Chlorine/Chloramine Discussion

Dignan · Jun 10, 2007

I found this very interesting/useful. Shamelessly swiped it from C-W, so thank you to C-ray. :wave:

Dignan

From http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/B...ts/message/628

Over on the CT group there is a discussion about chlorine and
chlorine removal. I have done quite a bit of research about this and
will post the following here. Jeff has seen fit to ban me from the CT
list because I ask too many questions and disagree with obvious
incorrect and self-serving statements.

Here are facts as I have researched them. They are based with
discussion with water providers, water treatment professionals and
companies that sell chlorine and chloramine related products.

Chlorine was put into the municipal water supply to thwart the
propagation of pathogens in the water. To this effect, it works quite
well.

Chlorine will dissipate quite fast if water is left outside or is
exposed to sunlight. The recommendation to naturally dechlor a given
amount of water is to agitate it in some way and expose it to UV.
Often the very fact of pumping water through a sprinkler and having
it fly through the air in daylight is enough exposure to nullify the
chlorine.

Chlorine can pool and can suffer from uneven distribution. If a
particular faucet on a water system has a broken feed, the water that
leaves that faucet may be completely free of chlorine because the
organisms that enter the water from the break will use all of the
available chlorine.

Chlorine can also dissipate over time. Water left sitting loses chlorine.

Thus, many water companies, looking for ways to reduce costs and increase
protection, turned to chloramines. These are basically inert
materials that must be activated. If one looks at the chemistry, one
can see that chloramine is converted to chlorine by carbon
activation. This is what happens in the water system. Chloramine
becomes chlorine in the presence of organic matter. The assumption is
that the chlorine will then kill the pathogens and other biology
associated with the carbon. This would be the case of line breaks or
cracks or leaks.

There are several ways to commercially get rid of chlorine. There are
de-chlor products for use in the aquarium industry that nullifies
chlorine and even some that state they will remove chloramines. They
seem to work but you are adding another chemical to the water. Many
people prefer a more natural approach and some use Ascorbic Acid
(Vitamin C) and other water soluble vitamins.

The best success I have had is a carbon filter to assist with the
chloramine conversion then aeration in an open environment for six
hours. Test I have taken of the water show a complete removal of
chlorine and chloramine.

Now for a compost tea brewer the amount of organic matter in the
compost is more than enough to convert chloramine to chlorine. Even
if you use water right out of the tap, and start brewing, the amounts
of organic matter and biology is so out of proportion to the amount
of chorine or chloramine that results are negligible. In test batches
I have made in small and large containers, the biology produced shows
relatively little impact. I have used dechlorinated water, purified
water, RO water (which was the worst performer) and water straight
from the tap. Where I live, the water is chloramined.

Recommendations from my service district is to use a charcoal filter
and let the water sit for a couple of hours to remove the chlorine. I
have called several water districts where I have contracts and all
that use chloramine give the same or similar advice. Those that use
chlorine recommended agitation to dissipate the chlorine. But of the
districts that use chlorine most said the greater problems were the
metals that were leached into the water from old piping systems by
the chlorine. This was something that wasn't mentioned by the
districts that use chloramine.

Ted Peterson
Earth-Wise, LLC
http://www.earth-wise.com

vonforne · Jun 10, 2007

Good post Dig,

V

Suby · Jun 11, 2007

Good find Dignan.
I see posts with headings like these all the time: "i disagreed with so and so and he banned me.."
Why in the hell does that happen?
It discourages growers from seeking the truth and learning.

So if I am reading this article right either chlorine or chloramine don't offer enough resistance to bacterial propagation as to be harmfull, straight from the tap, for use in making tea?
And if chloramine converts to chlorine in the presence of carbon a good dumping of compost in a bucket of sitting water could convert it rather quickly into chlorine which dissapates over time.

I'll have to research that or someone clarify for the franco idiot here lol.

I'm all abour rain water at the moment but sometimes I have to resort to tap water, I found it interesting that he mentions RO water as being the one with the least desirable results.

Peace All

Suby

Dignan · Jun 11, 2007

Good find Dignan.
I see posts with headings like these all the time: "i disagreed with so and so and he banned me.."
Why in the hell does that happen?
It discourages growers from seeking the truth and learning.

I agree... usually egos on one side or the other. Interesting how little place ego has in the realm of teaching/learning. It's surely a hindrance.

So if I am reading this article right either chlorine or chloramine don't offer enough resistance to bacterial propagation as to be harmfull, straight from the tap, for use in making tea?

That's exactly how I interpreted it. According to this guy, chlorine (or chloramine in the presence of carbon, then becoming chlorine) will only kill off microbes in a sealed environment, i.e. water pipes or maybe a sealed reservoir/cistern of some kind. Shortly (very shortly) after being exposed to air and/or sunlight, its anti-microbial effects are very weak.

That's my interpretation and I (we) could be wrong. But it certainly sounds like this guy did his homework.

And if chloramine converts to chlorine in the presence of carbon a good dumping of compost in a bucket of sitting water could convert it rather quickly into chlorine which dissapates over time.

That's what I'm hearing. I got into a debate last year online with another grower about this and attempted my own research (using Google, etc.) and came up with nothing very scientific. So if you come up with anything, please share with me.

If the above fella is right about his conclusions, I owe the person I was debating last year a big apology, because he's an organic grower who swears that using chlorinated water is acceptable in organics (or at least not significantly detrimental to microbial life) and I was arguing from the side of "No way... chlorine kills microbes, it's the Devil!"

:dueling:

I'm all abour rain water at the moment but sometimes I have to resort to tap water, I found it interesting that he mentions RO water as being the one with the least desirable results.

Peace All

Yes, the RO comment was interesting. I don't use RO but it seems like people who do are often asking questions about it online. If using RO is problematic in organics, it wouldn't surprise me. Like you, I choose rainwater first, if available, but am forced most often to use dechlorinated tap water. Sure would be a time-saver if I were to be convinced that I could use tap water without letting it bubble for 12 hours every time.

Dig

Suby · Jun 12, 2007

Hey Digs,

I have to admit there are alot of things I was SURE of and debated ferociously and later changed my mind, at least you recpgnize the light if and when there is one. :joint:

An easy way to sort of test this would be to brew 2 teas with the exact same mount of ingredient in 2 seperate bucket and see which foams up fist, my bet is on rain water. :dueling:

Water's ability to dissolve is factored by it's purity, but the lushest growth areas on earth are close to heavily mineralized water? Becasuse the soil biology can use it and that michorizae help this link with the soil along immensly is obvious.
Mic is a fungus so how does that affect this whole chlorine buiness????

S

Dignan · Jun 12, 2007

Just tossing a couple ideas out there...

Suby said:
An easy way to sort of test this would be to brew 2 teas with the exact same mount of ingredient in 2 seperate bucket and see which foams up fist, my bet is on rain water.

I would challenge the idea that foam = microbially-active tea. I know it's commonly assumed that foam = microherd, but I've never seen science back up this assumption. If I've missed something along those lines though, I'd be interested in learning.

Suby said:
Mic is a fungus so how does that affect this whole chlorine buiness????

S

Not sure. But here's one thing that pops into my head... I grow mushrooms occasionally and, back before I was hip to the idea of not adding chlorinated water to my mushroom substrate, I used to use nothing but tap water. With excellent results. Actually, there was no difference.

Not sure what implications that might have for soil biology, but I just have a hunch that chlorine isn't as instantly-deadly for microbes as we think. At least not in the presence of carbon/air/UV light.

Interesting. Makes you wish Elaine Ingham was an ICMag member!
:chin:

Suby · Jun 12, 2007

Indeed foam is not a mesure of a tea biology, we could shell out a few $ and get it tested, it's really not very expensive and if you live close to ther countryside easy access.
I'm thinking that while chlorine like peroxyde is bad the microherd can outlive these disinfecting agents especially with the teas some of us brew.

Suby

budvapor · Nov 23, 2007

so did anyone ever do a side-by-side?

Scay Beez · Nov 23, 2007

Humics and fulvics can combine and complex chlorine and chlorimines to an extent. I'd rather have my humics combining with nutrients rather than cleaning up my water, IMHO.

I found some cheap aquarium additives that can clean chlorimine and chlorine when one doesn't have an RO filter (different brands exist):

Stress Coat®

Instantly removes chlorine and chloramines, making tap water safe for fish. Neutralizes heavy metals. Also, replaces the natural slime coating fish need in times of stress, such as handling, shipping or fighting. Contains Aloe Vera, nature's liquid bandage, to prevent the loss of essential electrolytes and protect damaged tissue against disease-causing organisms. Helps heal torn fins and skin wounds. Use when setting up aquarium, changing water, or adding fish.

StressZyme

Improves the development of the biological filter and helps clean a dirty aquarium. Contains over 300 million live bacteria per teaspoonful. Breaks down organic compounds that cause dangerous conditions such as ammonia and nitrite poisoning and low oxygen levels. Continuous use assures an active biological filter, cleaner aquarium, healthier fish and good water quality. No refrigeration necessary. Use when setting up and maintaining an aquarium. For use in fresh and saltwater.

- sbz

minds_I · Nov 24, 2007

Hello all,

I just recently found out that my water district uses sequestering agents to treat the city's wellwater which is high in Ca & Mg and iron as well. In effect, this softens the water by striping out CA,Fe & Mg.

So, I say to myself, maybe this is why I am having problems in my grow.

So, I started to suppliment with Ca and Mg using wood ash and epsom salts. I started to see improvements.

Since then I have been using powdered milk at the rate of two heaping tbsn per liter of water. The powdered milk brings other things to the table as well.

Anyway, not intending to barge into your thread, just wanted to point out that if you are using city water you may want to check int it. The info is free from your water district....it is public info.

minds_I

The Slickster · Nov 24, 2007

So the sequestered water turns soft and is lacking the harder calcium, iron, magnesium elements. And in places with hard water, there is good calcium and other harder minerals allowing for a higher PH. The questions then turns to how much chlorine is actually put into each water supply, and does hard or soft water equate with more or less chlorine and or chloramines added. Didn't know powdered milk could be a calcium substitute, always thought of calcium carbonate or chalk at the very least. Nice one mindsI, there is a calcium peroxide supplement that claims to help bacterias.

The fish clorine removers are not good, some like the "bandaid in a bottle" use formadehyde and have chemicals that are likely not good for the bacteria, plant, or anything except "hobby fish". The bottle says only for use on ornamental fish and not fish that are to be consumed. And the ones with bacteria and dechlorinating agents are comical. They say for use in salt or fresh water, but both have different species of bacterias for cycling, and the bottle only lists one strain. So basic organics and supplements like sea kelp should be more than enough to maintain adequate biodiversity.

For ultra clean water or air, carbon always works and ammonia can be neutralized with zeolite. All that is needed is to start bubbling it and after a few hours it is ready for watering as needed even if it does still supposedly contain a few chloramines, because the water, and all of its minerals (including some chlorine) are needed by the plants without adding more undesirable unknowns. It is nice to know Fulvic acid and other supplement can simplify the chlorine. And if the water is straight tap and not bubbled, pouring sea kelp or bacteria rich supplements would seem counterproductive.

Verite · Nov 24, 2007

Too much chlorine is bad but it should also be noted that many sources point out that chlorine is also an essential plant micro nute.

Dignan · Nov 24, 2007

I had a long-ish email exchange with Elaine Ingham several months ago. She's done the side-by-side tests, of course, and her conclusion was basically:

- It's easy to get rid of chlorine or to use alternative water sources, so why not do it?

- However, if you do use chlorinated water (or even water with chloramines), the effect it has on the biology of tea/soil is measurable, but minimal. Organic material quickly spends chlorine... i.e. it burns it up almost instantly, as do air and light. It doesn't instantly 'zap' or 'nuke' the microbiology, as some would suggest.

- It does however (a) kill a measurable portion [i.e. the little boogers who 'take one for the team' when they sacrifice themselves for 'burning up' the chlorine] and it (b) kills the most delicate microbes, which Elaine Ingham says are actually considered the most useful ones for soil biology. [i.e. the most useful types of bacteria are killed the quickest by chlorine/chloramine]

So for me... my tap here is excellent quality and I will use it (after 12 hours bubbling) whenever my rain barrel has gone dry. But when I can avoid using it, I will.

When I do use it, I don't buy into the idea that it is detrimental to my soil biology in any significant way.

'Significant' is relative, of course, so it depends on how passionate and particular you are about your gardening. Some folks here are committed to absolutely maximizing soil biology in every possible way, which is great.

I'm into organics for smooth, primo organic herbs and tasty vegetables, and having as little impact on the environment as I can. I achieve that with my current methods, which happen to involve using tap water every once in a while.

Peace-

Dignan

budvapor · Nov 24, 2007

so if you pour a little organic fert in tap water, say at least 1/4 normal dose for example (which is very mild), that should be enough to neutralize all the chloramine...?

Dignan · Nov 24, 2007

budvapor said:
so if you pour a little organic fert in tap water, say at least 1/4 normal dose for example (which is very mild), that should be enough to neutralize all the chloramine...?

I don't think anyone has research data that particular... too many factors come into play there. Elaine's example was more like a bucket of tap water with a shovelful of rich, healthy compost added to it... the compost would easily handle all of the chlorine/chloramine present in normal tap water.

Chlorine was meant to treat water in a sealed (air-free) environment. Namely water pipes. It's very effective at killing bacteria in a sealed environment. But it's very weak in the presence of air. Elaine made the point to me that if you fill a bathtub with tap water, by the time the tub is full, the chlorine is dissipated simply from the turbulence of the water coming out of the tap and the subsequent exposure to air. So it's not a stable compound. It turn gaseous very easily.

Chloramine is harder to get rid of but still... in the presence of organic material/carbon, chloramine is turned into chlorine, then the chlorine is easily dealt with.

The most effective way to get rid of chloramine with exposure to carbon is of course a carbon filter.

Dig

budvapor · Nov 25, 2007

thanks for the info dignan! i see some experimenting happening here soon

Dignan · Nov 26, 2007

I don't know that it's even necessary, given the large amount of wonderful scientific research that people like Soil Food Web's Elaine Ingham and Earth-Wise's Ted Peterson have done already.

It's just a matter of reading the research results and identifying your own personal goals in organic gardening. Some people just want great results, others want great results but are mostly interested in having a small impact on the environment... and many (like the great peeps here in the Organic Soil forum) tend to really push the envelope and virtually become biologists, with the intention of absolutely maximizing every possible aspect of soil biology and closing in on the perfect soil.

Scay Beez · Nov 26, 2007

Good digging Dignan, hehe!

I personally live in one of the worst places for water in the United States (aka West Coast). CA is pretty much a desert with some underground water sources. San Fran gets ridiculous clean water at the expense of parts of Yosemite getting flooded every year. The closest large enough water supply is under Colorado and that won't last forever. There are small wells and underground sources of water everywhere but not enough to supply a whole town. My tap water makes my stomach hurt and will give me the squirts if I drink it for multiple days in a row. There are people living WAY OUT in the mountains so extra chloramine is added so water can travel the distance. My teas suck when I use tap and rule when I use RO. So I guess source of water would be the mot important determining factor if one should use RO or not.

- sbz

clowntown · Nov 26, 2007

I'll vouch for that... when I lived in SF, tap came out at 30-40ppm and I always had to supplement with cal-mag. Same TDS readings across the water in Oakland; although I vaguely remembering hearing some while back that SF's water source is different than the rest of Bay Area's.

habeeb · Dec 11, 2008

what the first post failed to tell is that removing chloramine with a carbon filter still will have ammonia in the water. ammonia is treated by then using zeolite

there is alot of info from fish experts as they have to deal with chloramines as it will affect fish if you want to read further.........

Chlorine/Chloramine Discussion

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