Dutch master reverse, florel, and ETHEPHON.

So im 18 days into a 10 week cycle and i noticed some balls on my females. There was only like 15 or so, and i picked them all off. Should i still go buy dutchmaster reverse, or is it too late to use it?

From what i see, ETEPHON is the main ingredient in FLOREL and seems to be the same for DM REVERSE. ***Skip to the bottom part of this post for a quick review of all this info.

WIKIPEDIA......
Ethephon is the trade name of a plant growth regulator (basic manufacturer Rhône-Poulenc). Upon metabolism by the plant, it is converted into ethylene, a potent regulator of plant growth and maturity. It is often used on wheat, coffee, tobacco, cotton and rice in order to help the plant's fruit reach maturity more quickly. In cotton, which initiates fruiting over a period of several weeks, ethephon is used to make all bolls open simultaneously in order to enhance harvest efficiency.

Heres a excerpt from... http://www.montereylawngarden.com/info/florel/
Application must be made prior to fruit set; apply at the mid to full-bloom stage in sufficient water to wet (do not spray to run off). Good spray coverage is essential for complete fruit elimination. Application made too early or too late will also not be effective. Apply at 1 quart per 10 gallons of water (3 oz./gallon). The amount of spray used will depend upon the size of the tree. Temperatures at the time of application should be between 65 degrees Fahrenheit and 95 degrees Fahrenheit for the best results. Do not apply to trees that are under stress from disease, high temperatures, drought, etc.

Heres a exerpt from...http://floriculture.osu.edu/archive/apr99/florel.html
There are three main effects that Florel has on many of the species we grow in the greenhouse. First, it stimulates lateral branching and eliminates the need to hand pinch crops including geranium, both zonal and ivy, fuchsia, verbena, lantana, vinca vine, garden chrysanthemum, impatiens, and many specialty crops. It has been documented that replacing hand pinching with a foliar spray reduces labor and the associated costs by up to 80 percent. Cutting yield from stock plants can be doubled as a result of this stimulation of branching.
Second, Florel maintains a plant in a vegetative state while under treatment. Flowering is prevented while the plant is under the influence of the ethylene in a Florel application.
This is desirable for stock plant development as every bit of photosynthetic energy is channelled into the vegetative organs of stems, leaves, and roots instead of flowers. On finished crops Florel treatment early in the production cycle prevents premature flowering at the same time that it stimulates branching resulting in more efficient growth and development.
Third, Florel inhibits internode elongation and results in compact growth to accompany the branching effect. The best example of this effect is vinca vine, whose unruly internodes commonly reach six inches in length. By using multiple Florel applications growers can control internode length on this crop to any degree desired. This is possible partly because vinca vine is not grown for its flowers and hence can be treated very late in the production cycle.
All plants will outgrow the effects of a Florel application. The general rule for timing crop flowering is to allow six to eight weeks after the last Florel application for the crop to come into flower. For most spring crops the practical version of this rule calls for a mid March cutoff date for Mother's Day bloom.


So....
Wiki says...plant's fruit reach maturity more quickly.

Monterey lawn and garden says... for complete fruit elimination.

Floriculture says....

Florel maintains a plant in a vegetative state while under treatment. Flowering is prevented while the plant is under the influence of the ethylene in a Florel application.

...desirable for stock plant development as every bit of photosynthetic energy is channelled into the vegetative organs of stems, leaves, and roots instead of flowers.

...prevents premature flowering

...general rule for timing crop flowering is to allow six to eight weeks after the last Florel application for the crop to come into flower.

Very contradicting right? Thats what i said!!! The only thing i can think of this, is that ethephon is not in, or the same thing as Florel. But i read somewhere on ic that ethephon is in florel, and when i google ethephon, the monterey brand FLOREL is in the top ten results.
Is ethephon in dutchmaster reverse...?
Can anyone set all this straight?

The reverse is probably just diluted more.

So after further research i have found that Ethephon actually IS the active ingredient in Florel and Ethrel products. Now i just have to see if it is also the main ingredient in DM reverse. Anyone know for sure..?

If this stuff is in DM reverse, then why would i want to apply it if these sources are saying that its used for "complete fruit elimination" and "prevents premature flowering" and to "allow 6-8 weeks from last application before inducing flower"....?
They also say "Do not apply to stressed plants"!!! Are u kidding me!!!? The only reason your applying this stuff is because your plants got STRESSED and hermied out!!!!

Wikipedia completley contradicts these sources, and says that it makes "plants fruits reach maturity quicker"... If this is so, then why doesnt ductmaster reccomend it to be used for this purpose also..?

This is all one big mindf*ck for me right now, so if anyone feels like sharing any knowledge about this stuff, its greatly appreciated! THX -S'H

Most plants they are talking about have perfect flowers(male and female in one flower) mj obviously doesn't work that way. The instructions for florel are for perfect flowers. It basically makes the male part of the flower stop, hence why it works with mj. Fruit in pot are seeds remember.

Seeds arent fruit man. They are seeds, a reproduction source.

Ok, the calyx is the fruit with the seed inside.

probably another PGR
this stuff is poison I tell you

You can fuck around with poisons, or do the one thing that resolves it, kill the hermi.

little-soldier said:

probably another PGR
this stuff is poison I tell you

Click to expand...

Think about this the next time you eat, seedless grapes, watermelon or cukes, since this type of product was used on them.

Ethephon is converted into ethylene once it hits the plant. Ethylene is in a plant whether you put it there or not. Your just adding a little more than the plant naturally has.
Plus, if you look it up, its defenitley not one of the most dangerous things we use on plants.

Ethylene is pretty safe and natural. From Wikipedia: "Ethylene is the most produced organic compound in the world; global production of ethylene exceeded 107 million metric tonnes in 2005" It is used everywhere and is naturally occuring in all plant life, so choose your battles wisely.

I understand that it can be sprayed 7 days before switching to 12/12 and it will have many effects. It makes plants
1) shorter
2) closer internodal distance
3) higher yield.

We are testing this on OG and initally the plants are shorter than untreated plants. at 4 weeks. In 5 weeks might have an answer on final answers.

It DOES have physiological effects., that I can say so far. It will be interesting to hear what final effects are.

So to be clear, it can be used according to instructions at day one and ten of 12/12 for hermi and maybe increased yield.

Do first spray 7 or less days before 12/12 and get effects mentioned above (1,2,3)

more interesting stuff:
this article is obviously on spraying in early veg to stimulate branching which with C is not too difficult but they mention that there is a ton of off label uses so maybe its worth experimenting some with it. Then again, maybe not!

Using Florel Effectively
Terms & Conditions of Use

Once timing, application rate and crop susceptibility are understood, Florel can be an effective tool for both controlling height and promoting branching.
Many of the new vegetative annuals are quite vigorous and designed for use in larger containers. However, growers are also producing them for individual sale in smaller pots as well as mixed planters. Whether you buy rooted or unrooted cuttings, the problems are the same ? get plants to branch early to fill out the pots faster and control the growth late.

- Roger C. Styer

With more and more new vegetative annuals being produced, growers are finding themselves doing more pinching and cutting back to stimulate better branching and to control growth. Many of the new vegetative annuals are quite vigorous and designed for use in larger containers. However, growers are also producing them for individual sale in smaller pots as well as mixed planters. Whether you buy rooted or unrooted cuttings, the problems are the same -- get plants to branch early to fill out the pots faster and control the growth late.
Why Use Florel

If you have not worked a lot with Florel, you really need to start if you plan to grow vegetative annuals profitably. Florel is an ethylene-producing chemical that increases branching, takes off early flower buds in many crops and acts as a growth regulator. By spraying with Florel early, either during propagation or shortly after potting, you can get faster branching without pinching or with less pinching. Some growers will still pinch cuttings if the height is already too tall.

For most crops, spraying with Florel will also take off early flowers and delay subsequent flowering for a period of time. For geraniums, this re-blooming time can be 6-8 weeks, whereas verbena and lantana may rebloom in 2-3 weeks. Florel will not abort flower buds on some crops, such as mums, but will delay flowering if flower buds are not already evident. Disbudding may be needed during propagation with crops such as New Guinea impatiens to reduce Botrytis problems.

Florel also acts as an early growth regulator, although not in the same manner as other chemicals such as B-Nine, Bonzi or A-Rest. And, best of all, the cost of Florel is cheaper than other growth regulators and definitely more cost-effective than pinching or cutting by hand.

You can use Florel in stock production, during propagation or after potting. If you produce your own stock plants, spray Florel either in place of pinching or around the same time to increase the number of cuttings. Á Stop spraying Florel at least two weeks before you want to take cuttings, so you do not have a carry-over effect into propagation, which will delay rooting or cause more leaf-yellowing immediately after sticking.

In propagation, wait until you have some rooting and are weaning plants off mist before using Florel. Generally, spray Florel one week before potting to increase branching. If you want to take off early flowers in propagation, spray earlier but at a lower rate. After potting, wait until cuttings are rooting out into the new media before spraying with Florel. That means Florel can be applied about 1-2 weeks after potting and can be repeated 1-2 weeks later if needed. It may take a week to show the branching effects of Florel, so be careful about applying too frequently and getting too much effect. Many growers like to spray hanging baskets while on the bench or ground 1-2 times before hanging. Keep good notes on re-blooming times for different varieties in order to determine cut-off dates for using Florel.
How To Use Florel

Many growers have tried using Florel and found it doesn't work very well for them, while other growers have had excellent results on the same type of plants. Why? I have found growers do not know the key points for how to best use Florel. Here's what you need to know:

pH. The water in the spray tank after adding Florel should have a pH of 4.0-4.5. If you have high alkalinity in your water, you may need to add a buffering agent such as pHase5 or acid to lower water pH enough. Remember, Florel itself will lower water pH somewhat, so be careful about getting too low (pH 3.0), as you can burn plants. Growers with very pure water may need to add a buffering agent that will actually keep water pH from getting too low. Activity of Florel is greatly reduced if water pH is not correct.

Concentration. Use concentrations of 250-500 ppm for most plants. Normally, start with 500 ppm and see what kind of reaction you get. If too strong, reduce to 250 ppm. Sensitive crops such as any impatiens, bougainvillea and maybe some fuchsia should be sprayed with 250 ppm to start.

Timing. Use spray solution within 2-3 hours after making up, and do not hold overnight.

Application. Spray like B-Nine to run-off. You need to get coverage on all leaves and stems. Florel is not active in the soil through the Á roots. Leaves need to stay wet with Florel for 3-4 hours to get most of the chemical into the plant. Drying off too fast will reduce effectiveness and require a higher ppm or more frequent spraying. Select proper time of day to do Florel spraying.

Repetition. Watch repeated usage and determine re-blooming times. Crops such as verbena and lantana will need more applications of Florel and will re-bloom within three weeks, whereas geraniums may only need one application and take 6-8 weeks to re-bloom.

Special Circumstances. Avoid spraying plants when under stress -- not your stress, but the stress the plants are being grown under! Florel is a stress-exaggerator, which means it will turn leaves yellow or cause them to drop if plants are under stress. Make sure plants are watered properly and shade is closed before spraying. Wait for roots to come out first on a cutting or liner just planted.
Crops That Respond to Florel

The list of crops that respond to Florel can be quite long. I tell growers that any crop you feel needs pinching for better branching is an automatic candidate for Florel. A lot of work has been done by Dr. Peter Konjoian with different crops in an effort to get the label expanded. Much of the work by growers may be off-label, but it works. Table 1, above, contains a list of crops that respond to Florel, but by no means is this list all-inclusive. You need to experiment with Florel on other crops and keep good notes.

Florel works best on geraniums and other vegetative annuals that need a pinch to branch better. You can produce fuchsia baskets with 2-3 sprays of Florel and no pinching, and get a full-looking product. Ivy geraniums fill out hanging baskets with 1-2 sprays of Florel and may only need a pinch on overly long laterals. Bougainvillea will branch better with Florel but may drop leaves due to stress. Be patient, leaves will re-sprout at most of the nodes.

Florel works very well on herbs -- getting them to branch without pinching and acting as a safe growth regulator. However, herbs are not on the label. Some growers are trying Florel on vegetables, but you need to watch how much drought stress you are using or your tomato plants will turn yellow overnight.

Garden mums were one of the first crops Florel was used on effectively, but many growers are no longer using Florel on mums. This is primarily due to the newer varieties being better-branching with or without pinching, and Florel has a tendency to delay flowering on some varieties even when used near the pinch.

On poinsettias, Florel can be used five days before and after the pinch to bring all the breaks out more uniformly. This will change the finished shape of 'Winter Rose' so all of the blooms are held at the top, not the staggered look that consumers seem to prefer. If you have good-quality cuttings that take off well after potting, you may not see any benefit on branching with Florel, just a growth regulator effect. The jury is still out about if Florel is really needed on poinsettias.

Using Florel on stock plants and during propagation can remove or abort early flowers on many cuttings. Be careful about rates and timing to avoid too much stress or effect. In propagation, use 250 ppm to remove early blooms on New Guinea impatiens, double impatiens and other crops. Do your own trials and keep good records.

When the weather is really warm (greater than 90° F), you may need to reduce rates to avoid creating more stress on plants. With lower rates, you can spray weekly if needed. Poinsettias grown under high temperatures may need rates as high as 1,000-1,200 ppm to get an effect on branching. Remember, when using Florel, reduce your usage of other growth regulators during that period.

Here's the bottom line on Florel: Use it on a wide range of plants to promote branching, remember how Florel works and do your own trials. Once you learn how to use Florel effectively, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

little-soldier said:

probably another PGR
this stuff is poison I tell you

Click to expand...

Not all PGRs are evil poisons, triaconatol is contained in alfalfa meal. According to the MSDS on florel, it's basically only toxic in that it's an irritant if inhaled or it gets in your eyes (which, I would expect anything with a pH of 2.5 would do). It raises the level of ethylene in the plants, which is totally safe (ripening fruit gives off ethylene).

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=transformed+males
Thread on how to use ETHEPHON,
-SamS

10 days after Ethephon treatment. Before and after.

Avitas said:

10 days after Ethephon treatment. Before and after.[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=62870&pictureid=1484715&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=62870&pictureid=1484712&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

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WTF?