Seedling Feed Rate Experiment

[RandomMan]

None of your plants look good. Your soil was to hot or something for those seedlings to look like that.

I could plant a seed right now and in the same times as yours it will be better than them all.

Not trying to be a dick because this was a good experiment in theory but something went astray.

You might want to go back in the thread and read it in it's entirety. This is pretty selfless experimentation that is truly beneficial to anyone who likes to continually learn and improve their green thumbs. I, for one, will never quit learning.

I'm not being a dick, either, so please don't hear me as such. Simply put, thread is invaluable to those of us who don't have the luxury of being able to test this stuff ourselves.

Most of the plants that don't "look good" have good reason to look the way they do.

Peace to you, no offense intended.

@Dave = thanks for your efforts, sir.

EDIT: For what it's worth - I've been lurking these forums since 2007-2008 and am just trying to get the disagreements to end so the thread can continue on. You and bonghits have both stated your points. Not much reason to keep the thread dragged down with negativity. I wish the best to both of y'all and hope not to offend anyone. We are all entitled to our own opinions.... Blessed vibes to everyone in this thread.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

ILOVETOBERUDE quit being defensive. I chimed in and gave my opinion. I can read and did read. I can also express my point of view better than your aggressive nonsense.

He stated he was doing an experiment to see if seedlings didn't need fertilizer until their cotyledons were used up. That would have been a great experiment. But then he added more factors that just muddled the results.

He used promix. It doesn't have anything in it. No minerals... nothing.

Then he used RO water. It has nothing in it. Nothing.

Then he 12/12 them. That alone ruined the experiment.

Seedlings in nature grow in natural soil. They get water that has minerals and micro nutrients.

In nature they start to sprout when it is 12/12 or less but the day length is getting longer each day. Seedlings won't flower in the spring because they sense the decreasing darkness. They are not sexually mature and sense the decreasing darkness. But with prolonged steady 12/12 they get screwed up.

Cotyledons are food for seedlings and mostly nitrogen. They don't have micronutrients, calcium or magnesium. They expect the plant to get that from the soil and water.

What has happened is that growers, like you and some others, heard outdoor growers who start seeds tell people that seedlings don't need anything for the first few weeks of life because the cotyledons will sustain them.

That got expanded so indoor growers that use promix and coco figured that they can just water with RO water and all will be well. It won't.

This experiment should have been called "Let's find out if seedlings can live in sterile medium, watered with RO water and placed under 12/12 from the very start".

That is way different then "Let's find out if seedlings started in natural soil and watered with rain water need food for the first 4 weeks of life".

How about you try to have a scientific discussion and stop with the BS can't read, didn't read or new person coming on the site. I have been on this site off and on since 2006.

I didn't attack the OP. I merely stated my thoughts. He posted the thread. You think he didn't want feedback or just wanted positive feedback.

There were control flaws in the experiment. It doesn't mean his experiment didn't have merit. It just means if he is searching for the true answer IMHO the experiment needs set up differently.

no ones being defensive, trying to keep you from looking like a bigger idiot. he knows he used soil with no nutes. that was the point. he was trying to see how long plants go before you should need to feed them. based on his experiments that seems to be somewhere around 8-10 days from seed.

Natural outside soil does have nutrients...no shit. if you read the thread you would know the whole point of this experiment was to find out if feeding plants before the cotyledons fall off makes any difference.

Yes, seems to be what the experiment shows, but only after the first week above ground. before that they don't use it.

science. simple.


also...

12/12 from seed. this plant is stunted. otherwise it would look like...

this because plants wont start flowering or show sex till roughly 3-4 weeks even at 12/12. i did 12/12 for a lotta years. we can argue and debate but just a warning i have experience and proof.

so i really don't know what 12/12 from seed has to do with anything. he cut the experiment all 2? 3 times now is it? at 21 days. it's just an experiment to see if adding food before cotyledons fall off has any benefit. it does.


Lastly...but not leastly...Why the fuck would he be doing experiments with rainwater and garden compost? Do you have rain and outside dirt in your grow room? Mines just got pots and coco, and i water with tapwater mixed with nutes. i mean like seriously are you just trolling? why the fuck would we be doing unrealistic experiments that have fuck all to do with real growing that we actually do in our grow rooms.

Next experiment, do cat's and frogs get along, can it boost your yield?

Can you use Toxic waste and Acid as an All in one Nutrient and totally eliminate Cal-Mag from your regiment? stay tuned to find out.

 

[Dave Coulier]

None of your plants look good. Your soil was to hot or something for those seedlings to look like that.

I could plant a seed right now and in the same times as yours it will be better than them all.

Not trying to be a dick because this was a good experiment in theory but something went astray.

Your entitled to your own opinion, but I do not believe it is one that will gain you many friends in this regard. The first thing I did was go look at your albums, so I could witness how well you do it, but I saw no pictures of seedlings at all. Nor did I see any grow logs that show how well you really do it. I did happen to see a post by Azez on your wall saying 'Sup Troll'..I wonder why people call you a troll?

The plants all look stunted. They all already have yellowing bottom leaves. The internal spacing is all jammed up.

Let us just concentrate on the unfertilized seedlings. You all think they look normal? They don't. They are messed up. The 12/12 from seed made this experiment tilted from the get go.

Im pretty sure I already cleared up why there is yellowing leaves on the bottom of these plants. The 75N group was never fed enough to begin with, and the 150N group could be fed MORE as evidenced by the N deficiency on the lowest leaves.

As for nodal spacing, Im pretty sure I already said why I grow them small and what I do to achieve it. Small containers = small plants that will not overgrow my limited space. I can grow much larger plants so dont you worry about that. I can put 8-10 nodes of growth on a plant in under 8 inches of height easily, while often time other growers post plants that have the same amount of growth but they've stretched like crazy, but to the laymens eye they've outgrown mine by miles..

Your right my seedlings are messed up. Hell they're even stunted. Did you really expect them to outdo the plants receiving food or something?

Btw the first round was 12/12 from seed. This group was under 18/6, yet in both trials we clearly saw feed levels have a huge impact on plant growth early on. This thread was never about growing the largest plant, or growing the fastest plant ever. It was about achieving an optimal level of feed that will provide vigorous seedlings.

If there is nothing of value in this thread for you, then you are welcome to peruse other threads. Maybe they will benefit from your wisdom and insight there.

Btw, like Stigh said, you seem to have some confusion regarding on what were trying to achieve here. Im aware of the lack of nutrients in the RO/DI water, and the lower fertility levels of promix. Thats how I wanted them. Overall I wanted to know which WSF feed level is going to give the most vigorous plants, and having other sources of fertility in the water or EWC, etc would dilute the findings. How can I tell what affect the WSF levels are having if there are alternative sources of fertility?

 

[iTarzan]

Some people eliminated all their pictures when the shit hit the fan on ICmag.

I don't think I ever heard a grower with any experience ever claim seedlings in promix, coco and watered with RO didn't need any fertilizer until the cotyledons fell off.

I thought in an experiment thread you would want open discussion. I was evidently wrong.

You can carry on without any further input from me.

 

[stihgnobevoli]

i think you should prolly reread the thread carefully, i'll forget any of this ever happened and we'll start over. hey tarzan how's it going buddy.?

 

[Dropped Cat]

Some people eliminated all their pictures when the shit hit the fan on ICmag.

I don't think I ever heard a grower with any experience ever claim seedlings in promix, coco and watered with RO didn't need any fertilizer until the cotyledons fell off.

I thought in an experiment thread you would want open discussion. I was evidently wrong.

You can carry on without any further input from me.

Before I posted in this thread I searched other threads about
seedlings and even cuttings with regard to feed rates.

I read at least 150 related posts before I posted in this thread.

To my surprise I found there are many growers that to this day
only feed seedlings after they show deficiencies.

I like to contribute with informed questions and even will admit
ignorance on a given topic, so as to gain support from like minded,
curious people on these boards.

There is nothing wrong with breezing into an active thread and
mixing it up, you just lack knowledge of the subject presented
here to argue it with any authority, and that's just silly.

 

[Dave Coulier]

Some people eliminated all their pictures when the shit hit the fan on ICmag.

I don't think I ever heard a grower with any experience ever claim seedlings in promix, coco and watered with RO didn't need any fertilizer until the cotyledons fell off.

I thought in an experiment thread you would want open discussion. I was evidently wrong.

You can carry on without any further input from me.

Fair enough on the pictures. Im sure you can produce some fast growing seedlings in your garden, but this thread was never about the growth rate of your plants versus mine. There's always someone that can do it bigger and better than you or I. Im just trying to achieve healthy vigorous plants, and experimenting is the fastest way to achieve that.

The common wisdom among these boards is to let the cotyledons go yellow before feeding just as DroppedCat has mentioned. Its the same thing I noticed when I was a newbie first growing and reading these boards. I followed the status quo and got stunted slow growing plants in return.

You're more than welcome to provide input in this thread, but I would ask that you read the thread in its entirety beforehand. The first impression you gave off is that you did not read it but rather skimmed over the pictures and immediately chimed in without really knowing what is going on. From my perspective that is not endearing in the slightest. Im sure you can understand how that would be unsettling for me.

Spend some time to read the thread, if you have any questions or concerns speak freely and I will do my best to respond in a similar manner.

 

[Dropped Cat]

My ambient temps are making my plants angry.

I'm using seedling mats to keep my flowering plants
root zone warmer. The veg plants are okay, just slow
growth.

I grow in a non climate controlled building, and temps
in the grow area are averaging lower 50's F, in the boxes,
slightly higher.

Any new seedlings or cuttings will have to wait, lol.

DC, do you also have cold area issues? I think I remember
something about burst pipes and such.

I was caught by surprise by the colder than usual winter, average
temps are 15 degrees below normal since December.

It's a wait and see kind of thing.

 

[Dave Coulier]

My ambient temps are making my plants angry.

I'm using seedling mats to keep my flowering plants
root zone warmer. The veg plants are okay, just slow
growth.

I grow in a non climate controlled building, and temps
in the grow area are averaging lower 50's F, in the boxes,
slightly higher.

Any new seedlings or cuttings will have to wait, lol.

DC, do you also have cold area issues? I think I remember
something about burst pipes and such.

I was caught by surprise by the colder than usual winter, average
temps are 15 degrees below normal since December.

It's a wait and see kind of thing.

Sorry to hear you are having cold issues too. This cold snap couldn't come to a quicker end, but now were getting a second wave of it along with more snow. Great.

Ive already fixed 4 burst pipes, and I have at least 1 more pipe to fix and that one is behind my shower wall. Ive already had to fix it in a prior year, but its not as hard as it sound to get to. Plus I have at least two fittings that are leaking, so got to get replacements for them.

My plants and my electric bill will be much happier when things begin to warm up again. I hope yours hold out till then.

 

[Dropped Cat]

The seedling mats make a world of difference, we'll do just fine
till the spring temps come in.

Good luck with your ongoing projects, and will drop in again soon!

 

[Dave Coulier]

The seedling mats make a world of difference, we'll do just fine
till the spring temps come in.

Good luck with your ongoing projects, and will drop in again soon!

Tell me about it. If I turn the heating mat off for too long the plants begin to droop as the rootball cools down, but as soon as it heats back up they get perky again. I finally rummaged around and found my thermostat with attached temperature probe which Ive inserted up the bottom of plants rootball. Its time to familiarize myself with it again after not using it for years.

Thanks for the good vibes. I think my next project may just be finally starting my Afropips Durban Poison Ive had sitting in my freezer for a few years. Its their time to shine. Anyone want to see Durban in the future?

 

[TheRealHash]

I thought keeping seeds in the freezer could damage them-

I need to get some good Durban beans myself. I'm definitely interested in seeing some Durban.

 

[RandomMan]

I thought keeping seeds in the freezer could damage them-

I need to get some good Durban beans myself. I'm definitely interested in seeing some Durban.

Colder the better as far as my research has led me to believe. Cryogenic freezers (though highly unreasonably priced) are ideal for keeping beans. Pretty sure one of the better known old school breeders that post in IC has a write up about it but I can't find it at the moment. He was talking about pollen and beans good for 17+ years.

I hate to post advice on stuff I don't have personal experience with, so anyone feel free to correct me if I misunderstood this theory.

On the note of personal experience, I've had beans for 7-9 years that have had 100% germ rates and they were put in the freezer as soon as I received them (20 or so is all I popped, but still)... All of my beans go in the freezer the first day I get them. I'd guess my overall germ rate is closer to 95-98% on beans 5+ years old and that's no exaggeration.

I'm sure not the most experienced but feel like this is pretty solid advice.

Hope it helps...

 

[Dropped Cat]

Must have low moisture content in them seeds before frozen.

Many lost seeds if frozen too moist, too soon after harvest.

 

[Dave Coulier]

I thought keeping seeds in the freezer could damage them-

I need to get some good Durban beans myself. I'm definitely interested in seeing some Durban.

RandomMan is right, the freezer wont harm them. You have to remember Marijuana is an annual, which means seeds are deposited in fall, and germinate in spring, yet in between they must endure winter and the often times freezing temperatures with it.

 

[Dave Coulier]

Hey all, If you enjoy seeing seedlings growing as much as I do, then please check out my GN Thai Stick & Afropips Durban Poison grow in my signature.

My feeding has changed somewhat for my seedlings now, for the better. Im using WSF + CRF(Osmocote) to meet the plants nutritional needs, and I think they're performing excellent with this approach. If you want to see how the combo plays out longterm come on over. These Thai and DP will give us alot of time to judge the results.

 

[Trich_Tyson]

Thanks Dave for linking the thread and clearing the air. I'll be reading more thoroughly when I get home
+love. I don't think I can thank yet

 

[Dave Coulier]

Thanks Dave for linking the thread and clearing the air. I'll be reading more thoroughly when I get home
+love. I don't think I can thank yet

No problem Trich. I hope you enjoy the thread, and learn something from it. Seems like this thread could be a good read for first time growers who are unsure when and how often to feed. If you have any follow up questions, let em rip.

 

[indalo]

Thank you very much , Dave . I was glad to see the diff . in them. Got 3 week old going with ppm at 560 , and they love it . ( Canna A + B ) + Rhizotonic . The last few grows of mine has been so and so because I started taking advice from net. about not feeding seedlings for 2 weeks . Wish I read this 12 mnts. ago , lol Anyway , potting up time to 1 1/2 L , plenty to do . Cheers

 

[Dave Coulier]

Im glad the thread was of help to you. Its hard to sift through all the misinformation on the threads. Thats why I like experimenting and trying new things. Its the best way to learn rather than relying on what someone on some random forum said

You're clearly on the right track at this point. Keep up the fine work, and keep them green.

Thank you very much , Dave . I was glad to see the diff . in them. Got 3 week old going with ppm at 560 , and they love it . ( Canna A + B ) + Rhizotonic . The last few grows of mine has been so and so because I started taking advice from net. about not feeding seedlings for 2 weeks . Wish I read this 12 mnts. ago , lol Anyway , potting up time to 1 1/2 L , plenty to do . Cheers