Neem Oil vs. Mycorrhizae

Hey VG, those are the citations that first made me use neem oil as foliar drench. However I must point out that showing neem constituents are taken up is not the same as saying to drench with oil for the same result.

Don't think that neem products are effective against PM? Fine - then show me the data that it is not effective.

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hey now clack, lets not get all irrational and try to shift the burden of proof. I don't need to point out that the one making a positive claim is the one who needs to show evidence. That is why the prosecution will say "the people have shown...", not "the people believe". Since neem oil v. PM is not settled, those making the positive claim need to show some evidence.

Interesting discussion - anybody else have input??

I struggle with aphids and whiteflies almost constantly in my outdoor grows. Lots of times the aphids don't show up until the plant is well into flower. Made the mistake of foliar spraying with Neem in flower and there just doesn't seem to be any good in that.

I'd really like to develop a schedule for preventative treatment and my initial thought was to soil drench with Neem during the veg stage and them hit the plant with Sevin or Malathion about 5 weeks into flower. Hopefully that would keep things knocked down until harvest. The last plant I chopped was a mess, I estimate I lost 50-70% of the bud due to aphids and bud rot.

Organic Neem Products

Organic Neem Products

A friend sent me a link a couple of weeks ago to NeemResource.com which operates under the company name of The Ahimsa Alternative, Inc. and is headed by Ms. Usha Rao.

She was born and raised in the neem tree growing region of India and her family has been involved in the growing and harvesting of neem seed pods (as well as karanja seeds - a close relative to the neem tree) for several decades. She definitely knows her stuff.

Their products are certified organic and are 'fair trade' which is important to me personally.

They carry a sample pack (#3 specifically) which is 1 gallon of organic neem seed oil, 1 gallon of organic karanja seed oil, 5 lbs. neem seed meal, 5 lbs. of karanja seed meal for $150.00 and that is the delivered price, no shipping/handling charges.

Their neem oil comes in at 4500 PPM of Azadirachtin which is 3x the rate in many other neem oil products @ 1500 PPM. Their neem seed meal/cake comes in at 1500 PPM.

My order is scheduled to be delivered today via FedEx. I'm looking forward to using this product as the spider mite and PM are in full swing in the Pacific Northwest. One of the worst in several years.

HTH

CC

Clackamas Coot said:

A friend sent me a link a couple of weeks ago to NeemResource.com which operates under the company name of The Ahimsa Alternative, Inc. and is headed by Ms. Usha Rao.

She was born and raised in the neem tree growing region of India and her family has been involved in the growing and harvesting of neem seed pods (as well as karanja seeds - a close relative to the neem tree) for several decades. She definitely knows her stuff.

Their products are certified organic and are 'fair trade' which is important to me personally.

They carry a sample pack (#3 specifically) which is 1 gallon of organic neem seed oil, 1 gallon of organic karanja seed oil, 5 lbs. neem seed meal, 5 lbs. of karanja seed meal for $150.00 and that is the delivered price, no shipping/handling charges.

Their neem oil comes in at 4500 PPM of Azadirachtin which is 3x the rate in many other neem oil products @ 1500 PPM. Their neem seed meal/cake comes in at 1500 PPM.

My order is scheduled to be delivered today via FedEx. I'm looking forward to using this product as the spider mite and PM are in full swing in the Pacific Northwest. One of the worst in several years.

HTH

CC

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WOW!...great deal. I second the PM in the PNW being a constant battle this year....considered packing it up and moving to a drier climate its so bad.

Thanks for that neem link CC. I'm a fan of neem oil as it always treats my plants rather well. To top it off organic and fair trade? Awesome.

I don't envy you people with PM in your gardens. My recent visit to Humboldt indoor gardens was my first exposure to PM and boy does it make the girls ugly.

Dignan said:

I don't envy you people with PM in your gardens. My recent visit to Humboldt indoor gardens was my first exposure to PM and boy does it make the girls ugly.

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Dignan

Here in Oregon's Willamette Valley given the number of nursery stock growers, vineyards, orchards, grass seed producers, blah, blah, blah the battle against PM is a multi-million dollar a year industry.

It's a real bitch - and there are NO easy answers/solutions.

Reading posts with titles like 'Get rid of PM once and for all' are a 'Comedy Central' paradigm.

No easy answers and even less solutions as things turn out.

CC

Clackamas Coot said:

A friend sent me a link a couple of weeks ago to NeemResource.com which operates under the company name of The Ahimsa Alternative, Inc. and is headed by Ms. Usha Rao.

She was born and raised in the neem tree growing region of India and her family has been involved in the growing and harvesting of neem seed pods (as well as karanja seeds - a close relative to the neem tree) for several decades. She definitely knows her stuff.

Their products are certified organic and are 'fair trade' which is important to me personally.

They carry a sample pack (#3 specifically) which is 1 gallon of organic neem seed oil, 1 gallon of organic karanja seed oil, 5 lbs. neem seed meal, 5 lbs. of karanja seed meal for $150.00 and that is the delivered price, no shipping/handling charges.

Their neem oil comes in at 4500 PPM of Azadirachtin which is 3x the rate in many other neem oil products @ 1500 PPM. Their neem seed meal/cake comes in at 1500 PPM.

My order is scheduled to be delivered today via FedEx. I'm looking forward to using this product as the spider mite and PM are in full swing in the Pacific Northwest. One of the worst in several years.

HTH

CC

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Thanks for the link, that's considerably less expensive than what I've been paying for Neem oil even with shipping and if it's 3X as potent, I'll definitely order some as soon as my current stock is depleted.

would you mind sharing your application methods? I realize the treatment for PM is probably different than that for aphids or whiteflies, but I'd still be interested in learning your approach.

Dawn Patrol

The application rate goes like this: 1 tsp. of the neem oil (or split it 50/50 with the karanja oil) and to that add the equal amount of Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt which is a liquid silica product. The addition of the liquid silica will emulsify the neem oil, IOW break it up into small pieces.

To that add 1 quart of TEPID water (i.e. 85F - 95F) as warm(er) water will denigrate the effectiveness of the neem oil.

To this quart you can add 2 or 3 drops of liquid soap - go for any liquid soap that does NOT contain the phrase "anti-bacterial" - we're not trying to kill bacteria here, eh?

Mix well and apply to each and every leaf (top and bottom) and every branch, stalk, etc. - make the leaves hang low from the spraying process.

Do this every 3 days to circumvent the 'adult-larva' cycle which is pretty much like fighting fleas/ticks on your dogs/cats. Same deal.

HTH

CC

Do you use it as a soil drench at all? Any opinions on the systemic properties? Not trying to pin you down or start an argument, just interested in real world experiences.

Dawn Patrol said:

Do you use it as a soil drench at all? Any opinions on the systemic properties? Not trying to pin you down or start an argument, just interested in real world experiences.

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Dawn Patrol

Take 1 cup of neem seed meal and 1/4 cup of kelp meal and add that to 5 gallons of clear water.

Let it brew for 24-36 hours. Apply full strength as a soil soak. Cut it in half with water for a foliar application.

No oil. High levels of azadactrin. Solid defense against powdery mildew and mites IF applied on a regular basis, i.e. every 3 days or so to break the adult - larve cycle.

HTH

CC

Clackamas Coot said:

Take 1 cup of neem seed meal and 1/4 cup of kelp meal and add that to 5 gallons of clear water.

Let it brew for 24-36 hours. Apply full strength as a soil soak. Cut it in half with water for a foliar application.

No oil. High levels of azadactrin. Solid defense against powdery mildew and mites IF applied on a regular basis, i.e. every 3 days or so to break the adult - larve cycle.

HTH

CC

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What are the benefits of the neem seed meal vs. neem oil?

Do you rinse in between applications? (foliar)

Do you spray or dip?

Clackamas Coot said:

Dawn Patrol

To this quart you can add 2 or 3 drops of liquid soap - go for any liquid soap that does NOT contain the phrase "anti-bacterial" - we're not trying to kill bacteria here, eh?

CC

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I use Dr Bronners Magic Soap. (Peppermint & Lavender)
Find the addition of these helps deter bugs/mites. They seem to hate both aromas and flavors of peppermint and lavender.

1 Gallon H2O
2 Tbls Neem Oil
2 Tbls Soap

Flip the soaps every other application also helps keep the bastards guessing a bit.

Frankie Pebbles said:

I use Dr Bronners Magic Soap. (Peppermint & Lavender)

Find the addition of these helps deter bugs/mites. They seem to hate both aromas and flavors of peppermint and lavender.

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Dr. Bronners is the BEST soap out there.

Good choice!

CC

BUMP

Lay some more knowledge on us CC!

I have been growing Indoors over two years now & never had a problem with bugs lol not trying ta kick myself in the nutz but I keep things very clean & use this stuff to spray arround fans filters floors doors etc & it seems like really good stuff. Just putting it out here in IC land. Peace.oh & I never I mean Never spray my plants. Ill kill it If I ever get conserned & make hash out of her.lol

Dawn Patrol said:

BUMP

Lay some more knowledge on us CC!

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Dawn Patrol

Since I last posted on this thread I've switched from the Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil product to an organic source, i.e. The Ahimsa Foundation (nee NeemResource.com) and they carry both organic neem seed oil as well as an organic karanja seed oil. They also carry both organic versions of neem seed meal and karanja seed meal.

The active ingredient most often talked about when discussing neem products is the Azadirachtin levels - blowing off the other 129 agents that these oils contain. The organic versions offered by these folks is 4500 PPM vs. 1500 for Dyna-Gro Neem Seed Oil.

The same is true when comparing the seed meals - the organic comes out at about 2-3x the strength.

I've been adding 1/4 cup of both seed meals to 5 gallons of potting soil. These meals are a very effective soil amendment aside from the anti-fungal factor - a strong N-P-K (*cough*cough*) and especially with micro-nutrients as you would expect from most seed meals.

A combination of both oils emulsified with Dyna-Gro Pro-TeKt (liquid silica) and with adding yucca extract (for its surfactant qualities and its saponin content) has proven to be very effective in preventing molds, mildews, whatever you want to call them as well as keeping the mite issue under control. This year in Oregon with the weather patterns in late spring and early summer (wet, wet, wet) followed by some 100+ temps and it was a disaster for many, many medical growers.

I asked 2 people who are considered 'experts' in the area of mycorrhizal fungi - one from Mycorrhizal Applications and another scientist from BioAg - and neither knew diddly-squat about neem tree products or even Azadirachtin - forget the other terpines that these oils contain.

If someone like CT Guy or MM wanted to test out the effect, if any, on aerobic micorbes when using neem tree products, I'd be more than happy to have some shipped to them at my cost. I'd really like to know.

What I do know that when I add neem and karanja seed meals to my worm bins there is absolutely no negative effect on the growth, health and vigor of the worm colonies.

I know - hardly scientific.

CC

Thank You CC and everyone else for the great information given out and contained within this thread on neem oil products and uses, awesome work peeps

Hi....and yea CC thanks, I for one intend on incorporating the two meals among some other things to reconstitute used soil, I'm just wondering if some of the anti fungal factors is a concern using biological, or its not like that?

A great thread, thanks folks. I have been mixing Down to Earth Neem seed meal @ 1/2 cup per cu. ft. into my water only soil mixes this fall, although i've yet to complete a run w/them, i will post the results here. I use half Neem Seed Meal and half B.Meal for the nitro in my mixes. I am also in the Willamette valley, surrounded by literally thousands of acres of wine grapes within a 20 mile radius. The war on PM is indeed raging, and this year we are losing ground. My OD Urkles seem to be getting the worst this year. Have done B.Soda/peroxide (harsh!! even with the 3pct.) B.Soda (decent, messy) teas (negligible) tarantula/piranha spray (negligible) the dyna-gro neem oil @ 2 tbs gal. with organic wet betty and fossil fuel works the best so far. The leaves seem to love the oil coating, It provides a physical barrier in addition to the active ingredient protection. Interesting note, the plant that has had it the all time worst was...............guess?..............GN C99 F2. (good beans nevertheless).

-Nate

Tip: If you use the meal in your mixes, a bag of hort. charcoal works beautifully to nuetralize the odor. Also adds great texture and sweetens the soil a bit.