coco+wick+gh flora nova=never dump run-off|pdg’s imaginary/enjoyable garden

bonecarver_OG · Oct 13, 2009

*mistress* said:
already done it several seasons... works very well...

then why comment? @ least read entire thread 1st...

that is a pretty bold prediction for one that has not even read entire thread, nor attempted passive hydro...
unfortunate for those garden/ers... sorry about their luck. have had nothing but stellar results... a couple magazines are referenced in this thread. from ht & heads, circa seven 360's ago (02)...

please dont get upset, i got a lot to do and a little time

i comment because we in the coop have long experience in using coco and my aim here on icmag is to show people ways of growing best possible cannabis in coco.

anyway

its FUN to talk about our interests!

no... incorrect...

there is no salt build-up... no more than any other system... gardener has option of raising container holding plant above 2nd bucket/tote, if dont want container resting in water...

the plant is either top-fed or bottom-fed. they are only feed nutes ~1-2 times per week. the plants themselves are only watered 1-2 times per week... so, it is feed - water - feed - water...

humic acid easily buffers any high ppms that accumulate in the bottom container (res).

the biggest problem when growin in coco is build up and locking of positivelly charged nute particles.

the high ec will be in all over the coco, unless flushing hard.. - our 15 year+ of coco growing experience in the coop has shown us this. when the plants grow in coco that has higher ec in late flowering the resuslts are worse.

why would not the coco you use have same effect as the rest of coco in the world when it comes to locking in magnesium and calsium?

atm i dont know of any manufacturer of coco for hydroponic use that recomends this method at all because of the specific problems.

its well known K+,Ca2+, Mg2+, Fe2+, Mn2+, Cu2+, Mn2+, Zn2+,Co2+ are all examples of cationic plant nutrients. these get all locked by coco coir.

veg here is @ least 4-8 weeks, under 1k's... 4-5 gallon buckets, 10 gallon totes... no issues w/ salt build-up... this may have something to do w/ simply watering less, as was discussed in another thread...

the plant only draws up the water &/or nutes it wants...

passive plant killer similar...

My 2009 grow thread with a test of my new irrigation system similar...

The Guerrilla irrigation thread: Automatic systems, selfwatering planters and more! a few...

there are others... passive hydro is not new...

havnt looked enough to see, or dont want to be open to seeing... works w/ many different media... coco is not limited to conventional growing practices, by conventional growers; nor is this gardener limited by other gardeners' views...
no soil related posts... are you the auditor for coco growing methods? dont recall asking for approval to go beyond what is thought by them/you to be doable... already been done successfully, thank you very much...

"mistress - thank you for sharing this beautiful method with us. I have just started some clones in blazeoneup's soil recipe in smart pots. it is another kiss method with pre fertilized soil and just add water (top side.) "

thats soil-related to me hehe

i know coco is a medium that alovs for several methods etc.

but as i have stated before - the best results will come from taking advantage of the specific abilities of coco, if not the results will not be compare to conventional hydro.

stating what cant be done prior to doing adequate research into subject-matter/topic could be considered presumptuous...
--
edit - joined twp posts not to occupy too much space

uuh thats not nice

are going over to name calling now? ^^

in what way do you think i lack knowledge in coco? as i said 15 years experience in the coop

i get good to exceptional results and i have pictures to proof it and im not afraid to share my knowledge in any way.

--
why are you stuck on the flush?
dont baby plants... when get around to testing ec/cf/ppms, etc, run around 1400 ppms on dipstick/nutra-wand scale... that translates to ec 2.0 on that meter... ph is what gh fnb settles to, around 5.8-6.2... occasionally (mostly in early flower) lower ph w/ distilled vinegar to 5.5 or so... depends... generally just permit ph drift...

flushing in coco is the only way to guarantee best results. see earlier stated facts.

"babying" plants is the only way to get best results.

our experience says to us most strains we have grown have performed better when flushed properly.

best method to measure is to compare buds

buds grown in coco not properly flushed because of economy and lack of distilled water:

these plants were handwater with minimal flushing and feed a low nute diet.

buds flushed out properly, grown with water with much less EC than above.

you can see how the calyx size is more than 4x bigger than in the pic above, and the resin coverage has multiplied.

obviously both nugs are nice, but the later produced about 4-5 times bigger yield, has more flavour, is more potent and better quality in many ways.

i prefeer the later nug , and i think most growers would too.

your difficultly conceptualizing the method is not due to lack of descriptions/depictions & detailed data sets, contained in this thread...

however, if you have more specific questions, will field them here for you & other gardeners...

dont post pics of garden; so if that is what is sought, simply ignore this thread... if realities change, may consider it... have lurked since og/cw...
there are gardeners here that have posted similar set-ups on icmag... w/ pics...

awesome

gimme a link to a coco grow done like this.

not about being lazy... about not wasting water or nutes &/or over-watering/under-watering plants... also about reducing inputs to garden.

didnt mean that in a bad way - but its still obviously less work than my current method of 100's of liters of drain to waste (well i recycle all my drain water for my the garden of my house. most flowers and veggies dont mind it at all)

all my best results i have gotten doing the oposite to above mentioned method, this is why im perplexed at the claims of this method being able to give similar results.

ran kbs w/ pumps, soaker hoses, etc... ran aero buckets w/ little-no media... just machines to get in way of paying attention to plants... hand-watering is good, but gardeners can easily over-water; when watering is entirely based on their preference... w/ wicks, the plants drink when they want & eat what they want...

the filosofy behind most hydroponics is that you decide when and what your plants eat so you can increase the yields.

this is the sole advantage of traditional hydroponic thinking, when it comes to yield quality

top class results are more based on the skills of the gardener, than the system used, ivho... you cannot draw a rational conclusion that 'class' or quality will diminish because the plant was grown using passive hydro... nearly equivalent to a dwc grower saying that they get more yield out of dwc; or tag is far superior to low-pressure aero...

any method can be used to grow top class or low class fruits & veggies & herbs... mistressing the system that suits your own situation seems key...

fwiw, current nutes are entire general organics line... nice perky results after application... contains alfalfa meal... going to run next to standard gh fnb (@15ml gal) & floralicious bloom...

hope this helps. enjoy your garden!

no, i know you dont post pics, thats why im in general making an open question to anyone flowering using this system - please show me wrong

the statement about "top class results are more based on the skills of the gardener" is a bit naive, since if you dont have in mind the medium and how it works its IMPOSSIBLE to take advantage of medium specific abilities, and thus the results will allways be lesser to some extent, than if you would have in mind also the specific abilities of the medium. this is very basic gardening and i think most people do undertand this. this is one of the most important reasons to why there is a SCIENCE called agronomics. the thought is to improve yields and qaulity takeing the advantages of the medium to a max

i think all experienced growers will agree on that?

i think this part is not too strange? i think its in the interest of any grower to maximize yeilds and quality of it.

peace

bonecarver_OG · Oct 13, 2009

some interesting info relating to coco:

Coco Coir (Fr: Advanced Nutrients https://www.advancednutrients.com/ad...ID=462&catID=6)

Coir has become the standard medium of choice for many hydroponic growers. Cubes and bales of highly refined and uncontaminated coir are marketed around the world for greenhouse growing. Growers use coir for incorporation into soil mixes and grow hydroponically in 100% pure coir.

When sourced from horticultural suppliers, coir is a substrate that has reliable properties of water holding capacity, drainage and cationic exchange. Compared to peat moss, coir has a more ideal pH range, well above the acidic ph of Peat moss. Coir is unique in exhibiting very little shrinkage or settling of the medium as it ages; because of it’s complex cellulose and lignin make up, it does not decompose or ‘collapse’ with age and exposure to oxygen.

Coir is an abundantly available and easily processed natural by-product of the coconut farming industry. Coir is essentially the coarse, granular “dust” that is generated when the large, spongy husk of a coconut is ground up to remove the stringy fibres. The fibres are used in making mats, rope and as stuffing, while the dust can be adapted for use in hydroponic growing.

Horticultural supply companies that process the raw coir to remove contaminants and to ensure a standard quality is available for modern growers. However there are traits about the processed coir substrate that growers still need to be aware of in order to maximize growth and yield.

These properties concern the cationic exchange capacity (CEC) of coir; it is quite high. Coir is principally cellulose, which are long chains of sugar molecules usually called “structural carbohydrates” in the make up of the coco husk. Carbohydrates have a typical ratio of oxygen that approximates CH2O, so cellulose is covered with electronegative points where-ever oxygen occurs.

Cations are simply positively charged atoms and minerals dissolved in solution; K+,Ca2+, Mg2+, Fe2+, Mn2+, Cu2+, Mn2+, Zn2+,Co2+ are all examples of cationic plant nutrients. Cationic exchange by coir is the process by which the positively charged atoms become drawn and attached by “ionic bonding” to the numerous negatively charged oxygen atoms that are in the cellulose stands of coir.

When coir ages during the duration of a crop cycle, the cationic adsorptive capacity of coir increases, and growers using coir have leaned that CEC will “lock up” some elements in aged coir.

At higher pH levels coir will bind more cations, and “charge up” on these, and this can push the nutrient balance in the solution out of the ideal range for certain nutrients or plant preferences. Potassium is the most likely element to be adsorbed element this way; and then be released in higher amounts when pH drops. Coir is also naturally high in potassium, pre-adsorbed to the cellulose fibres. The solubility of the secondary elements magnesium (Mg2+) and calcium (Ca2+) is also affected this way by coir.

A high cationic exchange capacity (CEC) is one of the unique properties of coir. The cellulose of coir can draw these cations out of solution, trapping them in the coir until there are appropriate pH changes, or by other influences such as root absorption of the elements.

Although horticultural grade coir is usually processed to a uniform quality, these coir-specific nutritional requirements will be present in all coir based growing systems.

*mistress* · Oct 13, 2009

method works...

simple enough to put together & try...

15 years of experience w/ a specific method or medium in no way precludes independent experiments that your coop may simply have not attempted...

bonecarver_OG · Oct 13, 2009

of course you have to prove that your method works - before other people follow it and get catastrophic results.

im trying to stop mal-practise before its too late. hehe

the scientific facts are from agronomical universities - they know what they talk about.. they are the only reliable sources of information atm. they re not biased by nute producers, or coco manifaturers, or pride or nothing.

anyone used to move in a somewaht scientific environment know how hard work that lays behind something before it becomes accepted as a fact. the tests that get done are all scientifically reliable and well executed. standards are used to make sure the results are reliable.

it is of outermost importance in todays world to improve yields and methods of culture, because of economics and social politics. be it cannabis or veggies or grains.

the different mediums available today all have been well tested during many years to make sure about the best possible use of them, to asure the highest yields and quality.

coco was first developed for the profesional industry and thus it passed thru decades of testing and trial and error.

coco has such a high cation exchange capacity it is used in REVERSE OSMOSIS filters to collect calcium and other particles.

you do realize you are the one discrediting something allready proven?

its like claiming the earth is flat...

it is obvious we all have something to prove if we claim something, if not these forums would be a heap of wild dreams, of no help or use to anyone.

peace

"the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed. EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC"

following this method above will guarantee best results.

15 years is a long time to spend on studying and improving on a subject.. my nugs speak for them self.

"beeing a master of one thing, is better than a novice in many"

old spanish proverb

peace

*mistress* · Oct 13, 2009

bonecarver_OG said:
the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed. EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC

if student of agronomics, maybe should not be into wasting 30% of inputs...
run-off is simply re-used, not wasted... the wick draws up the run-off...

well i recycle all my drain water for my the garden of my house. most flowers and veggies dont mind it at all

but other pl@nts do?... :chin:

bonecarver_OG · Oct 13, 2009

oh man u like rambling a lot

lol and you like to use non-relevant info.

none of the methods above mentioned will clean the coco.

are you running for office? supreme coco leader?...

please skip childish coments in a discussion, it will not help you to get taken seriously. rather it looks like you are of a age not suitable for icmag with the 18+ policy.

and still we get no proof of it working.

the best hydroponic coco specific nutes i have used contain humic and fulvic acid. obviously using these two in combination with hydroponic feeding and flushing of salts is the best way of getting good results.

neither fulvic or humic acid will clean up the excess salts caused by not flushing out the coco properly during feeding. what they do is they help the plants feed on available nutes. not SALTS.

should be noted - the line of nutrients we use - CANNA contains both humic and fulvic acid.

once again you are trying to discredit not only our knowledge, but also what several different universities have come to conclude in their extensive tests.

the web is full of papers writen about coco culture since in fact it is one of the most common forms of comercial hydroponic agriculture in many areas of the world.. are you trying to make us believe all these 100 000's of different agronomes with university studies that run these establishments are wrong? stop before you are making a fool of yourself.

still you give no proof or your method even giving acceptable results.

peace

*mistress* · Oct 13, 2009

yes, the papers are wrong
passive hydro w/ wicks+c0c0 works

Strangely · Oct 15, 2009

If a well meaning noob might be allowed to chime in...

- Let's assume 30% run off does equate to a nice problem free grow.
- BC do you think you could get comparable (say within 10% or so) yields by adjusting the other variables involved and a few additions, if removing the 30% run off? Or reusing it.
- Say reducing nutes to 25% (or suitable amount) of dose
- Adding in Fulivic acid
- Other clever stuff you'll know a damn sight more about than me!

I bet you could pretty close BC. A man of your talents!

I wont be able to tend to my proposed garden every day, and frequently have to be away for whole weekends at a time. I think a wicking system of some sort is well worth looking into. I don't think Mistress is saying this way is the best or better than method X. Just that if you're looking into a low maintenance setup, this is a pretty good way.

I'd probably implement this method with a midway run off feeding (plain water) at first until I get it dialed in.

bonecarver_OG · Oct 15, 2009

coco is quite low maintenance as is.

a handwatered grow with pots of rigth size can be left for several days without watering if necesary, with no severe effects. as long as the flushing etc is controlled.

if you want a low maintenance grow, check out using a small pump and drippers. top feeding like this will give guaranteed good results, and definetly it is not more complicated to set up.

also the topfeed systems are more suitable for coco because the flushing of the substrate will be very continuous. this method is guaranteed to be succesfull.

it is not as much about 10% yields up or down, rather a question os saving you trouble by eliminating the sources of problems. salt build is one of the biggest problems i hydro culture, so why not avoid it?

i cant recomend people to risk their buds to a method not properly thought out you know.

*mistress* · Oct 15, 2009

if the coop is so intent on scientific research & such, should run method - exactly as described - & show all icmag that plants topple over & die in agony when wicks are inserted into their drainage holes... wont happen. they will go on adapting & thriving w/ the constant water supply provided by the wicks...

bonecarver_OG · Oct 15, 2009

if the coop is so intent on scientific research & such, should run method - exactly as described - & show all icmag that plants topple over & die in agony when wicks are inserted into their drainage holes... wont happen. they will go on adapting & thriving & love the constant water supply provided by the wicks...

ill try to get a spot to do it after this winters selection work. i got no problem doing it - and i got age-old well tuned in cuts to do it with. i worked with these for several years.

and please stop exadgerating about me saying it CANT be done since i dont like when people put words in my mouth. i never said that.

what im saying is that it will produce less and of less quality. because of obvious reasons.

please stay focused.

peace

Rolando Mota · Oct 15, 2009

So you want someone else to prove that your imaginary system works? Yeah it's probably ok for a couple of plants but setting that up for a garden bigger than a closet would be a lot more involved than a dtw setup.

*mistress* · Oct 16, 2009

bonecarver_OG · Oct 16, 2009

keep focused

that thread is about PERLITE

you are not gonna say now coco and perlite is the same thing?

hehe you are trying to make delta9 to make your experiment in coco too

, keep tryin to get him to do it - since i wont

icmag is not the personal playground of mistress - no mam!

id feel bad to do that to my plants...

peace

*mistress* · Oct 16, 2009

bonecarver_OG said:
keep focused that thread is about PERLITE you are not gonna say now coco and perlite is the same thing?

hehe you are trying to make delta9 to make your experiment in coco too , keep tryin to get him to do it - since i wont icmag is not the personal playground of mistress - no mam!

id feel bad to do that to my plants...

peace

barnyard08 · Nov 2, 2009

just a few pic's

just a few pic's

I have three buckets going right now they are in there 2nd week of bloom veg for 45 days https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=10662&pictureid=208426 https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?albumid=10662&pictureid=208423 empty bucket https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?...m/ic/album.php?albumid=10662&pictureid=208425 it's three but im not sure if i posted all three still a little new to the picture posting thing I just wanted to post this because I've read the thread some time ago and decided to give it a try thanks mistress the only thing that I've done differently was to use the black grow buckets that you get from the grow shop that fits right into the five gallon buckets so far so good

*mistress* · Nov 4, 2009

thx for stopping by...

maybe, dril out more drainage holes into inner-bucket...

barnyard08 · Nov 4, 2009

Mistress thank you they are under 1k's the other day i went down to check when lights was suppose to be off and one of my lights where on i was saying to myself these should be farther along as for the holes should i drill the whole bottom with holes or just a few more I'll be taking more photo's soon to see how the buckets hold up in bloom

*mistress* · Nov 5, 2009

lots of drainage holes. maybe 5/8-1" bit.
how long did you veg? veg for 2 weeks under those 1lk's, @ 20/4-24/0, should give trees
by farther along, bigger or gland development?

barnyard08 · Nov 6, 2009

I was referring to gland development. They are not putting out the white hair's that I've usually seen in the 2nd week of bloom they're definitely big without the stretch! and yes should be tree's we'll see soon!

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