Building an IC69 Heat Exchanger

pbard1 · Apr 5, 2015

Just jumping into the discussion after going thru this whole thread.

Thought I would share my experience.

Regarding coil in collection pot bath:

I am running a Transforminator setup, switching out 4" x 36" columns. 12" collection spool.

Learned on my own to use a 3/8" x 25' coil after a pair of TR21 pumps. I have a temp controller running a 1000W pail heater ( GFCI protected) to maintain heat. The heater rarely comes on after initial heat up. Controller set for 24C. Temp fluctuates between 23.5C and 25.6C. I use a small submersible fountain pump for circulation.

Pump pressure to coil averages 110PSI during 4 column run. Ambient temp ~50 - 70F.
NW Oregon humidity. After coil temps are solid 24C. TR21's head temps around 150F.
All 3/8 plumbing until 1st 50# Manchester. 1/4" SS/Teflon-lined lines from 1st Manchester to 1/4" x 25' coil in H2O ice bath where my 2nd 100# Manchester resides. I have 3/8" ball valves before and after each coil to safely shut down and/or isolate system.

I have not, as yet messed with pre-chilling injection butane. I start with -20F pre-chilled columns. The surface temp of columns stay below 20F throughout process except for brief periods while injecting.

I was happy to follow all ideas within this thread as my own experimentation appears to fall in line with the finding of others.

I played with a salvaged freezer compressor/condenser/etc. but nuked it due to bad capillary line. I had the hope that i could use it to chill my 100# Manchester tank. Probably will obtain chest freezer and PG for H2O/ice bath retrofit.

Anyhoo....Any comments or critique are welcome. Thanks!

Hydrosun · Apr 5, 2015

Welcome to ICmag... I bet you will have stuff to add to the discussion and there lots of cool threads for CLS operators!!!!

:joint:

AOD2012 · Apr 6, 2015

Hydro, I finally got my MKIII put together over the weekend. Will be pressure testing & testing for leaks this week.

Should I just get one of these built before my first run? Still need to distil my 50# of N-Tane from Ecogreen.I have been waiting for so long to run this, should I just wait a little longer and build this?

aod

GratefulOne · Apr 6, 2015

AOD2012 said:
Should I just get one of these built before my first run? Still need to distil my 50# of N-Tane from Ecogreen.I have been waiting for so long to run this, should I just wait a little longer and build this?

aod

If you don't run a post pump cooler you will see really high pressure and temp between the pump and tank.

Sunfire · Apr 6, 2015

GratefulOne said:
If you don't run a post pump cooler you will see really high pressure and temp between the pump and tank.

This depends on your pump, an appion will run much cooler because of its ten feet of air cooled coil in the back. A tr21 NEEDS an after chiller

Sunfire · Apr 6, 2015

Pbard1 - welcome! 110 psi is crazy high! Did you vacuum out all the atmosphere from all the lines and coils and tanks before using them? If not you need to purge the atmosphere from your system, that will greatly reduce your pressures. I just did that after a bunch of runs small amounts of atmosphere was building up and after the purge my pressures dropped like 30-40 psi.

Can you explain this two tank system a little more?

AOD2012 · Apr 6, 2015

I have an Appion, still think I am going to order all the parts for this.

Going to print the thread out & read tonight.

aod

Sunfire · Apr 6, 2015

It will for sure be a great benefit to have in your system.

pbard1 · Apr 7, 2015

Sunfire said:
Pbard1 - welcome! 110 psi is crazy high! Did you vacuum out all the atmosphere from all the lines and coils and tanks before using them? If not you need to purge the atmosphere from your system, that will greatly reduce your pressures. I just did that after a bunch of runs small amounts of atmosphere was building up and after the purge my pressures dropped like 30-40 psi.

Can you explain this two tank system a little more?

Sunfire,

110 PSI is measured just before coil at collection "bath", just after pumps, not at column head, not within the collection spool. I never let column pressure exceed 60 PSI during a fill/flush.
When I was running DI/ISO at fill tank, pressures still were ~60PSI.
Tanks are rated 400/300 PSI respectively. 100PSI is well within MY safety margin. I pressurize CLS to 100PSI before each run to see if it holds for 30 minutes, then vac.
I totally purge system before run. At each column change, I purge column and both lines at each end. This is a counter flow system.

The first 50lb tank acts as a buffer before the 100lb tank. Temperature at first tank sits at 70F. Second tank is in ice bath at ~30F.

Gray Wolf · Apr 7, 2015

pbard1 said:
Sunfire,

110 PSI is measured just before coil at collection "bath", just after pumps, not at column head, not within the collection spool. I never let column pressure exceed 60 PSI during a fill/flush.
When I was running DI/ISO at fill tank, pressures still were ~60PSI.
Tanks are rated 400/300 PSI respectively. 100PSI is well within MY safety margin. I pressurize CLS to 100PSI before each run to see if it holds for 30 minutes, then vac.
I totally purge system before run. At each column change, I purge column and both lines at each end. This is a counter flow system.

The first 50lb tank acts as a buffer before the 100lb tank. Temperature at first tank sits at 70F. Second tank is in ice bath at ~30F.

110 psi is high tank pressure and slows down recovery.

We run between zero and 5 pounds back pressure using alcohol/DI heat exchangers.

The n-Butane must be down to at least about ~31.2F to be liquid, at which point its vapor pressure is around zero.

pbard1 · Apr 8, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
110 psi is high tank pressure and slows down recovery.

We run between zero and 5 pounds back pressure using alcohol/DI heat exchangers.

The n-Butane must be down to at least about ~31.2F to be liquid, at which point its vapor pressure is around zero.

Grey Wolf,

I totally agree that my current setup is recovering slower since I stopped using DI/alcohol. I made significant headway by leveraging off the collection spool's ability to cool off the pump's discharge using a 3/8" x 25" coil. I'm in a transition towards sticking my second (100#) tank in a chest freezer with a glycol bath. I live in a somewhat remote area, and obtaining, storing, handling DI has been a PITA. Also 1/4" lines between coils (6' each) are friction points. All assistance and mentoring is much appreciated. :tiphat:

Gray Wolf · Apr 8, 2015

I use 1/2" hoses and 3/8" heat exchanger coils. You can get sub zero freezers and refrigeration plants for use in the pucker brush, if you have electricity or a genset.

GratefulOne · Apr 8, 2015

pbard1- Remember to watch out for leaking tank valves. They tend to do this when you chill them down in a freezer. You then have a pool of solvent vapor when you open the door. People have started fires like this when the light, door switch or something else provided a spark.

Sunfire · Apr 8, 2015

Since dab Strudel already dug this old noob thread of mine up, lmao, bastard, hehehe! I'll suggest you read it pbard...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=300004

pretty much, it's not worth the risk to put tanks in the freezers.
Use the freezers to house your after chillers and pre chiller and keep the tank at room temp for pressure. Pack alot of ice in the freezer around your buckets of pg. Kenmore makes a great freezer for the price that A6 and I both have. Online it's about 750$ for the big 22 cubic foot one, the 16 cubic foot is less. It can get down to -20F and with the express chill option it will go down to -30F for 72 hours.

Google so-low freezers and you'll see why the kenmore is such a score! Cascade style freezers are insanely expensive. 8k for the one that goes to -40F. 14K for the one that's half the size and goes to -85F.

I guarantee you have mad atmosphere built up in your tank! Take your tank to a safe location, put in an ice bath, come back in a few hours and open the vapor valve full bore. It will take a few minutes until there is only a gentle stream of vapor. Pure tane on an ice bath should only be about 15 psi. After hat is a good time to invert it and stick it in a fridge overnight to purge the water. Maybe the ambient is cold enough where you live to do that outside though.

GratefulOne · Apr 9, 2015

Gray Wolf said:
I use 1/2" hoses and 3/8" heat exchanger coils. You can get sub zero freezers and refrigeration plants for use in the pucker brush, if you have electricity or a genset.

GW-

Why do you size down to 3/8 for the coils if you already have a 1/2 system?

Thank you!

Gray Wolf · Apr 9, 2015

Because the 3/8" coils are big enough and readily available. I would use 1/2" given a side by each choice.

pbard1 · Apr 9, 2015

Sunfire said:
Since dab Strudel already dug this old noob thread of mine up, lmao, bastard, hehehe! I'll suggest you read it pbard...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=300004

pretty much, it's not worth the risk to put tanks in the freezers.
Use the freezers to house your after chillers and pre chiller and keep the tank at room temp for pressure. Pack alot of ice in the freezer around your buckets of pg. Kenmore makes a great freezer for the price that A6 and I both have. Online it's about 750$ for the big 22 cubic foot one, the 16 cubic foot is less. It can get down to -20F and with the express chill option it will go down to -30F for 72 hours.

Google so-low freezers and you'll see why the kenmore is such a score! Cascade style freezers are insanely expensive. 8k for the one that goes to -40F. 14K for the one that's half the size and goes to -85F.

I guarantee you have mad atmosphere built up in your tank! Take your tank to a safe location, put in an ice bath, come back in a few hours and open the vapor valve full bore. It will take a few minutes until there is only a gentle stream of vapor. Pure tane on an ice bath should only be about 15 psi. After hat is a good time to invert it and stick it in a fridge overnight to purge the water. Maybe the ambient is cold enough where you live to do that outside though.

Sure enough! I just got finished doing everything your suggested before reading the posts you and GW posted. Tank is inverted. Overnight temps here have been about freezing, so I didn't have to do an ice bath. I am at about 1500' altitude. I should have been looking at vapor pressure curves. I will take all the advice I can cram into my noggin.
Always a learning curve...
Thanks for the feedback y'all.

pbard1 · Apr 9, 2015

GratefulOne said:
pbard1- Remember to watch out for leaking tank valves. They tend to do this when you chill them down in a freezer. You then have a pool of solvent vapor when you open the door. People have started fires like this when the light, door switch or something else provided a spark.

I appreciate your concern. i was envisioning a chest freezer with a cutout for the top of the tank. This would expose the valve set to the outside. Still a mind experiment at this time.

Sunfire · Apr 9, 2015

Dude, read that link I posted, I talked about doing that same thing. I decided not to, it's still not safe, get the tank away from the compressor. The carbon steel of the tank is a great conductor. You valves will still be cold and you'll be losing a lot of your heat (think of it as "cold") from your freezer because not only do you have a hole in the lid now, the steel will be conducting the cold out of the freezer and exchanging the heat with the outside air that the too of the tank is touching. This has all been discussed much. Get coils, and put those in freezer if you want sub zero.

Breakover · Apr 10, 2015

Update:

Sweaty Betty is still going strong with a few hundred hours of run time.

The flat plate exchanger is working better than expected. We are waiting on an injection cooler from Exergy so that we can get away from a messy recovery tank bath setup.

Building an IC69 Heat Exchanger

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