Variation if S1 seeds?

inreplyavalon · Jan 29, 2011

Hello.
I popped 3 seeds that i found in a mob boss bud that i grew from seed. I am trying to figure out if it was self pollinated or was pollinated by another gal in the room. The three plants are showing quite a bit of variation.
Do 'SELFED' seeds show phenotype variations?

Pictures and more info are located here if anyone is interested.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4186323&posted=1#post4186323

Thanks dilated pupils

Rocky Mtn Squid · Jan 29, 2011

Im not a genetics expert - someone else more qualified please free to chime in on this one - but S1 seeds usually take on the gene's and characteristics of their Mom.

I currently am running a Sour Slut S1. It's a cross between a Space Queen Daddy and an ECSD Momma. She's the spitting image of her Mom in growth, structure and smell. She reeks of sour lemon.... :jump:

....and is highy resinous.

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Peace & Puffs,

RMS

:smoweed:

tryn2getby · Jan 29, 2011

Good question for sure... i always assumed s1 beans would be sorta uniform... i've heard quite different opinions though... tagn' along...

Damn Rocky that Slut looks fantastic... i remember gettn' this from Jimmy.... but never had a chance to really give her a go...what a dum ass i was back then... best of grows all..

t2

igrowone · Jan 29, 2011

can't tell you the answer(if there is one), but i have a bunch of s1 seeds
plan to test them, i have read a few posts that seem to indicate these seeds may work better than some would expect

Rocky Mtn Squid · Jan 29, 2011

tryn2getby said:
Good question for sure... i always assumed s1 beans would be sorta uniform... i've heard quite different opinions though... tagn' along...

Damn Rocky that Slut looks fantastic... i remember gettn' this from Jimmy.... but never had a chance to really give her a go...what a dum ass i was back then... best of grows all..

t2

t2....you missed out big time Dude. If you still have those beans, you should pay them a visit. Jimmy Knitz had the right idea when he crossed these two strain's. I got them from the guy that gave Jimmy the sour d..... :biggrin:

Sour Slut in original seed form is a cherry diesel. The original beans when I grew her out, displayed the growth and structure of a hash plant, short & stumpy with nodes that grew like vine's. It can be unstable, and wont hesitate to herm if you give her any kind of reason or excuse. In what ever form she grew, she always displayed explosive, vigorous growth.

RMS

:smoweed:

MedUser420 · Jan 29, 2011

Rocky Mtn Squid said:
but S1 seeds usually take on the gene's and characteristics of their Mom.

Dominant genes whether hetero (Aa) or homo(AA), is what the plants will usually take on, sometimes a recessive gene(aa) will show. The variance in s1's are due to the plants dominate hetero genes(Aa). Out of 4 seeds if you have a dominate hetero gene, you will have 1 plant showing AA, 2 plants showing Aa, and 1 plant showing recessive aa. If you self a Dominate homo AA, all plants will show the AA.

Big Eggy · May 27, 2011

I'm growing out 2 Selfed white widows and was expecting them to be exact copies of the Mother (FMS White Widow) but after 1 month one has very short nodal spaceing and the other is more strechy.. other than that they look and smell identical. will have to wait and see if it's just somthing else causing it?

Eggy

igrowone · May 27, 2011

since i last posted, i grew out one of the s1 seeds i had
it is very close to the parent on the whole, but the hermie trait isn't present 5 weeks into flower

other than that, the odor changed, there isn't any, first no odor plant i've run into, though i get a bit of odor when rubbing the stems

roach · May 27, 2011

it realy depends on how stable the mother was

something like Jack herrer should have much more variation in a S1 generation than Afghan#1, the first is a unstable 3 way hybrid and the second is suposedly a IBL

Big Eggy · May 27, 2011

Is it a bit like when you get identical twins.. although they came from the same sperm and egg theres always slight differences in genetic make up??? is this the same in cannabis.. is there a bit of the each parent plus a bit of pot luck?

I'm guessing that my FMS White Widow is heavly hybridised as they sposadly reworked the original (Brasilian x Indian) to a more indica domanant strain.

EDIT: Just been reading this and has me wondering if this process has anything todo with the phenomenon of Elite Cuts/Clones being produces out of a batch of F1 seeds?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_number_variation
http://gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/441.short

Although i feel i a bit out of my comfort zone now.

igrowone · May 27, 2011

Big Eggy said:
EDIT: Just been reading this and has me wondering if this process has anything todo with the phenomenon of Elite Cuts/Clones being produces out of a batch of F1 seeds?

interesting thought because that is what my S1 plant is, the parent was a F1 hybrid, which supposedly had an arcata trainwreck mother
1 plant example doesn't mean too much, but does match your thought

highonmt · May 27, 2011

MedUser420 said:
Dominant genes whether hetero (Aa) or homo(AA), is what the plants will usually take on, sometimes a recessive gene(aa) will show. The variance in s1's are due to the plants dominate hetero genes(Aa). Out of 4 seeds if you have a dominate hetero gene, you will have 1 plant showing AA, 2 plants showing Aa, and 1 plant showing recessive aa. If you self a Dominate homo AA, all plants will show the AA.

This is really an interesting post. I just popped 20 15year old s1 bag seeds from a super potent and high yeiling indica dom plant that was grown by a fiend in the 80's -90's. There were 5 plants that were mutants/degraded and either died or failed to grow beyond 6inches. 5 plants were super short and little branching also what I'd call degraded but good smoke on single dense colas. The other 10 had what I assume is the ratio above. There are 1 super tall sativa dominant and truly massive plant with high tric numbers and popcorn buds. 2 other sativa dom but a just a little less vigor. 5 look similar to mom huge indica dom but super crystals/dense buds. and 2 are short with huge leaves and very resinous but also extremely leafy buds and are huge!!! Power stretchers in flower like 3x stretch bud is strong and stinky but all leaf. All the survivors showed female preflowers early at like the 4th node so I assume it was not luck and this was an s1 cross. Cool stuff.
HM

dr.penthotal · Jun 23, 2011

MedUser420 said:
Dominant genes whether hetero (Aa) or homo(AA), is what the plants will usually take on, sometimes a recessive gene(aa) will show. The variance in s1's are due to the plants dominate hetero genes(Aa). Out of 4 seeds if you have a dominate hetero gene, you will have 1 plant showing AA, 2 plants showing Aa, and 1 plant showing recessive aa. If you self a Dominate homo AA, all plants will show the AA.

I agree.

Every single character in every aspect of plant is written in her DNA in form of genes. These are located in a specific part of cell called chromosomes. For safety nature gave us and to all living things a back up copy of every chromosome, thus of every gene. One copy is from mum, other is from dad.
It's when nature reproduces that using different mums/dads things mix up and variations are possible.
In case of an S1, the same individual is giving alone a copy of every gene back to himself.
So if it is homozigous for this gene (= breeds true for this trait = it's IBL for this trait..), it means the individual has 2 identical copies of a specific gene and so can give only this one to his siblings. ---->(predictable so)
On the contrary if it is heterozigous for that gene, this means she has 2 different copies of this gene, and she displays only the dominant one. But when reproducing she can pass to her offsprings only one copy, which may be the recessive one and can give different traits to the siblings.---->(not predictable without testing)

So if one trait breeds true, all S1 seeds will have identical trait.
You can try to forecast this using a normal Punnet square using the same plant in both fields of mother/father.

I don't know if it's understandable... :kos:

Anyhow the answer for me is YES, you'll get variations, the more stable the "mother" plant for a trait, the less variation, but as we speak of hundreds of genes alltogether, EXACT copies are nearly impossible, at least not probable.
hope this helped
peace
Dr.P

redneck shogun · Jun 30, 2011

Are the varied traits you see in an S1 coming from the female's parents? I wonder if it could be broke down into a mathematical equation your chances of finding an S1 identical to it's mother.

Big Eggy · Jun 30, 2011

Big Eggy said:
I'm growing out 2 Selfed white widows and was expecting them to be exact copies of the Mother (FMS White Widow) but after 1 month one has very short nodal spaceing and the other is more strechy.. other than that they look and smell identical. will have to wait and see if it's just somthing else causing it?

Eggy

Just for the record the Widows are still quite different in thier nodal spacing.

will come back when the plants are in flower if i notice any differences.

Eggy

igrowone · Jun 30, 2011

redneck shogun said:
Are the varied traits you see in an S1 coming from the female's parents? I wonder if it could be broke down into a mathematical equation your chances of finding an S1 identical to it's mother.

my numbers are small(1 S1 seed grown out so far)
but the first one was like that, nearly a clone of the parent
only difference was it lacked the hermie trait, i find that interesting and a bit puzzling

Big Eggy · Jun 30, 2011

Maybe it hermed originally due to some unknown stress? My widow s1's came from a very stable clone that had been grown by a group of friends for years.. A non grower friend opened the door in the middle of lights out and thats when it hermed on me. I was mad at the time but happy I now got some fem'ed seeds.

igrowone · Jun 30, 2011

Big Eggy said:
Maybe it hermed originally due to some unknown stress? My widow s1's came from a very stable clone that had been grown by a group of friends for years.. A non grower friend opened the door in the middle of lights out and thats when it hermed on me. I was mad at the time but happy I now got some fem'ed seeds.

there didn't seem to be any stress, but you never know
i don't think it was stress because it hermied early and bad, roosters popped out at the node junctions, then another batch popped out of the bud structure
parent and offspring were grown in same soil, light, temps, and environment

MadBuddhaAbuser · Jul 19, 2011

redneck shogun said:
Are the varied traits you see in an S1 coming from the female's parents? I wonder if it could be broke down into a mathematical equation your chances of finding an S1 identical to it's mother.

MedUser420 said:
Dominant genes whether hetero (Aa) or homo(AA), is what the plants will usually take on, sometimes a recessive gene(aa) will show. The variance in s1's are due to the plants dominate hetero genes(Aa). Out of 4 seeds if you have a dominate hetero gene, you will have 1 plant showing AA, 2 plants showing Aa, and 1 plant showing recessive aa. If you self a Dominate homo AA, all plants will show the AA.

The thing to remember about punnet squares, is they are based on the law of averages, not a guarantee. you could pop 10 seeds and they could all be one specific phenotype. It will average out eventually though. It's like the traditional 50/50 male/female ratio.

Currently growing out some Chem S1s, and there is minor variation, some have darker leaves, stem rubs reveal some slightly different smells, kind of covering all the chem family, some more fuel, some piney chemically, some slightly kushy.

It definetly depends on how stable the mom is.

laughingmoon · Jul 19, 2011

Isn't this S1 variation how we got all the OG Kush cuts?

Variation if S1 seeds?

breathe deep

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