Reverse engineering all those bottled nutrient blends

[Dkgrower]

Sort of looks that way given the SDS http://test.prodana.dk/Files/Images...ucts/Varieties_large/Gødning/SDS_Resistim.pdf

Potassium phosphite 15-35% (jesus man how dodgy is that listing? - what's it to be kids 15 or 35% CAS: 13492-26-7

https://www.chemexper.com/chemicals/supplier/cas/13492-26-7+Potassium+phosphite.html

Sort of demonstrates the point about most weed growers only having an extremely narrow understanding of phospholipids

And yeah phosphite will likely increase resin visually because its stressing the hell out of the plants Reduce yield but hell man what the??

Ye that is my littel understanding and thanks for clearing it up for me.

newer did get a reduction in yeild at all and mono cropping, the same strain in a automated light dep,

used it at 40PPM in working solution.

Stressing the plant to produce more trichomes is the only way, you can do it mechanical or chemical and like chitin oligosaccharides, phosphite is a way to stress the plant to produce more trichomes

 

[Dkgrower]

Yeah I was being sarcastic because most growers understand phospholipid technology based on Dark Master (Dutch Master) Superdud rebranded and sold as Phosphoload after getting pulled in the US and EU/UK in 2003. Point really being is there isn't anything too amazing re what Phospholipids will do (its also used in nanotech although they likely help with bioavailability which is kinda pointless in hydroponics unless there is a deficiency of P occurring in solution and/or pH is out for optimised P uptake. Although interesting because they do seem to have an effect on the growth stress response. On the other hand Alar/daminozide elicits some pretty strong responses in plants (its a very potent growth retardant and reduces stem elongation). Lot of people been speculating on the actives in Canna Boost and Atami Bloombastic. I expect you will find both products have a masked PGR of some kind in them. And yeah interesting to hear about Trichoderma in the EU.


Just looking at what I can find and came across this..


As regards Trichoderma polysporum strain IMI 206039 (2), Trichoderma asperellum (formerly T. harzianum) strains ICC012, T25 and TV1 (3) , Trichoderma atroviride (formerly T. harzianum) strains IMI 206040 and T11 (4), Trichoderma harzianum strains T-22 and ITEM 908 (5), Trichoderma gamsii (formerly T. viride) strain ICC080 (6), Trichoderma asperellum (strain T34) (7) and Trichoderma atroviride strain I-1237 (8) the European Food Safety Authority (‘the Authority’) could not conclude on the dietary risk assessment for consumers as some information was not available and further consideration by risk managers was necessary. Such further consideration was reflected in the corresponding review reports (9) which concluded that these substances are not pathogenic to humans and are not expected to produce toxins that are relevant for human health. In view of those conclusions, the Commission considers that the inclusion of such substances in Annex IV to Regulation (EC) No 396/2005 is appropriate.

That's from COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2015/896

of 11 June 2015

here http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2015.147.01.0003.01.ENG

What I do like about the EU though is they are on it where protecting consumers is concerned. Years ahead of countries like the US and Australia where regulations are concerned. Lol they have banned half the organic components commonly used if organic farming because of the potential health risks they pose - many of them having carcinogenic potential/properties Actually the UK and I believe the EU have banned organic producers claiming that organic produce is healthier, tastier and more nutritious. Meantime, the mung head corpo capitalists in the US and elsewhere are allowed to spin BS to consumers.

Dude i am not that smart but i talked with the agricultural department in my woods and they told me its because of some allergi effect that have been reported so its been taken of the list of products that is allowed to sold to private consumers.

Also the dark master n related products was taken of the market because of other chemical compunds was found in there and not because of the phospholipid or ?

Btw i really dig your post, thanks !

 

[glow]

Dude i am not that smart but i talked with the agricultural department in my woods and they told me its because of some allergi effect that have been reported so you cant market it to privates.

Btw i really dig your post, thanks for your reply

Yeah its feasible which is why I asked, It may relate to specific species or strains though - Like re bennies (albeit bacteria versus beneficial fungi) Bacillus subtillus is good stuff but Bacillus anthracis is anthrax and will kill your arse. I think though looking at the data many Trichoderma species would still be being sold to the Joe public in the EU.

And yes Superdud aka phospholaod was yanked because it was found to contain long banned for use on consumable crops Alar along with heavily regulated (for the most part not registered for use on consumable crops) paclobutrazol. See http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydro-hype/27-pgrs-and-medical-marijuana.html Doubt it contained phospholipids at all and rare earth elements I expect relate to cheap assed humic acid - Craig Gribble from Dark Master is an utter piece of shit that would pimp his mother for a buck.

 

[Avenger]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423815301990

my current favorite phosphite biostimulant is SiTKO 0-7-17 with silicon and Salicylic acid from Growth Products. But their regular TKO 0-29-26 is a 100% phosphite solution (by 100% phosphite I mean no phosphate and no other salts in solution, just potassium phosphite, I don't mean 100% by weight).

one of these days I will get my hands on Haifa Protek.

A couple of things are for sure, phosphite is not a phospholipid and it should not be the sole source of phosphorous nutrition for plants.



Phospholipids as plant growth regulators

 

[Dkgrower]

Yeah its feasible which is why I asked, It may relate to specific species or strains though - Like re bennies (albeit bacteria versus beneficial fungi) Bacillus subtillus is good stuff but Bacillus anthracis is anthrax and will kill your arse. I think though looking at the data many Trichoderma species would still be being sold to the Joe public in the EU.

They only test products that are registered and take canna's boost its only listed as containing P and K, i asked the agricultural department if it contained biostimulants of some sort and they told me it was registered as only containing P and K also in there test they would properly not look very broad and they most of the time just want the NPK values to match, check for heavy metals, that what they told me they are looking for =)

 

[Dkgrower]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423815301990

my current favorite phosphite biostimulant is SiTKO 0-7-17 with silicon and Salicylic acid from Growth Products. But their regular TKO 0-29-26 is a 100% phosphite solution.

one of these days I will get my hands on Haifa Protek.

A couple of things are for sure, phosphite is not a phospholipid and it should not be the sole source of phosphorous nutrition for plants.



Phospholipids as plant growth regulators

Why u hooked on the Haifa Protek, that SiTKO Sa sound sweet =)
I used tons of Haifa poly-feed foliar line and loved them i used to see that Protek and newer even thought what it was


You think 40 PPM is to much ?, i run a pretty high P regime from 50 when just rooted and then i drop it to 30 in veg and in start flower with 100 stepping upto 120 peaking with 150PPM P in peak bloom =)

I only use the phosphite when plants just have rooted and then in peak bloom at that 40PPM so its roughly 1/3 of the P that comes from the phosphite in peak bloom and i just checked 50% when they just are rooted..

 

[glow]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423815301990

my current favorite phosphite biostimulant is SiTKO 0-7-17 with silicon and Salicylic acid from Growth Products. But their regular TKO 0-29-26 is a 100% phosphite solution (by 100% phosphite I mean no phosphate and no other salts in solution, just potassium phosphite, I don't mean 100% by weight).

one of these days I will get my hands on Haifa Protek.

A couple of things are for sure, phosphite is not a phospholipid and it should not be the sole source of phosphorous nutrition for plants.



Phospholipids as plant growth regulators

For sure man - the whole growth stress response thing makes for some seriously heavy reading. Practices such as MIS and the exogenous application of molecules such a Pi. Science is still trying to understand what occurs in a lot of cases but what seems apparent is that there is a complex cross talk between the endogenous phytohormones in the plant when stress is induced. So definitely, for example, you can induce the stress response in plants to reduce stem elongation. What seems to happen here is (with caution) stress inhibits endogenous levels of GA and stimulates endogenous cytokinin and ethylene levels. So is there any value to Phi. Yes I expect so when used at the right times and rates. Always need to be somewhat careful though at looking at soil research and applying this to hydroponics and also need to carefully dissect the methodology - one set of research findings in Ag doesn't equate to a definitive answer as one swallow doesn't make a summer.

 

[glow]

They only test products that are registered and take canna's boost its only listed as containing P and K, i asked the agricultural department if it contained biostimulants of some sort and they told me it was registered as only containing P and K also in there test they would properly not look very broad and they most of the time just want the NPK values to match, check for heavy metals, that what they told me they are looking for =)

Even where they do test for PGRs the list is massive and they are only testing for a select few. I should know because I advised them which PGRs to test for (re the CDFA and ODA) and have been updating them ever since as new information comes to light. So bottom line I think you will find both Boost and Bloombastic incorporate PGRs and other components.

 

[Bubbamaniac]

I know a few cats running salts, and mixing there own fertilizer. Yes it's cheap but for me personally I've never seen flowers fro. Raw salt ferts that made me personally jump for joy. I'm not saying it can't be done but really I run a premium flower fertilizer with a nice chunk of additives and for what I get back in yields and crop quality I'm not shedding any tears..

 

[glow]

I know a few cats running salts, and mixing there own fertilizer. Yes it's cheap but for me personally I've never seen flowers fro. Raw salt ferts that made me personally jump for joy. I'm not saying it can't be done but really I run a premium flower fertilizer with a nice chunk of additives and for what I get back in yields and crop quality I'm not shedding any tears..

ummm what do you think you are using now other than maybe a low percentage of "salts" and a high percentage of water? I think a lot of the problem that exists now is a lot of growers who have no idea about formulation are formulating. Then comes along Hydrobuddy Yay they scream - something in life for free (if you rule out his $100 an hour consultancy fee and $50 to answer a single question). The 'Hydroduddy' (as I call it where novices are concerned) users go yay we can formulate from labels (free lab analysis and free software - freeeeee freeeeee freeee!

As you have seen though formulating from labels is a disaster in the making - unfortunately Mr Hydroduddy the nutrient chemist never hammered home this point so what we end up with is a cluster fuck of unskilled wannabe formulators formulating subpar nutrient solutions. This thread has been a perfect example of this where a complete novice was spamming dubious formulas as reverse engineered with his end game being to sell fertilizers to those so silly as to use his formulas.

Yay free formulas the novices scream. Just go to Open-Salt and yay free freee freee! Never mind this clueless clown has no idea! Thus, fact is though nothing could have been further from the truth, Free now - pay later in yields! Yeah great math, save a few bucks to lose thousands. Now that really is rocket science! Great math lol. Of course it then gives home formulation a bad name by some. But it has nothing to do with home formulation and everything to do with the quality of information novices are getting about formulating.

Keep an eye on www.manicbotanix.com over the next couple of months. We're going to start educating growers on formulation science. It's way more complex than having a piece of software - although where Smart! software is concerned ($539 to $1159) novices could get good formulas because it has a massive data base that is being constantly added to by its users and formulates based on great data pertaining to crop type, water type and soil/substrate analysis etc (you always get what you pay for in this life as an absolute rule of physics/capitalism - freee freee freee? No such thing! There's always a cost even if it is hidden)

Given Mr Blah is using Smart it is a real worry because it's the wrong piece of software to use and isn't being added to by cannabis growers re the DB (great for tomatoes etc). But a sad indictment on what is actually a great piece of software (used it in the past myself - they were kind enough to throw a freebie my way for trialling and would highly recommend it for fertigation formulation of numerous commercially produced Ag crops)


Putting lesson plans together now on formulation science aghhhhh!!! Painful!


New site will be up though I hope in about a month - 2 months on the outside. Stay tuned!

 

[Bubbamaniac]

To run a full 12k (1000w hps) grow that's my room for my own example here this is the list of what I run in nutrients priced out.
2 gallons of Cyco bloom A 60.00
2 gallons of Chco bloom B 60.00
1 gallon of Botanicate Cal Mag about 45.00
1 gallon of Botanicare Liquid Karma about 60.00
1 gallon of Advanced nutrients Big Bud 140.00
1 gallon of Advanced nutrients B-52 about 140.00
1 quart of Advanced nutrients carbo load 35.00
1 gallon of Motherload (molasses) 25.00
2 liters of Advanced nutrients overdrive 90.00
2 bottles of sea green 120.00
2 liters of pro tekt silicate 26.00
All that equals 801.00 dollars plus taxes added after.............
Now I average 1.75 units per 1000k
That's about 21 ( we usually pull down 20 after paying trim help )
So I guess what I'm saying is for around 800$ I really don't need to learn chemistry instead I'm constantly monitoring all the other parts of the grow like stocking medium, cleaning hoods, vegging the next run, cloning the next run, etc.
so I guess why not run an over the counter formula and spend the time on more productive things other then playing lab tech? Please don't be offended I'm not trying to argue it just doesn't make sense for me. Every sample I've seen of salt grown buds, (home brew) reminded me of over ferted weed grown with GH 3 part and not flushed out at all. Like I said I basically piss on the couple hundred bucks in exchange for time well spent being busy on other stuff. The garden I speak of is starting flush now I could post some pics of it in Tuesday if needed to back up my point a few branches covers the fertilizer lol again just not getting the point. If it's about trimming the fat on over head it makes me wonder why? Not top shelf flowers? Lower yield? High Overhead? Saturated market? Low numbers on units due to Over saturation? I'm just trying to comprehend why this is necessary, or is the claim that superior products can be produced at home with some skill?

 

[MisterBlah]

it's the wrong piece of software to use and isn't being added to by cannabis growers re the DB (great for tomatoes etc).

You of all people know why cannabis growers wouldn't be adding to the DB. They are way too egotistical to think that what they are doing is so good that it warrants being called a trade secret. There is a significant problem of growers being unwilling to share information.

 

[glow]

To run a full 12k (1000w hps) grow that's my room for my own example here this is the list of what I run in nutrients priced out.
2 gallons of Cyco bloom A 60.00
2 gallons of Chco bloom B 60.00
1 gallon of Botanicate Cal Mag about 45.00
1 gallon of Botanicare Liquid Karma about 60.00
1 gallon of Advanced nutrients Big Bud 140.00
1 gallon of Advanced nutrients B-52 about 140.00
1 quart of Advanced nutrients carbo load 35.00
1 gallon of Motherload (molasses) 25.00
2 liters of Advanced nutrients overdrive 90.00
2 bottles of sea green 120.00
2 liters of pro tekt silicate 26.00
All that equals 801.00 dollars plus taxes added after.............
Now I average 1.75 units per 1000k
That's about 21 ( we usually pull down 20 after paying trim help )
So I guess what I'm saying is for around 800$ I really don't need to learn chemistry instead I'm constantly monitoring all the other parts of the grow like stocking medium, cleaning hoods, vegging the next run, cloning the next run, etc.
so I guess why not run an over the counter formula and spend the time on more productive things other then playing lab tech? Please don't be offended I'm not trying to argue it just doesn't make sense for me. Every sample I've seen of salt grown buds, (home brew) reminded me of over ferted weed grown with GH 3 part and not flushed out at all. Like I said I basically piss on the couple hundred bucks in exchange for time well spent being busy on other stuff. The garden I speak of is starting flush now I could post some pics of it in Tuesday if needed to back up my point a few branches covers the fertilizer lol again just not getting the point. If it's about trimming the fat on over head it makes me wonder why? Not top shelf flowers? Lower yield? High Overhead? Saturated market? Low numbers on units due to Over saturation? I'm just trying to comprehend why this is necessary, or is the claim that superior products can be produced at home with some skill?

Hey Bubba with your like 11 posts and all I'm wondering what you are doing here throwing the thread off topic and talking about the masses of bottles you seem to think are required to grow a plant to optimum, You should go work in a hydro store pal!! lol


My suggestion is you should go start a thread about what you'd like to talk about because it has nothing to do with reverse engineering formulas re what you're spinning or trying to sell here,

 

[glow]

You of all people know why cannabis growers wouldn't be adding to the DB. They are way too egotistical to think that what they are doing is so good that it warrants being called a trade secret. There is a significant problem of growers being unwilling to share information.

This forum and dozens just like it are where growers share information MisterBlah - you're looking to share bad info to gain commercially so what you are doing and what you are talking about are two different things,


As a tip I wouldn't look to growers for formulation info - I would be speaking to chemists, agronomists etc. Growers grow - chemists do chemistry. So you perhaps need to go to another form of forum to learn chem and sell your wares on grow forums.

 

[Dkgrower]

@Bubbamanic

yes you can make far better product yourself if you know what you are doing and you have the power to shop at some large agri cultural dealer.

Also i can really understand u want to spend your time different n choose canna products i been there to and just moved to a more simple and scientific solution, dont think i settel for crappy buds only top shelf hard nugs, full of bag appeal

@Mister i wound mind sharing my data but i dont really find that pepol are willing to do the same or have a forum where its the premis.. i personally payed 1000 dollars to aqquire just a speard sheet and its the same as what AN and erick biksa used, so yes people are not very willing to share info

@glow i second that motion maby i am to naive about pepols agenda, i personally deal in canna fert products but you see me here argueing for pepol to go out n mix it them self..i think its kinda room for all types and most will properly always choose a product that looks cool with a cool sounding name, thats my filisophy

I personally get all my formulation mixed and tested by north europa largest fluide fertiliser company, they have lab that only does that for there customors, a super service and the dude is really fun n cool to work with
you give him the target values and he his comment is always, gonna go down in the lab n see how we can meet those targets, then he comes back with some results and he is always bugged about not being abel to meet all targets but then he has some super input on how to meet those or get around it..

 

[glow]

@Bubbamanic

yes you can make far better product yourself if you know what you are doing and you have the power to shop at some large agri cultural dealer.

Also i can really understand u want to spend your time different n choose canna products i been there to and just moved to a more simple and scientific solution, dont think i settel for crappy buds only top shelf hard nugs, full of bag appeal

@Mister i wound mind sharing my data but i dont really find that pepol are willing to do the same or have a forum where its the premis.. i personally payed 1000 dollars to aqquire just a speard sheet and its the same as what AN and erick biksa used.

Yep but in any industry, which let's not kid ourselves the Canna game is (how many growers give their produce away?), intellectual property and skills have a value and only a fool would give for free what has a high value to those who sell a high value crop. It's one of the things that makes me laugh mate. I used to work in hydro stores and it drove me mad. Essentially everyone wants something for nothing - they'd say something stupid like 20 bucks is a rip off (for an additive etc). I'd respond nah mate someone had to develop this, pay rents, pay other overheads, pay for bottles and labels and pay staff to produce this product. You on the other hand sell a freaking weed for 300 an ounce - that my friend is a rip off!

And nice one DK Grower for putting out the love. Here's the thing about our friend MrBlah - from what I have seen he has two websites. Both are put up for commercial gain _ i.e. to advertise and promote his business interests so he can generate income from these sites. But here he is saying people don't share lol. Hey MrBlah you're only sharing to generate revenue. Worse mate you haven't even invested money in lab analysis and as far as I can tell you haven't invested years and loads of cash in a higher education (if you have it certainly isn't in chem). Meantime of course you are looking to earn without investing. Yin and yang my friend. What you put in is what you get out. Tell you what though when you have paid for your lab analysis put it up for "growers" to access and put the formulas next to them to inspire trust. If you've done a good job I'll give you a plug Oh and MrBlah if your formulas are terrible I will be warning people not to use them. So invest wisely and do the hard yards of getting it right.

 

[Avenger]

What software would that be, Dkgrower?

 

[Bubbamaniac]

Hey Bubba with your like 11 posts and all I'm wondering what you are doing here throwing the thread off topic and talking about the masses of bottles you seem to think are required to grow a plant to optimum, You should go work in a hydro store pal!! lol


My suggestion is you should go start a thread about what you'd like to talk about because it has nothing to do with reverse engineering formulas re what you're spinning or trying to sell here,

Ok with my 11 posts lol, your cute...
Anyways maybe you can take a deep breath and try to not act like a little kid. I wasn't attacking you, nothing here is personal to sum it up, I just couldn't understand why so much thought and effort would be put into something like making/mixing your own fertilizer and my ultimate question OH wise one, was basically is this because your cheap? Or are you making a superior product? If your making higher grade fertilizers, that perform differently or better then expensive name brands then it would make much better sense to me. I only listed what I run and the cost as a point of reference I figured a smart guy like you would of recognized that? You can keep arguing your points though because I love trying to talk to people who have awesome attitudes like


@DkGrower thanks for clearing that up for me brotha, that's pretty much what I was asking. I didn't claim all raw salt buds are poop or anything just the particular samples that I saw were. Also it was very clear the samples I saw were not flushed out like at all super nasty bite accompanied by snap crackle pop lol. So again thank you very much I do appreciate the input and you taking the time to give me a straight forward answer and not in the form of flaming lol...

 

[glow]

Ok with my 11 posts lol, your cute...
Anyways maybe you can take a deep breath and try to not act like a little kid. I wasn't attacking you, nothing here is personal to sum it up, I just couldn't understand why so much thought and effort would be put into something like making/mixing your own fertilizer and my ultimate question OH wise one, was basically is this because your cheap? Or are you making a superior product? If your making higher grade fertilizers, that perform differently or better then expensive name brands then it would make much better sense to me. I only listed what I run and the cost as a point of reference I figured a smart guy like you would of recognized that? You can keep arguing your points though because I love trying to talk to people who have awesome attitudes like


@DkGrower thanks for clearing that up for me brotha, that's pretty much what I was asking. I didn't claim all raw salt buds are poop or anything just the particular samples that I saw were. Also it was very clear the samples I saw were not flushed out like at all super nasty bite accompanied by snap crackle pop lol. So again thank you very much I do appreciate the input and you taking the time to give me a straight forward answer and not in the form of flaming lol...

To answer your question re formulating your own - it's because you get better yields by understanding plant nutritional science and applying that science. Bottled products are at best a one size fits all situation and at the very best a great compromise to providing the plant with optimised nutrition.

So now let me throw a question back your way - with your vast array of numerous bottles you use.... Q: what ppm in solution do they add re each nutrient sprecies at which stages of growth and bloom?

Besides the ppm of nutrient elements you are adding to solution what other actives are you adding through your vast array of nutrients and additives?

I guess ultimately this thread is more about science than randomly throwing off the shelf nutrients and additives into solution. The point really being is you have dropped in and then started talking about a completely different thing. So basically you're off topic pal.

lol, your cute... That would be "you're" as in you are and trust me if you ever had the nuts to say that to my face you'd be paying a visit to the ED.

lol "Anyways maybe you can take a deep breath and try to not act like a little kid. I wasn't attacking you," ah but you just did

" nothing here is personal to sum it up" oh but I bet it is

"I figured a smart guy like you would of recognized that? " That's a statement - not a question (grammar)

"OH wise one, was basically is this because your cheap?" Tut! Tut! Tut! your head really is a train wreck isn't it?

"If your making higher grade fertilizers, that perform differently or better then expensive name brands then it would make much better sense to me." Yes I am running a far higher grade of fertilizer program than randomly throwing bottles of over hyped shit at things.

"You can keep arguing your points though because I love trying to talk to people who have awesome attitudes like" Lol dude seriously DON'T FEED THE TROLL people.

 

[Bubbamaniac]

I'm the troll lol! Another internet tough guy power behind the keyboard playa! I'm sure your super tough click, click, click.... Lol have your thread, where you just demoralize everybody who disagrees with you, it's not even a conversation it's just you trying to scold people your a tool keep your thread rolling champ lol... Good luck