Silverback discussion about Mould.

Hi fellow growers,

I have just joined my first forum in the last few weeks. I've been outdoor and gorilla growing for many years and I finally joined to submit some outdoor reports, but I hope to engage other growers with info and topics that have I have learned or considered over the many years that i have never been able to discuss with anyone or hear countering opinions about. I would truly cherrish the opinions of others even if they are antithetical to mine.

The first topic Im hoping for engagement on is the topic of Mould

First, let me share my b ackground on this subject. Unlike perhaps any other grower on this web, I have been fighting mould all of my life. I grew up in big leaf burley tobacco country, the grandson of many generations of burley producers. By the time I was 6, I understood that mould could destroy my families lifestyle and farm.. That mould is blue mould and a dime size spot on a big burley leaf will turn the whole plant to mush in 48 hours,along with 75% of my families income. It is very similar in nature and effect to the dreaded Botryitis

When I first began the battle with mould, there were no forums to read and discuss what others were doing so I was pretty much isolated in my efforts. If there are other farm boys here, they will know that farmers live by chemicals and couldn't grow half of the crops we grow without them. Because we started our own tobacco seedlings in greenhouses and sold seedlings to other growers in the County, we were growing 250000 seedlings per year. We constantly fought damping off and other fungal diseases. We grew blackberries and plums also and thes e often suffered from powdery mldew and rust, black spot and other diseases.

Naturally, when my big colas began to mould, i turned to the products we were using on the farm to fight the mould that I was familar with there use. Several types of the fungicides we were using were non toxic but quite effective. I began to use them with very effective results.

Since I began monitoring the forums, Ive come to understand that others arent using these products. I read thread after thread of growers loosing thier plants to mould and from my experience mould is curable.

My Question: Am I the only person using these products? And if so, why? I truly believe there are no negtative side effects and several of them are recommended by the EPA for use around fish and are wholly non=toxic. Do you folks know something I don't. Please, tell me your thoughts and experiences.

Further, my first line of defense when i am growing a plant that is suceptable to mold is to affect the shape of the plant in an effort to address the conditions that add to the natural tendency of the plant to mould by eliminating density and improve sunlight penetration and air circulation.

I never top a plant that is suceptable as in my view this will only exacerbate the mould tendency as its effect is to thicken the plant. Thats the problem already to some extent and to act in a maner that will increase branching, and increase the density of the plant to me is logically counterproductive.

Another common practice i use is to tie the untopped plant horizontal to the ground and remove the branches that would be on the underneath side and leave only those top branches whose stature now is that of several individual plants on a horizontal stem, with each branch getting its own sunlight and are as if it were an individual plant. If this practice is done correctly, I don't feel it has that big of an impact on yeild.

I dont read of other growers engaging in such activities. Again, why. Do they only work for me? I hope that other growers who have been experimenting and dealing with this will provide me with your thoughts and experiences.

EDIT:I forgot this question. A few years ago i first read about salycin and its potential effect on mould. I experimented with the aspirin in the gallon of water and couldn't document any dicernable effect. Again, bieng raised on a farm, i know that plants abosrb different chemicals in different ways so i moved to salycin that was suspended in a vehicle that facilitated tissue absorbtion such as those used for morphine patches or birth control. I used a product called Aspercreme but there are many of these. I think the HEAD ON that is always advertised may be one. These aspirin product are designed to be absorbed and I have had real results from this approach. I think it may increase mould resistance by as much as 30%. My question is this: Because the aspirin seems to be systemic in nature, is it being replicated in the plant and is one smoking aspirin with every joint. As someone who remembers the old days of cholchicine treatments, this is a concern to me and I hope others will express their findings.

Nice story.....

WEl ive heard the asprin thing too,but never
tried it yet?...i wouldnt worry about a plant
absorbing asprin and effecting health......
Hell it may be good hahahahaha!!!

Myself i fight molds alot in my fields,and the only thing i do
is cut out the rotting parts and give them sun to dry the area!
The stuff SUCKS for shure ive lost many many buds to molds....
Whats your experience with WEED???

Thanx for the response Lougrew,

My experience is that mold can be prevented and cured and that there is no reason to loose plants to it. Of course, these applications are limited to plants that you can tend occassionally . I usually only have 3 or 4 plants that i will treat. My puzzlement is why other growers aren't using these fungicides? All the work we put in and the price of the seeds to loose it all to something preventable? The brand i use is non toxic- you could drink it and it wouldn't hurt you and is highly effective. Kills Botrytis on contact and prevents its return. The fact that I dont see other growers using these products is baffeling to me.

What brand do you use? I'm sure that alot of commercial growers use fungicides but it's different when it's your own smoke. The main perceived problem with the use of pesticides is that unlike with fruits and vegetables, you can't wash the buds. Well, unless you're into water curing, which most aren't. I think that the only fungicides that I'd be willing to try are organic ones like baking soda and now that you've mentioned it, aspirin. Although spraying the buds with a water solution is risky, unless the fungicide is guaranteed to be effective.

I have only dealt with mold since I moved to northern cali. First, it was the mold in my home. As I began outdoor growing, I really worked with the mold. Last year was the easiest concerning mold. I had a little and used a neem/garlic spray which worked. I do trim inner growths so that the breeze can get in there and dry the moisture. The reason a lot of people don't use the chemicals is because it can leave a taste in your pot. I never spray on bud. I have also used tree tar on the mold site after killing the mold. But I do not grow your numbers. I can spend the time with my few alloted with my medical marijuanna card.

Nice topic Siverback
MOULD SUCKS!
The last few years the bad wheather comes right around harvest time and the mould can set in quick. So I"m switching to an earlyer strain in hopes of beating the mould.

Silverback
Welcome to icmag. and great discussion. I have had over 50% of plants just covered in mold. In my experience it was an early finishing strain that was in full flower Sept. 1st. A lot of my grow sites are in heavy vegetation and end of July beginning of Sept can be humid and susceptible to mold.

It is so disappointing showing up and seeing a plant engulfed in mold. My experience would suggest not tying the plant down as anything near the ground is more susceptible.

The branches near the ground were always the first to mold. My guess was all the old vegetation (ground cover) was holding moisture. I will give up some security to rid the ground of dead ground cover. I fought like a true guerilla one year spraying with Serin every couple of weeks. It seemed to work but it was impossible to keep it from coming back and to penetrate the inner buds with the fungicide. I spent many an hour cutting the infected sites out.

Now on the other hand the later flowering plants (finish time Oct 7th) were not susceptible and in fact I did not have any mold problems at the same grow plot.

I would love to hear your thoughts and your fungicide of choice.

i use powdered milk and spray it on my plants as it fights mold, powdery mildew and some others we do not like

i also give my plants asprin water all thru their lives, as it increases root growth, makes cloning faster and seems to help in the battle of fighting mold

one reason we do not want to use pesticides is because it can be harmful to ya in the long run and it gives ya buds a weird chemical taste as if you didnt flush

personally i never really get mold when growing outdoors but i do fight it with the above

Hey guys, Thanx for the kind words and the conversation.

Gunnaknow, I use a product called greencure from megagrow. com. The reason i use them is because i can buy the product in a 1 gallon size and then mix it which is much cheaper than buying the premix. You can buy the easy/ ready mix at future grow. com

It honestly pains me to hear stories like Hamstring and Broken fingers and thats really why I started this discussion. To work that hard preparing sites, taking a legal risk, the cost of seed, electricity and everything else we go through to loose it all in the end over 3$ worth of harmless, tasteless, inert chemicals.

Let me address some of the expressed concerns generally.

1. These products are not dangerous chemicals. Except for the fact that it would taste like hell and cause you to puke im sure, you could drink the stuff. These chemicals are not harmful to humans.. These chemicals are EPA RECOMMENDED for consumable and organic growing and for use around fish and amphibians which are highly susceptable to chemicals.

The county extension agent several years ago explained these chemicals to me this way. He explained that they consisted of 2 drying agents, boric acid and i think he said baking soda. If not soda then some other innocuous ingredient that when mixed, caused an acidic drying effect that mould could not tolerate. The acidity that remains while reduced, is not conducive to future mold onset. It doesnt hurt the plant at all, and folks, I have smoked pot that was cut and flashed dried in less than an hour of application. Other than a salty sorta taste, there was no real indication. It takes 3-4 days for that salty taste to go away. Harmless. No pesticides or chemical taste at all.

I can grow big bud in the sauna at 55 degrees with this prodduct. Its best effect comes from applying it once at about 3-4 weeks of flower and then once more about a 2 weeks from finish. Northern growers should be able to grow any plant that will finish for them, regaurdless of bud size/ structure.

I have been using these products on my weed since 2001 and me nor anyone that smokes my smoke has ever indicated ANY effect or taste. Growing up on the farm, Ive been using these chemicals for over 20 years on tobacco and blackberries.. They're harmless unless you are a bacteria

silverback said:

Gunnaknow, I use a product called greencure from megagrow. com. The reason i use them is because i can buy the product in a 1 gallon size and then mix it which is much cheaper than buying the premix. You can buy the easy/ ready mix at future grow. com

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I took a look and the active ingredient is potassium bicarbonate. In which case, I'd be happy to use it as I said earlier that I'd be willing to use baking soda, which is practically the same thing. Both of them being bicarbonates. Here's a little something I found.

Potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3), Mancozeb, Copper Hydroxide and Thiophanate-methyl are all documented as effective against Botrytis. A Bicarbonate ion prevents growth of this Fungus and others. The 'Bicarbonate' triggers collapse of Fungal cell walls and shrinkage of spores; raising the pH also contributes to a weakening the Fungus. Many people swear by Baking Soda (Sodium bicarbonate). Nevertheless, Potassium Bicarbonate produces results that are far superior.

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And this.......

During years of research, renowned plant pathologist, Dr. Ken Horst of Cornell University, made some significant discoveries including the fact that potassium bicarbonate is 25 to 35 percent more effective than sodium bicarbonate. The research further indicated that a “spreader-sticker” additive was required in order to achieve the greatest success with bicarbonates as a fungicide. Horst’s team of researchers evaluated more that 350 different “spreader-sticker” combinations until the GreenCure® formula was identified as the most effective and benign fungicide.

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Basically what you want is potassium bicarb, water, a few drops of cooking oil as a "sticker" and a couple of drops of detergent as a "spreader" or surfactant. Or soap as both a sticker and a spreader.

Roses were sprayed every 3 to 4 days with a water solution of baking soda and insecticidal soap. The latter was included for its surfactant qualities. (Surfactants are chemical agents that alter the surface properties of a liquid.) The soap improved the effectiveness of the bicarbonate by making it stick to, and spread evenly over, the leaf surface. Further experimentation proved that the insecticidal soap itself was not responsible for suppressing the diseases. While no specific concentration of baking soda is indicated as being most effective in PM suppression, the article states that a 0.5% solution was most effective in preventing blackspot.

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silverback said:

The county extension agent several years ago explained these chemicals to me this way. He explained that they consisted of 2 drying agents, boric acid and i think he said baking soda. If not soda then some other innocuous ingredient that when mixed, caused an acidic drying effect that mould could not tolerate. The acidity that remains while reduced, is not conducive to future mold onset.

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Boric acid is acidic, hense it's name but baking soda is alkaline. If you mixed the two together with water, you could expect it to fizz alot as the two reacted and caused the release of C02. The acid and the alkaline would neutralize eachother. If it was formulated with more boric acid than baking soda then after the initial chemical reaction, the solute would be slightly acidic. Other sources have said that the bicarb's alkilinity is what kills the fungi but it doesn't really matter, so long as it works.

silverback said:

Growing up on the farm, Ive been using these chemicals for over 20 years on tobacco and blackberries.. They're harmless unless you are a bacteria

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Unless you're a fungus you mean? lol

Really good info Gunnaknow. I didn't know much about its make up but i do know it works really well. Thanx

Yeah, fungus.

Silverback

Thanks for the info. That brings up a question in my mind anyways. Could you use this green cure to help facilitate mold-less drying in the outdoors. There have been many discussions on this forum about trying to dry outdoors and the mold issues that come with it.

Some of the obvious questions that arise are taste issues you discussed. You said it takes around 3-4 days to get rid of the salty taste. Even so it’s worth mentioning because drying outside has generated many a discussion here.

Thanks again for the interesting topic.

hamstring, Im pretty sure it would prevent mould in that instance and Ill tell you why. I use it more as a deterent than a cure. Its effects last for a couple of weeks depending on rain and dew. I spray my plants a couple of weeks before they are to finish and when the buds start to thicken and they just dont get mould. This year I intend to grow cali indica from sensi. It couldn't be grown in my climate without moulding, but Ill be able to grow it without problem using this product.

I cant see any reason why that protection wouldnt last a few more days or so on the plant during the curing process, especially since it would no longer be subjected so directly to the elements while curing.. Spray the plants a week before chop and it should work fine.

good topic silverback ,, one i know most outdoor growers should read ..
i have a hell of a mould problem ,, mainly due to heavy rains and caterpiller attack ..
ive found keeping the area clean of weeds , and as much air flow as i can helps .. but certainly does not completely stop the dreaded mould ..
a product such as u speak would help me , i think i would just have to target problem areas rather than try to spray the whole crop ..
im gonna look around during the week for some ,, i know the rain is nearly here and can practically smell the mould forming ,, hehe ...

Hey Wallyduck and others, Thanx for the conversation.

Theres no reason for mould to be a "hell of a problem" for any grower from my perspective and thats really why I started this thread. I can walk up to my plant, spend 20 seconds squirting it with a small hand mister and walk away knowing that i dont have to spend one second worrying about mould. To see these reports where people have risked their freedom and hours of labor and all kinds of money just to watch the plant be unnecessarily destroyed is just heartwrenching.

It's my belief that growers either don't believe these products work or that they think they're spraying some kind of dangerous chemical on their pot. Both of those beliefs are inaccurate.

With greencure, if you see a spot mould on a plant, spray it and the mouldy area sloughs off the plant. The mould doesnt return nor does it spread to other areas of the plant for as long as dew or rain doesnt completely remove the green cure. Usually about 10-14 days.

Its real value is in prevention. When i grow a dense heavy strain, I will spray it just before the buds become so thick that they conceal the inner nodes. This is usaully around the 3rd or 4th week of flower. Then again about 2 weeks from harvest.

My humidity in sept averages 65% and heavy soaking dew lays on plants until noon. Using the method above, I know I can grow any strain that will finish for me and not loose one bud to mould.

Want to grow LUI in northern england, no problem. Just follow the directions. Of course, this practice is limited to the 1/2 dozen plants of that special strain that you've wanted to always grow but new you couldn't. You can.

thought provoking...

thought provoking...

This is the most interesting thing I've read on the canna boards in a long time! I look forward to your future posts!

phrank

Thanks for that Silverback, I'll second what Phrank just said. Very interesting indeed.
Ever heard of Amistar?
"A few years ago there was a huge breakthrough in modern agriculture. Scientists noticed & wondered how it was that in pine forests the pine cone took so long to break down, all the dead wood round it would rot away but the pine cones stayed there for years. They found out that it was due to a small brown mushroom, aptly named the pine cone fungus. What happens is this, the myceleum of this mushroom colonise the pine cone & keep it for them selves by eating any other fungus. Scientists came up with a way of isolating the active ingredient & made a fungicde with it. These are now called Strobilurin class of fungicides. They were initially trialled in cereal crops. What they found was astounding. The wheat crops were staying greener for a lot longer, before dying back, delaying harvest for 2 to 3 weeks in some cases. The longer a wheat crop stays green, the heavier the yield, the flag leaves continue to feed & fatten the grain. ARE YOU GETTING MY DRIFT NOW. This product might enable us northern hemi types to keep them going till into november!

Now for the really good news. It has an excellent safety record. It was originally used on cereals , now it has been approved for vegetables, cougettes, lettuce, ornamentals, strawberries, grapes, (botrytis is a huge problem with all these crops) and wait for it TOBBACCO! The harvest interlude has just been lowered to just 7 days.
You do not need to spray it on those precious buds, it can be sprayed just before flowering.
It is a antibiotic, prophylactic chemical it will not cure mould but take my word for it, it will prevent it. Maybe the answer we have all been waiting for lies in this little brown mushroom.
Have I used it. No, but I prefer to grow organically. I may run some trials next year. For anyone growing for seed, I wouldnt waste any time, I would be using it.
its marketed in europe & UK by Syngenta, & its called Amistar. Google it. Strobulin / strobilurin fungicides. Also available in the US.
Dont ask me to get it for you, you need to know a sympathetic farmer. Agrichemical supplies will stock it. Tell them you need it for roses, bowling greens, tennis courts, veg , etc. I think the smallest ammount they will sell is 1 litre, eneogh for 1 hectare. I cannot make any safety reccomendations for anything I mentioned here".
Hope you dont mind me pasting that from a previous thread.
Thanks.

Interesting Farmaz but I wouldn't want to use modern, synthetic chemicals like strobilurin fungicides. The original strobilurin may be natural but the commercially available strobilurin fungicides aren't, they're synthetic analogs of the original molecule. That doesn't necessarily make them dangerous but that doesn't mean that you want to be spraying your buds with it either.

The original, natural strobilurin, dubbed strobilurin A, is produced by the pine cone fungus — Strobilurus tenacellus — a mushroom-producing fungus that is otherwise of no particular note. According to Dr. Henry Wetzel III, Biology Project Leader for BASF, this fungus actually colonizes pine cones and produces strobilurins “to keep the pine cone to itself, basically.”

The potential of strobilurins as fungicides was easy to see, but the molecule needed some improvements. The main obstacle was instability in the presence of light. If you're going to spray something on turf, crops or anything else growing out in the open, it must be able to tolerate sunlight without immediately breaking down. “That was the main impetus to find synthetic analogs… molecules that were more stable,” explains Wetzel. Several synthetic strobilurins are now available commercially, and the bulk are used agriculturally.

According to Wetzel, the synthetic products “have the same basic mode of action…they block electron transport through the mitochondrial system.” In layman's terms, “The fungus can no longer produce energy and sort of runs out of gas.”

To create their own unique strobilurins, manufacturers have devised different molecules that still exhibit the same basic mode of action. However, despite a common mode of action, strobilurins exhibit definite practical differences. For example, “They have different mobility in the plant and they are all a little different in their activity on pathogens,” says Wetzel.

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http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_strobilurin_fungicides_natures/

Yea I hear what you say & agree, the thing is you would want to spray at the very start of flowering, not on your buds, it might give enough protection to last all the way.
One thought, if it is approved for tobbacco, then unless you smoke weed neat, then the chances are you are smoking it anyway.
Hats of to Silverback though, for raising some interesting alternatives. Aspirin comes from willow bark I think, but there again it is probably synthethised. Mould itself can be seriously carcinagenic & toxic. ... "Farmer's Lung is an allergic disease usually caused by breathing in the dust from moldy hay. However, dust from any moldy crop--straw, corn, silage, grain, or even tobacco--can also cause Farmer's Lung."

We are all probably better off eating weed, than smoking anything.

Nice thread, silverback. I see that you don't believe it topping, but it it useful if you have a strain that produces very big colas. The smaller colas dry faster than one big one. OTOH, you accomplish the same thing with your tie-down method.

I usually grow my indicas in the dry season (that is winter and spring here), and I grow my sativas in the wet season (summer and fall) as they are more mold resistant. My indica mom is huge right now and I don't have an established sativa mom at the moment, so this is a good year for me to try an indica in the wet season with the potassium bicarbonate. Thanks silverback.