Calculating Nutrient profiles for Canna, GH and PBP

A thread on nutrient recipes, and some reference links

Growing Greenhouse tomatoes
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/greenhouse_veg/pdf/GrowingGHTomates.pdf

"The cation exchange capacity of the soil
When small quantities of inorganic salts, such as the soluble mineral
matter of soil and commercial fertilizers, are added to water they dissociate
into electrically charged units called ions. The positively charged ions
(cations) such as hydrogen (H+l, potassium (K+l, calcium (Ca2+l,
magnesium (Mg2+), ammonium (NH, iron (Fez+), manganese (Mn2+1,
and zinc (Zn2+1 are absorbed mostly on the negatively charged surfaces of
the soil colloids (microscopic clay and humus particles) and exist only in
small quantities in the soil solution. Thus, the humus-clay colloids serve as
a storehouse for certain essential ions (cations). The negatively charged
ions (anions), such as nitrates (NO; 1, phosphates (HPO:?, sulfates WI-I,
and chlorides (Cl-), are found almost exclusively in the soil solution and can
therefore be leached away easily with overwatering. The roots and root
hairs are in intimate contact with the soil colloidal surfaces, which are
bathed in the soil solution, and therefore nutrient uptake can take place
either from the soil solution or directly from the colloidal surfaces (cation
exchange).

As plants absorb nutrients (ions) they exchange them for other ions.
For example, for the uptake of one potassium (K+) ion or one ammonium
(NH ion, one hydrogen (H+) ion is released into the soil solution or
directly into the soil colloids by the process of cation exchange. Similarly,
for the uptake of one calcium (Ca2+) or one magnesium (Mg2+) ion, two
hydrogen (H+) ions are released by the root. Thus, as the plant absorbs
these essential cations, the soil solution and the colloidal particles contain
more and more hydrogen (H+) ions, which explains why the removal of
cations (ammonium (NH ‘;I nitrogen is a good example) by crops tends to
make soils acidic, i.e., having a low pH. Also, as the plant absorbs essential
anions such as nitrates (NO ;1 and phosphates (HP0 4 ), the soil solution is
enriched with more and more hydroxyl groups (OH-1 and bicarbonates
(HCO; 1, which explains why the removal ofanions (nitrate (NO; 1 nitrogen
is a good example1 by crops tends to make soils alkaline, i.e., having a high
PH. "

The above article seems to suggest that K and Mg are stored in medium, whereas N and P are not. Maybe this leads to nutrient mixes like Canna Coco that are very low in K, and Mg, maybe because they accumulate in medium? But Canna Coco, and also Pure Blend Pro, are also very low in P, which the above article says leaches out rapidly. so I dont understand why those nutes are so low in P... maybe it has to do with their being designed for tap water, expecting the addition of pH down (Phosphoric acid), which adds P?

I was also looking for info on which nutrients are mobile within the plant, versus which ones are only stored in the medium and uptaken as needed (non mobile nutrients). I did not find that info yet, but invite others to point it out if you read the Greenhouse Tomato article.

Now for some heavy math based discussion of some popular nutrients

the following specs are in N-P-K-Mg format
canna aqua a plus b vega 6-3-8-1
Canna aqua a plus b flores 4-4-11-1.2
Canna Coco a plus b flores 5-5-3-1
Flora Nova Bloom 4-8-7-2
Flora Nova Grow 7-4-10-1.5
Flora Micro 5-0-1
Flora Bloom 0-5-4-1.5

from the above data, using pH's spreadsheet, http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/premixppm3b.zip
with weights checked, the following dosages produced the net elemental values for the following GH, Canna, and PBP formulas.. I strongly encourage folks to input the net weight of their nutrient bottles when using pH's premix spreadsheet. Thick products like FloraNova, especially benefit from this data, because it raises the net NPKMG calculations significantly.

note the Canna Coco Bloom recipe profile, it is about a 33% dilution of the 8ml GH Micro, plus 16 ml per gallon of GH Bloom formula.. (but with more Nitrogen).. Maybe medium based nutes are intentionally weak, so they accumulate in the pot?

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom, is my guru pH's baseline bloom formula (pH is a person) derived from the Mel Frank targets, which suggest a 100-100-200-60 goal for NPKMG values in bloom Both GH Flora series nutes and the Flora Nova series, achieve Mel Franks targets without additives. Here is a link to Mel's specs http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

8 Flora Nova grow. Flora Nova is the one bottle solution to nutrients, note this mix is almost identical to Canna Aqua Vega, and GrowGreen's Nute Recipe
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

8 fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

GH's baseline Flora Series, the 3 bottles, green purple and red, (different from Flora Nova series) veg formula
GH 15grow, 10micro, 5bloom
211
46
263
40

and GH 3 part bloom formula
GH 5grow, 10micro, 15bloom
159
92
219
66


canna coco 5.7a plus 5.7b (this is their baseline 3ml per liter formula), the highest dosage they recommend is 14ml/gal of canna coco A plus 14 of B). This mix (5.7ml/gal) is less than 1/3 strength of GH Flora Nova Bloom @8ml per gallon on the P, K and Mg..
N 87
P 30
K 43
Mg 17


canna coco 8/a and 8/b
121
42
60
24

Here is canna coco's strongest bloom mix, before the pk14 boost. it resembles the GH FloraNovaGrow recipe in its Nitrogen level
canna coco 14/a and 14/b
212
74
106
42

Here we see Canna Coco hitting hard with P and K
canna coco 14/a and 14/b plus 6ml pk13-14

212
177
317
42

pk 13-14 alone
0
103
212

here is Canna Aqua Vega at mfg rec of 3ml per litre each of A and B (very similar to GH's veg mix)
208
45
230
35

and here is Canna Aqua Flores at 3ml/litre each of A and B (it does not resemble GH bloom recipes, but is slightly similar to 15ml PBPBloom plus 5ml Cal Mag)
138
60
316
42

Here is PureBlendPro Bloom @ 15ml/gal
129
45
214
26

and PBPBloom 15, plus 5 cal mag (GrowGreen's formula) it resembles the grow formula of FloraNova @8ml, as well as GH's 15Grow, 10Micro, 5 bloom formulations, the most copied recipe Ive found. It seems competition only copied GH's veg formula for the most part..
Note also that GrowGreen has contributed a total nutes per crop spec, of 15ml per 40 gallons, or 20 ounces of PBPBloom per 1k crop.. a very interesting spec, resulting in about 5000 total ppm of N per croplife..
161
45
214
45

I dont know why Canna and PBP use such lower P and Mg levels than GH, nor do Canna and PBP hit Mel Franks 100-100-200-60 targets the way GH does. Yet folks with Canna and PBP produce excellent results, just like folks with GH do.

There does seem to be a difference in the design of Canna Aqua compared to Canna Coco, and PBP is similar to Canna Coco.. which leads me to think that DWC nute levels can be much higher than medium based nutes that expect accumulation to occur in the medium..

Bear in mind that when looking at Canna Aqua Flores, the K level is rather high, and this inhibits uptake of Mg, which is already a bit low imho.. I have heard repeatedly that Canna Aqua, AND Canna Coco produce Mg deficiency if not supplemented with Epsom at the rate of 1/4tsp per gallon...

I used to recommend PBP be supplemented with Epsom also, but Cal Mag is a better option, as it also adds N

I hope this thread helps to develop an archive of effective nutrient mixes. I can add analysis of other products and combinations if people want to know their profiles and are not spreadsheet savvy.

To do that, I need guaranteed analysis info from the label of the products being used, as well as the net weight of the bottled products.

for those not familiar with the origin of the "Lucas Formula", it was developed by pH in his Ebb/Flow system. I adopted his recipe for DWC, after learning about bubblers from Highgrade. I assumed that DWC and Ebb Flow could be fed at the same nutrient strength and ratios. It worked. I dont know why Canna and Botanicare (makers of Pure Blend) use such lower P and Mg levels.. Even if they are designed for medium, does not Ebb Flow have similar nute accumulations as medium based grows? Maybe not. Even though Ebb Flow does concentrate nutes in the rox between irrigations, they may be flushed out each time the flood comes, unlike the case with Canna Coco, or PBP in soilless mixes like Sunshine..

But to confound that possibility, here comes GrowGreen in ebb flow, using PBP, and its low P and Mg levels..

Its still a mystery to me why GrowGreen gets such good results from such low nute concentrations, whereas folks like ceteris paribus, also in ebb flow, get similar good results as GG, but using the Lucas Formula, with its higher P and Mg levels..

At this stage of my learning, out of all the possible systems and nutrients, Im inclined to recommend Ebb Flow with Flora Nova nutrients. I remain loyal to GH because of the simplicity of using no additives, and now also because the Nova series has everything in just one bottle.

The one reason to consider PBP in my opinion, is that folks think of it as "organic". To understand more of the details comprising the use of the term organic, check out this article on the GH website:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...icHydroponicArticle.pdf=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

"Many attempts have been made to create the perfect organic-
hydroponic nutrient, but so far nothing matches the purified
mineral salts used in formulating hydroponic nutrient solutions.
We note that the European Economic Community (EEC) has
established the category of "mineral organic" for foods grown with
the required mineral nutrients to supplement an organic base of
nitrogen. We previously touched on the fact that United States
agricultural regulations are currently set and applied at the state
level but practically all states prohibit the use of refined ingredients
to cultivate “organic" crops; only mined minerals can be used.
Surprisingly, this precludes organic growers from using
pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients to formulate fertilizers."

I hope others will help me learn more about the reasons why non GH nutes are so low in P and Mg..

Lucas

good to seeya lucas...i can attest to the 0/8/16 with r/o....man ive been doing this for a long time with NO problems....always turns out great...you saved me ALOT of wasted time...herbs

This site is starting to remind me home only now without the sickness.

Great read Lucas!
I grow using Canna Coco, so its helped me out a bit.

PBPro and coco dreams...

PBPro and coco dreams...

I grow using PBPro in coco with about 30% hydroton, you touch on a few of the problems.
The main problem with coco is the start up phase with fresh coco, even according to Canna using Canna coco you need to flush the medium with a calcium and magnesium solution to rid it of some K.
Alot of K is stored in the initial mixes leading to twisting of small plants from overlyhigh K levels, the intinial wash out will fill the K slots in the web for calcium and magnesium.

Bear in mind that when looking at Canna Aqua Flores, the K level is rather high, and this inhibits uptake of Mg, which is already a bit low imho.. I have heard repeatedly that Canna Aqua, AND Canna Coco produce Mg deficiency if not supplemented with Epsom at the rate of 1/4tsp per gallon...

I used to recommend PBP be supplemented with Epsom also, but Cal Mag is a better option, as it also adds N

Click to expand...

I agree calmag is the best option, the epsom salts should be avoided with coco, you'll know you added too much if the plants become a very deep green shortly after.
In coco the need for Mg is important but much less so than calcium and as Epsom salts have no calcium they wash out Ca from the mix, this is bad.
A Ca def can mask a Mg def and even an iron def, calmag has all 3 of these in balance, you'll recognize a Ca def. if you get white shingles and burt white tips on leaves.
A cal/mag solution is best, I use 2-3ml per gallon whether plain water or with nutes, i fortify every drop and have had no problems.

Thanks for the post Lucas, nice to have someone backing up their posts from CW and OG, most have been lost.

I must say I'm thoroughly impressed with the performance of the FloraNova line of nutes, even switching from the Gh three part in the 2:1 Bloom to Micro formula, there's been a lot more PH stability and no signs whatsoever of any defeciencies in a number of strains.

Cheers. Keep digging up the info

Damn good to see you Lothar, nice to have you here.
Too bad my coco thread got lost....these bitches are looking good.
I'm a little sketchy on posting pics for obvious reasons.

Really glad to have stumbled across this...I'm using PBP pro for first time (with RO water) and I've been fretting over the MG issue as my strain loves MG...I've decided to get the Cal-Mag plus based on the fact that Lucas says it adds N...but moreso, because of Jinxies assertion that I could have CA deficiencies (I use Lava as medium...rockwool as substrate)....thx everyone

Here is a quote from MyNamisStich def thread with regards to high K levels and why the K proportion in the PBPro and Canna are lower than most.

When you have too much Potassium in your soil, it can lead to big troubles, like salt damage and acid fixation of the root system, as well as too much potassium can cause a calcium deficiency. Your fan leaves will show like a light to a dark yellow to whitish color in between the veins. Due to a molecular imbalance, potassium toxicity can cause a reduced uptake and lead to the deficiencies of Mg, and in some cases, Ca. Also leads to the other nutrients to not be absorbed properly leading to lots of other deficiency such as: magnesium, manganese, zinc and iron and can cause problems with calcium as well.

Click to expand...

GH has LESS potassium than canna or PB

GH has LESS potassium than canna or PB

> Here is a quote from MyNamisStich def thread with regards to high K levels and why the K proportion in the PBPro and Canna are lower than most.

The K levels in PBP and Canna are actually higher than in GH

The recipe with the lowest K and highest Mg is from GH, not Canna nor PB

The recipe with the most P in it is also GH, not canna nor PB

> When you have "too much" Potassium in your soil

how much is "too much"?

I believe K levels become a problem above 400ppm, none of the recipes show that level

notice stich is talking about soil, where nutes accumulate more and more over time

In hydro, nute levels should NOT be accumulating higher and higher over time as they can in soil or coco.

The highest K level is in the Canna Coco and Canna Aqua, over 300ppm, GH and PB stay close to 200ppm

Canna is notorious for needing epsom salt to add Mg. Pure blend was the same way, until they came out with Cal mag and sweet, both of which are Mg boosters.

Lets focus on the K (Potassium) and Mg levels in GH, Canna, and PBP

GH FloraNovaBloom 180ppm of K, plus 62ppm of Mg
Canna Coco with the PK 13-14 boost they recommend; 317ppm of K, 42ppm of Mg
Canna Aqua Flores 316ppm of K, 42ppm of Mg
PBPBloom with Cal mag 214ppm of K, 45ppm of Mg

in EVERY case, there is LESS potassium in GH than in Canna or PB

afaict, Canna and PB work DESPITE having MORE Potassium, and less Mg than GH

Canna uses 3 products, A, B, plus epsom
PB uses 2 products
GH Flora uses 2 products
GH Flora Nova uses only 1 product

how many products would you like to be using to supply your plant nutrition needs?

Lucas

does epsom salts need to be added to canna aqua flora during flower, or just veg? i notice my system with canna in it produces very light green leafs.. plants will come out of the veg room with gh flora nova being really dark green then turn very light when exposed to the canna..

Lucas;

If you still have the nutrient reservoir add-back information, from the CW days, could you start another thread with this information? A lot of folks, on both sides of the Atlantic, either need a review, from time to time, or the information they may never have had access to prior to now. I'm adding back to my aero reservoir when it gets down by about 5 gallons, adding back 1/3 strength Flora Nova Bloom. My second setup is a dwc scrog, with 6 plants to run under a 400, with this one I intend on using an automatic float valve, topping up with 1/3 strength, as and when it needs it.

Lothar of OG;

I remember your 5 tube aero setup, where you said you used Flora Nova Bloom, almost exclusively now. I cannot, for obvious reasons, go back to re-read those threads, could you post what ppm levels you set your reservoir at, and when it needs topping up, how high do the tds levels climb, before you top them up, to the original levels? In my experience, the FNB is rock solid in pH, only changing slightly, as the tds levels climb, as the water/nutrients are consumed. In my books, stability is worth everything, the girls are really healthy looking, but do suffer a bit from N deficiency, before I top the res up, every 10 days or so.

tks to both of you...........DD

Dandy, when I'm using the FN, I keep veg levels to around 450-500 ppm (.5 conversion) and 900-1000 ppm in full flower. For mothers I keep things at around 500 full time in hydro.

Lothar;

Thank you for those numbers, muchly appreciated. I've been running about 50-100 ppm lower than these numbers, now I feel safe to bump them up a tad.

DD

canna + epsom, yes, addback 33% to 100%, try more N at begin Bloom, use full strength

canna + epsom, yes, addback 33% to 100%, try more N at begin Bloom, use full strength

> does epsom salts need to be added to canna aqua flora during flower, or just veg?

both formulas benefit from adding 1/4 tsp epsom (it adds 25ppm of Mg),

the Mg level of Vega is 35ppm, the Flores is at 42ppm.. I aim for 60-70ppm of Mg...

> still have the nutrient reservoir add-back information, from the CW days

no sorry, but, the concept is that if you keep the EC close to original levels, say 2.0, you dont need to dump your res for the life of the crop

some nutes like FloraNovaBloom, work with 33% addback strength

PBPBloom and FloraNovaGrow need higher strength in the addback, approaching 100%.. depends on the res size to light size ratio too

> a bit from N deficiency, before I top the res up, every 10 days

A current experiment that is producing encouraging results is to use FloraNovaGrow @EC 2.0 when starting a crop, topped with FloraNovaBloom for all the addbacks for the life of the crop.

Using nutes at levels below 2.0 is a good idea if the plants are under weak light in the <3500fc range, as from fluoros.

I find plant can use the full 2.0 EC even small plants, IF the light is intense, in the >3500fc range, as from HPS.

good to see the familiar handles
Lucas

Comparing the nutes elements per crop life with PBP and GH formulas.

Comparing the nutes elements per crop life with PBP and GH formulas.

Comparing the nutes elements per crop life with PBP and GH formulas.

This data is derived from calculating the total nutes required for a 40 gallon reservoir. For example, 15ml/gal times 40 equals 600ml of PBPBloom.

GrowGreen, who belonged to the gram a watt club, found she could use a fixed quantity of nutes per crop life. She dosed 50% of the total PBPBloom when starting a fresh reservoir of nutes at the beginning of 12/12.

Then at day 21 of 12/12, she would add in the remaing 300ml PBPB, plus the 200ml Cal Mag. 40 gallon res, ebb flow 6" pots of rox, 28 plants per 1k, with CO2 enhancement.

Using pH's spreadsheet, 600ml of PBPB plus 200ml of CalMag has the following Total NPK and Mg

GrowGreen's Formula 15PBPBloom 5Cal Mag
N 6420
P 1797
K 8552
Mg 1791

comparing the total NPK and Mg values in the above mix to the ones below, what stands out for me is the very low level of P in the PBP formula, and the low Mg level

conversely, what stands out about the Lucas formula is the low N level, and it has less K also

The original GH factory bloom recipe is higher in N than any of the other recipes, but we already know that the lower N level of the Lucas Formula also works. In the same sense, we know the low P level in PBP works too.

so I would say the hi-lo ranges of NPK and Mg in ALL of these formulas work. That is to say, the plant does not care if there is plus or minus certain amounts of NPK and Mg, even the huge percentage difference in P

otoh, IF the goal is to hit a ratio of 1-1-2 in NPK, the general hydro formulas come closest to doing that from a single bottle of ingredients. I find the FloraNova series very convenient.

General Hydro 5g-10m-15b
N 7659
P 4227
K 10050
Mg 3026

Lucas Formula (actually developed by pH) 8micro 16bloom
N 5186
P 4235
K 7311
Mg 2914

LucasNova Formula 8mlFloraNovaBloom per gallon
N 4960
P 4325
K 7204
Mg 2480

LucasNova Formula 10mlFloraNovaBloom per gallon
N 6200
P 5406
K 9005
Mg 3100

Howdy Lucas, the FNB/FLB is working well here still, better since I started doing my addback without adjusting the ph down into the zone. So my add back at 1/3 is 7+ ph. This has kept my ladies from bottoming out better, and I use just a bit of epsom on the girls that ask for it. I truely can not imagine the need to find any other nute solution for dwc, if my buds get any tastier, I will morph into a spice navigator and start folding space and time.
H

bump.
:kitty:

Thanks for the awesome info Lucas. I'm learning alot from your threads.

I use PBPB in Sunshine mix which is similiar to pro-mix. Basically a no fert soil.

I was planning on trying your formula, but then I realized that you were basing your calculations off the PBPBloom Hydro formula which is different then the one I use.

I use PBPB soil formula which is 1.5-4-5. So I downloaded the PH's spreadsheet and I think I came up with a good mix. The liquid Karma might not be necessary, but I have a bottle so why not? It does raise PPMs significantly though so a lighter dose might be better. The 10ml of Cal-mag is necessary for the Nitrogen and the Magnesium cuz the soil bloom formula has less nitrogen.

So here it is:

15ml PBPBsoil
10ml Cal-Mag
10ml Liquid Karma
2.5ml Pro-Tekt Silica

This gives you:
115
72
195
51

This mix comes out to about 1.8ec. I use tap water.
I have really good tap water that is around 40ppms.

Does that sound about right?
Also should I only water with 1/3rd strength everytime since I'm in soil?
What should the EC/ppm be of the nute mix when using a fertless soil?
I'd like to feed with every watering.

Hope that mix helps someone out there.