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passive plant killer

*mistress*

Member
Veteran
I agree both work and actually do hand water now (till i get my pressure biased pump). I use a res and hose and pump. how can you water with out a res of some type at least? Even a watering can (too small for the vol I need) has a res.
no longer garden, but in those days, it was simple.... mix 1-2 5 gal bucket(s) w/ cal-nitr8.... feed until runoff.... next day-2, mix p.k.s.mg.micros, mix 1-2 5 gallon bucket(s), feed until run-off.... what does `feed until run-off` mean?.... 20gal custom containers..... slightly raised over low-walled, wide catch.... pour water into container until run-off accumulates to ~1/8-1 in. depending on stage of growth or bloom.... roots grow from the container down into the shallow catch. the catch was shallow so that envronmental air-flow went thru the container (eliminating need for air stones, etc)..... even if the catch got 100percent dry, the roots will not perish.. feed until run-off conserves water and feeds only what the plant can consume during a given period, based on thier stage of growth and consumption....
I saw a study done in the security lighting industry that showed people would rather feel safe than *be* safe. I didn't understand this at first but came to realize that people would ignore scientific data and go with hunches essentially.
member jjfoo seem studied in the field of comp secure, & secureity.... just @ icmag for gardening.... but maybe you could detail the set-up of a secure comp or network.... how would you keep you out? smile....
If you are saying you can get more uniformity while handwatering, then you either are very talented or have never measured. Most people get the worst uniformity when handwatering. There are studies to show this. I like handwatering because it is *not* uniform, I mean my plants by the fan need more water to get a trickle than the others.
the uniformity was very simple.... w/ 5 gal bucket(s), use regular 32oz stadium cup.... dip cup into 5 gal, pour cup contents into 20 gal container.... repeat until either there is 1) adequate accumulation in catch, or 2) bucket is empty.... if adequate accumulation comes before bucket is empty, stop watering..... that was precise dosage for ea container. maybe 2 or 4 total... max 6.... maybe a 10gal if cultivar was short hydrid-type rose..... but, also ran 24/7 constant feed w/ pump.... in large open trough.... w/ same amount of accumulation @ bottom >1in.... no difference in growth or health of plantys... just tyme on unclogging lines, equalising pressure, & cleaning pumps, & trying to keep low level of run-off w/ pump still working on semi-dry pull (>1in).... in that type of garden, the same 5 gal bucket of nutrient solution was just poured into the single large trough, having 4 20gal under/side 1ks..... the work & tyme that maintaining the feed system took did not help in enjoying the garden.... fixing feed lines was not that fun.... simply pouring the same amount w/ a cup & then tending to tomatoes was more fun.... yes, plantys by wind (air-flow) will transpire more than others.... the wind is what carries the vapor away from the surfaces of the leaves.... uniformity can be achieved when the same cultivar is used thru seasons & can the gardener knoes how much that cultivar will use in a given span... the span can be 1 day, w/ several watering, or the span can be 2-3 days, w/ 1 watering.... but.... too much accumulation (height-wise) will decrease the ability of the plant to draw it up & out (of the leaves).... they seem to deisre only enough to make it through a couple days, similar to humans.... fed less, or just until fullnss, & performance seem to increase.... they (roots) seek water more & are exposed to more oxygen (less water present in media = more room for oxygen)....
do you run this much perlite and also handwater? If so, do you water more than once a day?
...perlyte is nice! thanks to ~SYK~ for pointing out its benefits over/over/over..... no, perlyte only needs watering once per day... it is one of the most versatile mediums there is.... the fine-small type holds lots of water, the capillary action is good, & the the oxygen content is good.... watering perlyte 1x/day is the easiest method.... the ideal mix is 30perlyte 30turfase 30pumice & 10coco.... re-used over/over/over.... no end.... but, 100persent perlyte is also just as good.... the only better is 50percent perlyte, 50persent pumice.... the pumice is a little heavier & helps to keep the perlyte from floating too much, or becoming too compacted, as it does not crumble as easy..... turfase holds lots/lots of water.... a sprinkle of coco may help to retain moisture & maybe hold some k & ca.... try 100persent perlyte, hand-watered 1x/day, & the hoses/pumps/lines may remain in boxes/on shelf/un-used..... just not required for very simple method & same results.... feeding more than 2 tymes per 24hr is not ever really needed, not even for flush..... just keep same 1x/day rate, & use water for last week....
Watering frequency is not the only factor in determining how much salt you deliver. The dilution of the solution maters. You can accumulate or actually provide too little, so the uptake of the plant would cause the salts to diminish. This isn't purely a function of watering freq. I do agree that in general sip watering (little here a little there with no runoff and high EC than the plants are metabolizing, which is a common problem) can lead to salt build up as opposed to a once a day watering for runoff.
salt-build up is a topic that can be difficult to discuss on these boards..... there is not a clear definition of it.... the only salts that could really build up in the media are some of the cations.... the anions charge does not let them bind to the collidial surfaces... this is why phosphorus, for example, is fed more in fields than in containers, because it leaches readily.... a garden fed 1x/day does not get a chance to accumulate anything.... the ph is stable for those 24hrs.... even after a pour thru the container.....
the tec was to provide just only what the plants are actually using.... during that period.... can break down ppms, ec, and even calculate the actual atoms in millimhos, but the key is to feed only enough that can be used during a given period....
plants perform cation-exchange.... this is an actual exchange of ions, or electrical charges.... they cannot uptake more than they need if more that that peak is not provided....'salt build up' is mainly the lack of stable ph, making whatever cations held in the media insoluble.... this is why an acid ph was used (5.0 ph).... as nitr8 nitrogen makes ph rise during cation exchange.... for the uptake of nitrogen ions, the roots release hydrogen or hydroxyl ions, increasing media ph, & making some elements that need a lower ph to migrate thru the roots cell walls, unable to do so....
if hand-watering, only until run-off, there is not 'salt build up' because excess salts that may become insoluble, are not over-applied.... somewhere in this thread is the nutrient profile that was used back then.... including ppms... which can be converted to ec, which can be converted to millimhos, per element, @ a given ph, if really into counting atoms of elements....
during those last gardening days, did away w/ meters, etc... just used regualr warm water.... 2tbsp of cal-nitr8 or 2 tbsp of p.k.mg.s, per 5gal bucket.... never mixed in same tank, but well-mixed... cal one day, p.k.mg.s+si+micros next..... 1/2tsp of ph down, or regular white vinegar.... last meter check was some where around 1000ppm (n+p.k.mg.s+si, not mixed together, applied over 2 days), 5.0-5.5ph..... then, it was not necessary to used meters.... even when added mag-sulf, or mkp.... just a pinch of ea during fruiting..... maybe it could get to 2500+ppm during fruting, w/ + of mkp, k-sulf & maybe some kool bluum.... & extramg-sulf (they really liked extra mg-s during first 2 weeks of bloom)....
pumps/hoses/lines/etc are not bad.... just not needed for optimal growtrh & fruiting.... if they make it simpler or easier for gardeners, then use them!..... some may have found, in distant tymes past, that simply dipping a cup in a bucket & pouring it into a container takes total of 10-15min, even for trees.... pumps were not easier to maintain, lines were not easier to keep clean, pumps+lines did not make plantys healthier.... if more moisture was required, simply feed 2 tymes per day, not more @ that 1 tyme.... the tec was to have only a slight, shallow amount of run-off, in a very large trough, w/ low walls.... this maximized the dispersion of the run-off, so that there was no puddle, but a general dampness, & kept the open-walled custom container exposed to air-flow of the garden.... roots grew into the shallow trough, & were constantly exchanging gases w/ the environment, thru porous perlyte mixtures.... never had issue watering too little, or feeding too little....
watering too much may make them drown, feeding too little of micronutrients can cause issues.....
using a full micronutirent-only mix every week-10days, should prevent any deficiencies.... of course, ea cultivar may require little more of this/that, but in general, a complete mix of around 500-1500 ppm, w/ lower ph (good) will keep media salts more soluble & keep most plants healthy.... 2cents..... hope this helps the thread..........
 
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bad gas

Member
IF: i have 4ea 4x4 coffins in flower. i'll have 4 plants per coffin for 16 plants lit by 2000w with adjusta-wing reflector and super spreader.
in my veg room, i won't use the coffin setup. i will use buckets for the lower reservoir just like you do here. i can easily group them under the light with smaller veg plants. thanks for the transplant info. veg has a 600w with the same reflector setup.
i see great minds think alike. your early system is the same concept. i can put a plastic saucer between the media bucket and the coffin to catch runoff. if i seal the saucer to the coffin, no leakage should occur.
i've read the entire forums for organic, indoor hydro, coco, security, and ppk. i have a stack of books more than 1 ft tall. the books were good basic knowledge, but icmag is like a college education. i had fun reading the ppk thread in particular. everyone here has such a high level of knowledge, it is rather humbling to someone like me whose previous efforts were at the hobby level where any results were celebrated.
i have 2 gurus, one who grew and one who handled the business/legal aspects. one of these people is a friend of the man who runs a dispensary so i have a basic network.
i'm trying to put all the good techniques together in one place. within the constraints of my available space i've optimized ventilation, lighting, co2, heat and cooling, humidity. with ppk information, i'll optimize method and nutrients. my fiance sees better than i do, so she's in charge of pest control. i'm maintaining a "clean room" just like moonshineman does. no amount of effort is too rediculas for someone as nerdly as myself.
again, thanks for your help.
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
i can put a plastic saucer between the media bucket and the coffin to catch runoff. if i seal the saucer to the coffin, no leakage should occur.
That ought to work nicely. Since you seem comfortable with working wood, you could also put a little rim on the top of your lid to keep it from running off the sides. Some inert caulk, paint it all white with a little latex... call it good.

You are vegging in 4x8 and flowering in 4x8, or did I get my numbers crossed?

Ohh... I'm not very proactive about these things, but climate control (i.e. humidity/temp) should be your number one priority! Everything else will kinda work if you get it in the ball park.
 

bad gas

Member
IF: my veg room is 4x8 and my flower room is approx 9x9 or 9x10 if i crowd that end of the room.
thanks for the drainage suggestion. i'll do that. i'll buy some more wood this weekend.
where i live the humidity is always approx 50%. my controller turns on the intake and exhaust fans whenever temp or humidity exceeds my limits. minimum temp turns on a propane heater. before i put plants in there, i'll run the room with some open water in saucers near a fan to test the system. at this time i'll also run the water system to insure proper operation. if all is well, the black domina strain from sensi seeds has been recommended on another thread.
when i was younger, i used to build airplanes. i even built a helicopter for a customer once. i like to build things. i figure if you can overhaul jet engines, you can learn most anything. i'd still be doing it, but the money went away from aircraft and so did i.
if you have other suggestions for strains, i would listen. thanks. i hope to have a crop in containers within a month or two depending on life's variables.
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
my controller turns on the intake and exhaust fans whenever temp or humidity exceeds...
Sounds good. Your temps have a top and a bottom range... but don't overlook maintaining a baseline humidity too. As your garden gets up and running, you might find that you only need to reduce it due to overall grow conditions. In some cases, however, it might be good to bump it up. If you haven't looking into Vapor Pressure Deficit, that's a good place to start. Links are somewhere in this thread...

If you are interested in immediate success, I would suggest taking advantage of your two friendships and grabbing a known strain or two so you know that you've got your hands on a pheno has already been selected for it's qualities. Run as much of your flower room with that (those) strains as you need to have for a predictable harvest; then play around filling space with exploratory genetics.

Choosing your genetics should match your needs and space: do you need a heavy pain reliever combined with something that stretches at the onset of flower? These are the decisions you have to make...
 

jjfoo

Member
this is an actual exchange of ions, or electrical charges.... they cannot uptake more than they need if more that that peak is not provided....

Plants can take up some salts selectively but a high salt balance will move into the plant (via osmosis) and can accumulate in the leafs (as they transpire) which can burn the leaves. Too high of salt level can also pull moisture out of the plant (osmosis) and cause them to exhibit signs of under watering even while dripping wet.
 

bad gas

Member
IF: i'll check out vapor pressure deficit. i'm doing my research now before i start. i'd rather have my ducks in a row rather than figure out problems i should have prevented earlier in the process.
to start with, i can get clones from the dispensary. as you suggest, i'll do what's proven to begin with. once i prove i can successfully do this, i'd like to buy awesome genetics and phase them in. in my area we've never had this quality available to anyone i know.
i read about all the people on icmag smoking stuff that will tranquilize an elephant and it's considered almost bad manners to hand someone a pipe or bong that doesn't have a "freshie" in it. i think these people live on another planet. i'd like to live there too.
i think i can. i've always done well at anything i've tried because i always do my best and i'm definitely not lazy. obsessive might more adequately express it.
thanks for your input. talk to you later. bg
 

ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
i'd like to buy awesome genetics and phase them in
Pheno selection is an art/science in itself.

Some folks hit their mother on the first seed. Some pop thousands to find what they are looking for.

I've heard it said that from seed, a plant should be given around 2.5 months to 'stabilize' genetically, by which I infer 'develop to mature adulthood', by which I mean 'demonstrate a more full expression of it's genetic potential.'

Then you flower. Then you watch and sniff and touch and think about it. And then you cure. And then you sample. And then you scratch your head and think about it.

Then you select.

Then you run again.

Then you watch and sniff and touch and think about it. And then you cure. And then you sample. And then you scratch your head and think about it.

Then you select again...

For example, in this thread, D9 reports taking two years to select his Sweet Tooth line.

In the mean time, you have run your dispensary-clone through umpteen harvests.

And the wheels kept turning the whole time.

in my area we've never had this quality available to anyone i know.
Just a general caution, not specific to you (necessarily): This garden is your work. The flower's you grow will be the results of your labor. It will be enticing to claim them. But is that in your best interest from the perspective of security, or perhaps more importantly, your inner balance?

Ultimately: is the power of the flower yours? Or are you really a facilitator, an agent of the flower itself? Do you want to claim it's magic? Or simply bring more magic to the world?

There are opposite ways of understanding your labor. Embracing a role clearly can become a foundation of all gardening decisions, lending guidance, continuity and purpose.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
hey, bad gas, i remember you! you sat in front of me in the third grade!

welcome! looks like you are already in the capable hands of our resident philosopher.

i have thought about building a big flat box out of wood and fiberglass it or shoot a rhino liner on it and cutting holes for the tailpieces. i don't see why it wouldn't work.

if you have built aircraft this is adult tinkertoys. good luck!

d9
 

bad gas

Member
D9: thanks for the welcome. IF has been guiding me well. after all, our personal philosophy guides our every action. if we are not in harmony within ourselves and our world, our disharmony will be reflected by excessive problems in our lives. i am more fortunate than most people. i have known my close friends for almost 30 years. we all have responsible [non piss-testing] jobs and none of us lives from paycheck to paycheck or have personal drama in our lives. low key is the philosophy. they have been married forever. my fiance and i fit well together and will be married next year. we get together once a week for band practice [pink floyd and tom petty] and have bbq occasionally.
i don't want to be famous as the best grower on earth. i don't even want anyone to know i garden. i'll provide meds to the dispensary for some extra retirement income and personal stash for me. all i have to do is be worthy.
IF: i hear you about selecting good mother stock. i remember where D9 said it took him 2 years to get his. so far my security is good. my gurus know. 2 of my oldest friends know and help me when i need help. my fiance knows and applauds. no one else. i have never visited a hydro store. nothing is shipped to my grow location. no credit cards. DIY as much as possible. one of my friends who doesn't smoke[one of the people i mentioned above] bought my lights. again thanks for the guidance. your words will not fall on deaf or unappreciative ears. btw, this computer is not linked to me in any way. thanks. bg
will close for now, i have work to do . i'll check back later.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
Hey delta, coming back with a question. I picked up a couple of valve stems and some 3/16 ID tube cribbing off page 44:


I remember you saying it was easy to just pinch off the end so you could move/empty a plant when going from veg to flower. So I was trying to figure out how the thing worked with some plastic coffee cans and I was wondering about how you pluck the tube off, do you pinch the tube on one part with one hand, the valve stem with the other hand? Just to make sure, you did pull out the little compression fittings from the stems, right? I feel like an idiot for even asking... anyway, is it a two handed pinch at the same time, which stem do you pull the tubing from (control or plant), do you raise the hose or plant or what? I gotta be missing something obvious.

-
Sounds like a cool variation bg.


hey, griptape! sorry it took so long to answer. i think a photo is best. you do need to remove the stem.
 
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ImaginaryFriend

Fuck Entropy.
Veteran
Ultimately: is the power of the flower yours? Or are you really a facilitator, an agent of the flower itself? Do you want to claim it's magic? Or simply bring more magic to the world?

There are opposite ways of understanding your labor. Embracing a role clearly can become a foundation of all gardening decisions, lending guidance, continuity and purpose.
There was a whole fucking ream of paper in my fortune cookie at lunch yesterday.
 

delta9nxs

No Jive Productions
Veteran
hi, mistress! been a while. yep, i know what you mean. growing pot was so much more simple in the good old days. people with experience growing vegetables and houseplants had no problems growing a pot plant or two.

now we are experiencing a huge surge of "small indoor growers" who are trying to max their yields. a lot of them have no previous experience growing anything but are very intelligent and want to understand the science of it.

in addition, newer techniques are now regularly producing yields largely unheard of just a few years ago. even in untrained hands.

there have always been individuals capable of getting the most out of their plant but most folks need a track to run on, at least at first.

no, the ppk is no longer passive. i guess it should now be called the "powered plant killer". that way we could still call it the ppk.

you remember i began hand watering the first ones. once a day. i also have hand watered hundreds of plants in all types of other containers. you remember the yields from the first part of the thread. i'm now pulling nearly twice that.

i now want to show the heaviest yielding plant i have ever personally grown. you all have seen the pics from several weeks ago and it is dry enough to call weight.

this plant is the first in a 3.5 gal container instead of a 5 gal one. it is the first with the new precision hole pattern which was arrived at by studying commercial designs. it also was vegged 5 weeks instead of my normal 6.

it was fed jack's and calcinit at 600ppm or ec 1.2 for life. i never checked ph and have packed away my meter. no ph adjusters were used.

pulse frequency was once per hour and and 16 oz's volume. this includes the dark phase as i feel i'm watering the medium, keeping it right for the plant.

i just want to say that there is no way i could have grown this plant hand watering. unless i were to hover over it all day and night dispensing precision amounts of solution on a precise schedule.

my medium stays wet yet the plants display no signs of over watering because the design eliminates the perched water table from the root chamber.

keeping the medium wet denies the opportunity for much salt concentration to occur. it does not accumulate salts as it does not allow drying. drying concentrates salts.

the pulsed solution disperses better in a wet medium than a dry medium because of the principle of hysteresis. water "wants" a pre-wetted pathway. microscopically it "jumps to wet" and resists going into "dry". hydrophilic and hydrophobic. hydraulic conductance. i call it the "hook up". letting a medium dry too much can cause "channeling" where the water avoids dry areas and runs through the pot in the same path every time.

the pulsing motion moves far more gas around in the root zone than allowing the pot to dry out. it acts like a big plunger pushing and pulling gas around as it falls. especially with the new hole pattern which is in the bottom 1/3 of the pot sidewall only.

this moves air from the top of the container downward and out of the holes, pulling fresh air behind it.

and we haven't even mentioned air embolisms that occur in the xylem when under watered. each time it happens the damage is irreparable and will impede further growth of that branch or stalk.

intentionally letting your plants dry out is like playing russian roulette. you get away with it a few times and then you don't.

plants in a ppk will never be under or over watered because we have built in tools for precision control of water and air in the substrate. it is adjustable.

mistress, you know i always appreciate your input but i felt i needed to talk about this a little as the techniques you are describing were not applicable to this device. you know when to water your plants, most people don't.

well, here are the plant pics again. sorry, but i wanted them all on the same page one time.

oh, by the way, it weighs 636 grams or 22.43 oz's.

d9
 
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huntingbb

Member
hi, mistress! been a while. yep, i know what you mean. growing pot was so much more simple in the good old days. people with experience growing vegetables and houseplants had no problems growing a pot plant or two.

now we are experiencing a huge surge in "small indoor growers" who are trying to max their yields. a lot of them have no previous experience growing anything but are very intelligent and want to understand the science of it.

in addition, newer techniques are now regularly producing yields largely unheard of just a few years ago. even in untrained hands.

there have always been individuals capable of getting the most out of their plant but most folks need a track to run on, at least at first.

no, the ppk is no longer passive. i guess it should now be called the "powered plant killer". that way we could still call it the ppk.

you remember i began hand watering the first ones. once a day. i also have hand watered hundreds of plants in all types of other containers. you remember the yields from the first part of the thread. i'm now pulling nearly twice that.

i now want to show the heaviest yielding plant i have ever personally grown. you all have seen the pics from several weeks ago and it is dry enough to call weight.

this plant is the first in a 3.5 gal container instead of a 5 gal one. it is the first with the new precision hole pattern which was arrived at by studying commercial designs. it also was vegged 5 weeks instead of my normal 6.

it was fed jack's and calcinit at 600ppm or ec 1.2 for life. i never checked ph and have packed away my meter. no ph adjusters were used.

pulse frequency was once per hour and and 16 oz's volume. this includes the dark phase as i feel i'm watering the medium, keeping it right for the plant.

i just want to say that there is no way i could have grown this plant hand watering. unless i were to hover over it all day and night dispensing precision amounts of solution on a precise schedule.

my medium stays wet yet the plants display no signs of over watering because the design eliminates the perched water table from the root chamber.

keeping the medium wet denies the opportunity for much salt concentration to occur. it does not accumulate salts up as it does not allow drying. drying concentrates salts.

the pulsed solution distributes better in a wet medium than a dry medium because of the principle of hysteresis. water "wants" a pre-wetted pathway. microscopically it "jumps to wet" and resists going into "dry". hydrophilic and hydrophobic. hydraulic conductance. i call it the "hook up". letting a medium dry too much can cause "channeling" where the water avoids dry areas and runs through the pot in the same path every time.

the pulsing motion moves far more gas around in the root zone than allowing the pot to dry out. it acts like a big plunger pushing and pulling gas around as it falls. especially with the new hole pattern which is in the bottom 1/3 of the pot sidewall only.

this moves air from the top of the container downward and out of the holes, pulling fresh air behind it.

and we haven't even mentioned air embolisms that occur in the xylem when under watered. each time it happens the damage is irreparable and will impede further growth of that branch or stalk.

intentionally letting your plants dry out is like playing russian roulette. you get away with it a few times and then you don't.

plants in a ppk will never be under or over watered because we have built in tools for precision control of water and air in the substrate. it is adjustable.

mistress, you know i always appreciate your input but i felt i needed to talk about this a little as the techniques you are describing were not applicable to this device. you know when to water your plants, most people don't.

well, here are the plant pics again. sorry, but i wanted them all on the same page one time.

oh, by the way, it weighs 636 grams or 22.43 oz's.

d9

o m f g - Sir, what an unqualified success!! My girlfriend was eating ice cream, and saw the buckets - the cone went all over - i think i saw drool lol... :) (NO ONE TELL HER I POSTED THAT!!!! >.>) :laughing::laughing:(that's us there)

I've been having a bit of issues with the tire valves i got at wally's world lol - my half inch hose is a bit large for the large bit, and my small hose is 1/4" OD i think.. but i was able to warp the 1/4" and trim the end at an angle, and SCREW that crap on -- talk about a tight seal lol... Anyway, I'll be messing around, i suppose I'll have to get diff hose, any issues with the lowes black?

I'm still not ready for your setup, but have a count reduction / size increase plan.. dang.. anyway keep growing and posting, srsly your an inspiration :thank you:


BTW - i fall in a third group - new growers who did grow stuff, just not for many years!


:groupwave:

Yeah.

636.

In 105 days.

Time to give up that pheno.

Good choice, there d9.

Good choice.


Give up!! Evil words... Maybe you meant share? lol... :plant grow::smoke out:
 
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