jar cure, will any terpenes remain. Meaning, there is no weed smell if you have no terpenes. You may or may not notice a difference in your high with or without terpenes, but there are desirable and beneficial compounds contained in these same terpenes. That being said, I have had excellent results decarbing at all different temps before smoking or even vaping. I know many may think that is BS, but that IS mho.

Wow, that is wordy. Boiled down, decarbing is just an accelerated curing process.

5. Oh, yeah. Great post by a real gem. I've learned tons from reading BKS posts. Very detailed and informative. Gotta say people like her make the world a better place. No doubt. Sexy hands too :tiphat:

. It would be an honor if BKS were to post in my thread.

trichrider · Jan 24, 2012

this was about cooking wasn't it?
my word.

budman8 · Jan 24, 2012

trichrider said:
this was about cooking wasn't it?
my word.

LOL yeah I hear ya.

But, no it isn't about cooking. It's about decarboxylation using water weight as your determining factor as to when you can say decarb is complete. (Though I hope to move on to some cooking.... someday.)

budman8 · Jan 24, 2012

Skip said:
I've heard you supposedly get more usable THC from decarboxyation, but has this ever been proven? Please cite studies if there are any..

Found this nug.

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(04)00340-8/abstract

trichrider · Jan 24, 2012

so you're not going to eventually cook your product anyway?
cooking is going to decarb. this is the cooking with cannabis forum, i was confused as to what your intentions were.
not cooking? decarb with heat or time, utilize however.
peace

eloquentsoution · Jan 25, 2012

Skip said:
I'm no chemist or biologist, but doesn't our stomach transform the cannabinoids, breaking them down in the same way?

It seems to me that decarboxyation also releases the most volatile elements/cannabinoids, which are then lost.

When I've eaten hashish in raw form, it never failed to provide a full range of effects.

I've heard you supposedly get more usable THC from decarboxyation, but has this ever been proven? Please cite studies if there are any...

Update: I was just reading another thread and found this post that explains a lot!
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4830103&postcount=9

no study but can say a patient ate 1/2 oz in 12 hours and feltr no effect, but was completely happy medicating with the grape seed oil i cooked with cannabis.

to me, that fully demonstrated the need to decarbozilate, be it by a cooked extraction, vaporizing, oil bathing; all of the cannabinoids have acid molecules requiring removal for uptake, attached from what i have read.

budman8 · Jan 25, 2012

trichrider said:
so you're not going to eventually cook your product anyway?
cooking is going to decarb. this is the cooking with cannabis forum, i was confused as to what your intentions were.
not cooking? decarb with heat or time, utilize however.
peace

Well, I have attempted cooking... fail.
Sooo, starting over, ABC style.
A = Decarb
B = Extraction/Infusion (no need to really discuss that yet)

Just trying to learn what I can from more experienced heads to be
sure my decarb is as close to full as possible.

Decarboxylation revisited

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