Reversed Backcrossing:)

[Forest20]

I would love to see a pseudo chart of your plan?

 

[Londinium]

Wotcha Rick....Don't wanna put u off bruvvah but Its gonna take a hell of a lot of plants to even work out which out of the traits u like is dominant or recessive in the first place and a hell of a lot of pollen to go about it and u aren't likely to get much pollen by stressing the plant to make fem pollen anyhoo.Let alone the fact it won't necessarily breed more true (just because you've Bottle-necked the Genetics even more) as most buyers of Fem versions of Top strains have discovered at their peril.One of the reasons some of the more Experienced peeps are warning u a little is that multiple backcrossing whether Straight or Gay is still backcrossing and Cheese isn't gonna respond well to it in terms of vigour etc....and who needs vigourless cheese seeds when we've all already got the cut and there are people making great queso crosses all over the place....some of which are deffo an improvement IMHO... If u r determined then I won't try to stop ya but promise me u will use Males in some of your projects because if we all do Fem-Breeding We Will Be F--ked...Honestly...It's a bit lazy and can be detrimental to the Gene pool many of us are trying to look after....Luck and Lumens JBo

 

[englishrick]

this is a grate conversation for me.....thankyou guys for all your imput



im gona try to answer all the questions here on this thread to the best of my ability,,,,,,forgive me if i miss "your" question with this responce, il reply as soon as i can





im under the asumption that: if i split an incrossed line, an i take the 2 lines in totaly different directions,,then eventualy the lines will be different enough to make an F series by crossing the two......am i wrong?

S1 seeds are similar to incrossed seeds,,,,,imo,,,,,,,,,so il seperate "S" lines an make F1`s after ive made the lines different enough,,,

im thinkin ,,,if it is possible to make F1`s through the crossing of 2 seperate "S" lines derived from the same mother,,,,,then what will the REVERCED BACKCROSS seed be??




Forest20,,,,im having a hard time figuring out what a pseudo chart should look like ...any advise?......i do make a type of breeding map,,is that the same thing? ....il put some of my maps on, so you can see them

 

[englishrick]

Wotcha Rick....Don't wanna put u off bruvvah but Its gonna take a hell of a lot of plants to even work out which out of the traits u like is dominant or recessive in the first place and a hell of a lot of pollen to go about it and u aren't likely to get much pollen by stressing the plant to make fem pollen anyhoo.Let alone the fact it won't necessarily breed more true (just because you've Bottle-necked the Genetics even more) as most buyers of Fem versions of Top strains have discovered at their peril.One of the reasons some of the more Experienced peeps are warning u a little is that multiple backcrossing whether Straight or Gay is still backcrossing and Cheese isn't gonna respond well to it in terms of vigour etc....and who needs vigourless cheese seeds when we've all already got the cut and there are people making great queso crosses all over the place....some of which are deffo an improvement IMHO... If u r determined then I won't try to stop ya but promise me u will use Males in some of your projects because if we all do Fem-Breeding We Will Be F--ked...Honestly...It's a bit lazy and can be detrimental to the Gene pool many of us are trying to look after....Luck and Lumens JBo

hay londinium

i dont want this project to stay XX cromozone forever,,,,id love to introduce a worked male into the line at a mutch mutch later date,,im not even thinkin about how to work males yet,,,,,,,,,

im supprized you think il need sutch big numbers,,,,

 

[englishrick]

So you want to isolate the stinky part of the cheese in the s whatever line, then breed that line w/ the stinky trait locked in, to wha;t??????
The original cheese clone?
outcross to male skunk, then choose from there and back cross to cheese?

It might help if you make a pedigree chart fo all this so we can see your exact plans

edit: were does this "fem f1" from you say come from if you have an s1 seed line made from cheese, and you cross that back to cheese using a reversal from that how would that be f anything? This question is off your post 2 above this one.

Wouldn't you have to outcross to get f? because cheese reversed to make s1 seeds is s obviously then you grow out those and they are female, which still would be s1's and you reverse those which would be s2 or something but still s, and you take pollen from that and hit up your original female, which would be making s1's pretty much again, well idk im not a breeder but I don't think it is going to equal f anything until you outcross.

yep ,,,i want to isolate the stink an veg profile, ,,id be happy with that!

lets say i have 2 S1 plants from the same mother,,,,i reverce both of them and the resulting seeds are S2, but the 2 lines are now different,,,,an with more work an F1 can be made,,,,,,,,

i guess, the amount of work needed to make F1`s from an incrossed line is debatable

have i said anything wrong guys,,,feel free to point out my mistakes,,,its a grate help

 

[englishrick]

I wish you luck in your project. The Sk#1 line already shows signs of inbreeding depression.

good point bro...i was hoping to avoid this seperating lines to cross an increese hybrid vigor,,,,

thats why i want to make "F1`s",,,

 

[BENJI]

Interesting project Rick bro sounds like alot of work maybe if u had some friends to help you out it with growing and testing and so on you would acheive your goal in a much shorter time...?

OFF TOPIC...
What gets me is why people use skunky afghan males and not skunk#1 males isnt this were cheese came from ??

 

[englishrick]

you cant make an allele dominant. It already has its expression governed. The point I was making is that you dont know if you want dominant or recessive alleles...you just know you want whatever is expressed in the mother plant.

to determine this, youd have to grow out hundreds of s1 progeny of the mother. if you were able to classify all of the expressive possibilities, youd be able to determine which traits were expressed dominantly, and which recessively, based upon the proportions found in the offspring.

from here though, re-combining them into the right combination of the mother plant is going to be nothing short of miraculous.

most likely, because the mother you are hoping to stabilize is probably a partial-recessive expression. Im not saying it cant be done, but its going to take a LOT of work. which is why I say hundreds or thousands of plants. The breeders who do the work dont work with small numbers of plants, and for good reason. Genetics can be a tricky thing, the only way to have confidence behind it is by seeing a VERY large sample group

your a clever guy,,,big respect,,,im starting to love reading your posts



i was hoping to limit phenos by using the Reverced Backcrossed method...once ive found my best S1, i was plannin on using the Cheese polen again to chill the extreem divercity

 

[BENJI]

I think weedninja already answered my off topic question...lol

 

[englishrick]

Interesting project Rick bro sounds like alot of work maybe if u had some friends to help you out it with growing and testing and so on you would acheive your goal in a much shorter time...?

OFF TOPIC...
What gets me is why people use skunky afghan males and not skunk#1 males isnt this were cheese came from ??

i love you benj....

its interesting,,init bro?

 

[englishrick]

why do you want the mothers to be homogeneous? the second you add a father to the line at a subsequent generation, they become hetrogeneous again.

I take it this thread is a follow up from your original one, http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=115954

that thread is basicly my idea to incorperates males,,,that is the end end end point of this whole project,,,,,

 

[englishrick]

I'm not really sure I understand the methodology you're proposing Rick, but isn't the Cheese just OK as it is? I know I'm not a big fan of Cheese anyway, but this sounds like a lot of work for some very unpredictable results. I got cheesy phenos of Skunk #1 X Flo, and neither parent was remotely cheesy - in fact the skunk was about as tropical-fruity as you can get. I got a musky banana pheno (pictured) and a spicy/medicinal pheno too, all from one cross. Also the high was better than Cheese by a mile - much more soaring and crisp, but still as potent.



Just thinking if you want Cheesy-seeds it might be just as easy to find them in other ways than an infinite-regression approach - not that I know what I'm talking about at all when it comes to genetics, but I do prefer males screwing females in 'the old-fashioned way'...

hay EM....do you think its a good thread ??

have i anwerd your question with all my other replys?,,,,il have another go if not

 

[BENJI]

Defo interesting Bro..Im still waiting for Chimera to tune back in with a response..

 

[englishrick]

me too benj

 

[englishrick]

Fair enough, so just to nail down the process that you are planning, as it's an important point to make, if you aren't going to make S9's, and you aren't going to use any males, then can I assume that the plan is to make S1's, then select, then create feminised F2s, Feminised F3s etc to Feminised F9s, or where ever is your chosen ending point before recombining your 2 separated feminised ibl lines into your final feminised "F1" generation, I'm combining what I've read of your plans in your 3 threads here, if I'm making assumptions that I shouldn't please tell me, I'm just trying to get a grip on your plans.

yeh,,i think you do understand it......

what do you think bro,,,is it cool?

 

[englishrick]

Hi Rick,

Cannabis is a diploid organism (one set of chromosomes inherited from each parent)

But you are correct to say outcrossing plants are usually very much heterozygous.

Breeders of outcrossing plants might typically develop several homozygous lines via selfing, then through test crossing release the best f1 combinations of those. I would expect some of these selfed lines to end up with a failing grade and Sam has reported his experience on that. I would also expect some lines to show excellent combining ability when outcrossed, and would also expect some to both outcross well, as well as stand alone as an inbred line worth growing.

In your example Rick, you said you may go to the S2 then backcross to the original clone. I don't see much point in that. If you were not happy with the results of the S1 then it would seem to me the original clone is probably not the best candidate as a parent for backcrossing to.



Hello Chimera,

Good to see you, hope you are well. As you know, I have been looking forward to hearing your thoughts on selfing schemes in general, benefits/drawbacks, realistic expectations etc. You probably guess I plan to dabble a little regardless . The typical conversation on this currently seems mostly limited to the making of females seeds, and I for one look forward to those capable of taking the conversation beyond that, weighing in. Thank you - respectfully.

im addressing the bit i put in bold

im hoping i will be happy with the S1 plants,,,,,i was only sayin il go to S2 just to make sure the traits breed true in an F1 cross,,,,,,the Reverced Backcross is just my atempt to chill-out the extreem divercity and fix traits

 

[dopeshow]

rick... fixing traits is finding that magic mix of dominant and recessive traits between plants. This requires keen selection and progeny testing, or you're never going to know what trait you are working with.... only a shot in the dark guess.

You need to find:

C = cheesey
F= fruity
Cf = dominant cheesey recessive fruity
Fc = dominant for fruity recessive for cheesey

Cf x Fc
Cf
Cc <-- you need a male and female one of these phenotypes
Ff
Fc

And thats assuming there are only two traits for flavor/smell (which its safe to say there are not)

... and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure this is accurate but ya never know

 

[GMT]

Hi, well, there are 2 methods to what you are suggesting, either by picking an individual from each sucessive generation, taking a clone, reversing the sex of the clone and effectively selfing that individual, or by taking 2 mums and turning one into a dad. I have never made femmed beans, nor have I read of anyone using this method repeatedly on a line of cannabis, (they have with wheat etc), and so I'm not sure what the outcome of it all would be. I could make guesses and theorise on the horrors that could happen, but I would only effectively be guessing. The problem that I do see is that not only are you talking about entering into a very long process, but you are talking about doubling the effort needed when you say that you would like to create 2 separate lines using this process. The real problem is deciding what traits you would keep in which line and why.
The other problem is that you are talking about cheese as a stable ibl, which it clearly isn't, it is a mutant SK#1. This means that it has some combination of genes that makes it differ in some ways from the stable population. Therefore its own genome may well not be as homogeneous as you may imagine. The effects of genetic recombination at the creation of haploid cells may well generate a massively diverse set of dna instructions, and not give the results of the homogeneous offspring (using the term not in an XX sense, or in the same line or even same species senses that it can be used to describe, but in the sense of [if one haploid chain contains a recessive trait then the other will too]), that you are looking for. However if you search enough of the offspring, perhaps you will find enough expression to begin selections for the next generation (if a separate mum is to be turned into a dad). And I would use a separate parent even if you wish to feminise the offspring at each stage.
Anyway to cut this short, I haven't seen the experiment done, it could go horrible wrong very quickly, but it could result in the creation of a particular plant that has its own value. I personally wouldn't use this technique, but I am interested in watching the dramas, highs and lows unfold. I don't believe that you will achieve what you are looking to using this method, but like I said, you could find the Cheese V2.0 clone along the way.

 

[englishrick]

yeh,,,im hoping to find a CheeseV2 that breeds true enough....

im hoping to find an Afghan lookalike with the Cheese stink in the S1`s,,,,,,,,

im also hoping to another plant with Cheese veg structure.....

they are the 2 targets ive got in my head,,,,

what do you think GMT?

 

[GMT]

Your chances of finding something exceptional to clone are higher than creating a healthy true breeding line using the techniques you describe, but it's bed time for me, so I'll check in in a few hours.