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Lapps got a problem with coco

L

Lapplandish

How long has this problem been going on? Less than a week
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? no
What system are you running? Handwatering coco
What STRAIN are you growing? Sensi Big Bud feminized
What was the establishing technique? Seeds
What is the age of your plants? Fifth week vegging
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now? Whole time
How tall are the plants? approx 30 cm, 12 inch
What PHASE are the plants in? vegging
What Technique are you using? just topped them, nothing special
What substrate/medium are you using? BioNova Coco Coir
What is the Water temperature? 18-20 celsius
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White and clean
What Nutrient's are you using? GHE Flora Series
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? 7ml each grow, micro and bloom per 10 liters tap water
How often are you feeding? every second to every third day
How often are you giving nutrients? every time
What order are you mixing your nutrients? grow, micro, bloom
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? 700 ppm
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 5,5 and let it go to 6,0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? yes
When was your last watering? yesterday
When was your last feeding change? went from 500 ppm to 700 ppm a week ago
How often do you clean your system? Run-off 20% every feeding, have flushed once about 2 weeks ago
What size bulb are you using? 120W LED
What is the distance to the canopy? 12 cm, 5 inch
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 10-25 % (winter)
What is the canopy temperature? 26 celsius
What is the Day/Night Temp? 19 - 27 celsius
What is the current Air Flow? 300 cfm
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? allways running full
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? no
Is your water HARD or SOFT? hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Are you using water from a water softener? no
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched topped
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? no
Are plant's infected with pest's no

Here's some pics from the plants.. Those lower leaves are getting crispy, but new growth seems just fine.. except for that not so green colour.. Whats wrong and what should I do with it?
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2

2Lazy

The lower leaves actually look like they are suffering from some mold issues to me. Nothing too bad, but you might want to get something like Safer's for mold. It could be a potassium lock-up due to a calcium/magnesium imbalance, but I'm leaning towards mold damage.

As far as the new growth looking yellowish, that's text book iron deficiency to me. Using some cal-mag plus or dolomite lime would fix that.
 
M

Massproducer

Member
Classic Mg deficiency, especially if you are growing in coco. I see no mold, a Mg def can cause every promblem you are having. Growing in coco you really need to add extra calcium and magnesium as both of these cations get depleted very quickly in coco. You may want to raise your PH as well to closer to 5.8/6 and let it drift up to about 6.5 to make sure cal/mag are being absorbed, which are locked out at lower ph's.

Good luck, check out some of the stickies in the coco section
 
L

Lapplandish

Thanks guys for answering! :)

I don't have cal/mag available, so is it ok to given them only epsom salt? And how much epsom salt should I give them? My tap water is 170 ppm and with nutrients it's 700 ppm, so what ppm level should I try to have there? Or should I just add a teaspoon per 10 liters or two teaspoons?
 
O

OrganicMonkey

Member
Looks like nitrogen burn, fact is that your PPM in the water is from lime. Lime is Cal/Mag, so I'd say that going from 500 to 700 in a week was just to strong. I'd drop back to 550, maybe 600, they will grow into that level soon enough. Molasses also has magnesium, just needs to be metabolized through the bacteria.
 
Snype

Snype

Active member
Veteran
Magnesium locks out at a pH of 5.7 and below. So you want to be above this. Bring your nute levels back down to what you had them at before until you fix the problem. MassProducer is spot on so do what he says and don't listen to anyone else.
 
Snype

Snype

Active member
Veteran
I love how some people can come in here and have no idea what they are talking about. Why say anything at all. This room gets so depressing.
 
2

2Lazy

Snype said:
I love how some people can come in here and have no idea what they are talking about. Why say anything at all. This room gets so depressing.
Click to expand...

You sure are a real peach. Who double posts in a thread just to bitch anyway...

Well, besides me and this prick?

Anyway, I agree it could be Mg deficiency, but I feel iron is a regularly over looked micro-nutrient which presents itself in very much the same way as magnesium deficiency. The reason I chose to go with iron deficiency is because it is primarily the new growth which is yellowish rather than an across the plant problem.

I also chose to bring up a possible mold problem because that's what it looks like, and if mold were going to appear it would appear on those lowest leaves.

Obviously I'm not in the grow room, and I'm only going off the pictures, and I'm not a botanist. I looked at the problems, compared to my 5 years of experience with every problem and solution imaginable, and gave advice.

Sorry if I'm new at this forum and I don't have 700+ posts but that doesn't make me any less "expert" as the next guy. I'm just a new, rational, voice around here and I'm definitely picking up on the hostility. Especially from you Snype, of all the people on this forum you are definitely the most like a screaming child.

Go ahead and cry, no one is listening.
 
hazy

hazy

Active member
Veteran
Snype said:
I love how some people can come in here and have no idea what they are talking about. Why say anything at all. This room gets so depressing.
Click to expand...

You mean like people who say things like mg gets locked out at 5.7 pH and below?
Hydro guys regularly run at 5.5-6.0. Mg gets restricted at 5.4 and lower. That said, I like to keep my pH in coco at 5.8-6.2+.

OP~ Since you use GH products, why not try a little FloraNectar. It has Mg, S, and K. I find I don't need the extra Ca, but extra Mg and K are good for coco.
 
O

OrganicMonkey

Member
Ya, if Mg was restricted at 5.3, then why are hydro guys running Ph at 5.3 with no magnesium problems? Can't say that it doesn't look like N burn, it looks like classic N burn. I run half coco at 6.5, no problems at all. The theory behind a lower ph with hydro, is to ward off root diseases. It seems to make Nitrogen to mobile, although I never saw magnesium problems in my
hydroponics running at 5.3! His ppm is reading 170 and that is all cal/mag, if you know a source of lime that isn't cal/mag let me hear about it.
 
hazy

hazy

Active member
Veteran
That's what I mean, OM. If Mg locked out at 5.7, we'd all be screwed. I said restricted below 5.5, not locked out. And those hydro guys walk the razor's edge. 5.4 in coco would be asking for trouble though, imo.
My real point is that I think the plants need Mg(the interveinal chlorosis), and K (the burnt edges).
One other thing is that coco should be watered every day. If you wait 3 days to water, you will start to get nute concentrations in the medium. Water with nutes every day.
 
M

Massproducer

Member
Bro I was the first to post so I guess I am a little responsible as well, as you can see I do not have 700+ post on this site either, but honestly fuck it.
Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way bro it truly wasn't my intention, I just wanted to post something quick. Sorry again if I got to ya.

Snype does really seem to try hard in this section tho, please if we can lets just cut him a lttle slack, please. Lets just all help each other become better growers, because I know that with my 7-8 years of growing legally and illegally, I can always use some pointers.

Sorry again 2Lazy

2Lazy said:
You sure are a real peach. Who double posts in a thread just to bitch anyway...

Well, besides me and this prick?

Anyway, I agree it could be Mg deficiency, but I feel iron is a regularly over looked micro-nutrient which presents itself in very much the same way as magnesium deficiency. The reason I chose to go with iron deficiency is because it is primarily the new growth which is yellowish rather than an across the plant problem.

I also chose to bring up a possible mold problem because that's what it looks like, and if mold were going to appear it would appear on those lowest leaves.

Obviously I'm not in the grow room, and I'm only going off the pictures, and I'm not a botanist. I looked at the problems, compared to my 5 years of experience with every problem and solution imaginable, and gave advice.

Sorry if I'm new at this forum and I don't have 700+ posts but that doesn't make me any less "expert" as the next guy. I'm just a new, rational, voice around here and I'm definitely picking up on the hostility. Especially from you Snype, of all the people on this forum you are definitely the most like a screaming child.

Go ahead and cry, no one is listening.
Click to expand...
 
O

OrganicMonkey

Member
hazy said:
That's what I mean, OM. If Mg locked out at 5.7, we'd all be screwed. I said restricted below 5.5, not locked out. And those hydro guys walk the razor's edge. 5.4 in coco would be asking for trouble though, imo.
My real point is that I think the plants need Mg(the interveinal chlorosis), and K (the burnt edges).
One other thing is that coco should be watered every day. If you wait 3 days to water, you will start to get nute concentrations in the medium. Water with nutes every day.
Click to expand...

Hydro guys just worry about root disease taking over a large crop, so they keep the reservoir 'shocked'. There are a lot of differences among ph levels and uptake availability, not counted for in the scale. With organics, nutrients aren't available until microorganisms break them down to be so. Different bacteria cultures, function differently among the ph range. I wouldn't be surprised, to find out that certain bacteria prefer one nutrient for dinner under specific ph conditions than they would under a different ph!

Soil is good, because there are natural battles to fight biological life out. With a sterile solution, such as coco or water, it's not the same medium for micro life. Honestly, the ph just needs to drift down when you are concerned about the wrong micro life growing. Cannabis enjoys 6.5 - 6.8, an occasional ph shock that isn't absurd isn't going to hurt but not required in a balanced micro life.

Remember that molasses and catalyst products, that are sweet for micro herds can also grow the wrong bacteria and fungus. I'm not trying to be hard on Snype, it's just obvious magnesium is a stress indicator not a long term total solution.
 
M

Massproducer

Member
I am really not trying to or going to argue with anyone but yes Mg does get locked out at these PH's that is why hydroponic growers are recommended to let their PH drift up which will also naturally happen if the solution is balanced, once the plant starts using the lower PH'ed N,P,K. But both ca and Mg get locked out. You can get more info by reading the sticky by my name is stitch.


Here is what it says about Mg:



Problems with Magnesium being locked out by PH troubles

Light Acid Soils, soils with excessive potassium, calcium and or phosphorus


Soil

Magnesium gets locked out of soil growing at ph levels of 2.0-6.4
Magnesium is absorbed best in soil at a ph level of 6.5-9.1 . (Wouldn’t recommend having a ph of over 7.0 in soil) anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.



Hydro and Soil less Mediums

Magnesium gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.7
Magnesium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.8-9.1
(Wouldn’t recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.

Are you disputing stitches information, that is stickied???
 
M

Massproducer

Member
You do not keep your Ph lower in hydro to shock your roots or keep them shocked, shock/stress is bad, so by constantly shocking you plant you end up with a room full of males or a room full of hermie (even worst). In hydro you keep you ph lower because the minerals are available at different ph's when they are left in solution.

Coco coir is far from a sterile medium, in fact coco breeds beneficals much better then peat/soil does does, it has naturally occuring trichoderma and because of its compisition the microherd loves coco. Now if you are feeding chemicals in soil or coco then your microherd is going to be limited, very limited. Cannabis like a slightly acid medium, not 6.5 -6.8, and any major ph swings are going to cause major problems, it is far from good. In fact when dealing with say 100% organics I honestly would leave the ph adjustments to the microherd, because ph swings kill microbes, that is a fact.

Mixing molassess into dechlorinated oxygenated water does not grow the wrong microbes at all, the food sources is not as important as the level of O2.

What do you mean a stress indicator, yes because it indicates that the plant is stressed from not having Mg accessible to it?
 
O

OrganicMonkey

Member
You are confusing what I mean by shock, I don't mean shock the plants. I meant shock the medium biological life, which prefer alkaline mediums most of the time yet they produce acids.

When a majority of the huge supply of fungus and bacteria life forms are grown in a petri dish, it's typically a slightly alkaline solution. A solution in a petri dish, that test at ph 5.3 will grow differently than a dish at 7.

If the ph of a medium is fluctuating, that means to me that chemical exchange isn't being controlled by me. I don't have ph fluctuations outside of what I add, I see all the change I need when I am waiting for the PH pen to register my influence to the solution while I am mixing.

I don't want the microheard to ever change the ph, they deal with the ph that I give them. If they are changing the ph, then that means something is changing in their environment.

Chemical nutrients aren't bad for microherds, they just don't feed them. When the micro herd metabolizes the organics that I give them, something is wrong if it effects the ph.

6.5-6.8 is a slightly acid medium, 7 is neutral.
 
M

Massproducer

Member
Not quite a ph of 5.5 - about 6.5 would be slightly acidic with 6.8 being basically neutral inho. If the ph of the medium is slightly fluctuating then as I said your plant is eating elements such as N,P,K which have lower ph's and WILL cause the ph of the medium to slightly rise. That is why adding calcium such as lime raises the ph because of calcium's ph. I control Ph by controling what raw materials I feed my soil as this will effect the concentrations of certain elements in the medium, as such controlling the ph.

It is almost impossible to control the slight ph swings that happen when you grow organic it is caused by the microherd breaking down the organic matter but it does really matter as much because this is the process of the microbes making the elements available to the plant. I honestly would never ph any living tea or bubbled solution, the acid can and will damage the microherd which i think you think are a lot more resiliant then the actually are, and yes chemical salts damage the microherd, in fact at a high enough ppm, the herd will be totally wiped out, that is why areas that are feed excessive chemical nutes outside have very poor soil, with little to no beneficals. That is not saying that you can not incorporate microbes and fungi into a chemical grow, but honestly what would really be the point, you are growing fungi and microbes to break down organic nutes to make them available to plants, feeding chemical nutes directly feeds the plant, while feeding organically you are feeding the medium which feeds the plants. PH SWINGS ARE BASICALLY AN UNAVOIDABLE aspect of growing with a living medium, that is why most organics are not really compatible with a chemically feed garden. Chemically fed gardens need to maintain ph to keep everything soluable, while almost everything is insoluable in organics before the beneficals get at it.

Read some of the stickies in the organic soil forum.
 
O

OrganicMonkey

Member
I don't believe you mass producer, chemical nutes hurt outdoor soil because they don't add organic matter that stays. That tiny root and stalk left after corn is harvested or other crops, isn't going to be very much for soil building.

The fact is NP and K can be alkaline, it depends what other element they are bonded with. We don't add pure NPK< we add a molecule that is typically a salt, but when it says insoluble then it's obviously not a salt aka or in salt form.

My plants uptake the acids that are produced by the microheard, so you have a nutrient toxic development when the ph is out of your capacity to uptake. ph 6.8 isn't neutral, ph doesn't exist on a scale determined by cannabis. It's a reference to pure science, outside of cannabis. It takes a very strong acid to damage the microherd, different bacteria favor different ph levels. It's that they do produce acids, so if your plant isn't taking up the salts that these form then ya it's to toxic.

I don't think ph swings are unavoidable, I don't see them unless I caused it. If see settling on the bottom of your nutrient solution, if matter falls out of suspension. Then those are insoluble substances, these can cause nutrient fluctuations as those don't register in your TDS or totally in your ph. These are unreacted as far as we are concerned, so when making teas be sure to see what settles and take what is a determined solution off of the top. That way you don't have undissolved elements that will be carried into your medium, become dissolved after microbial interaction, throwing your soil chemistry out of the balance you original planned.

That is why lime is a problem, it hangs around for a very long time and reacts poorly. Use it as a nutrient, simply give waterings at the ph you desire for 'buffering'.
 
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