Mistreatment Of Prisoners Is Called Routine In U.S.

[Guest]

just because it is routine doesnt mean it's ok.

but.... this iraq prisoner treatment bs has gone way too far, i myself would completely understand having a different set of rules for domestic prisoners, and enemy combatants... you think the fanatics over in iraq give 2 shits about how their american prisoners are being treated? probably not.

hell they just lopped a guy's head off on tape, and the poor guys family got to see that.


imo, fuckem.

also about international law.... the guys with the biggest guns are the ones who make the law. the UN is worthless. and everyone hates america, same as it's ever been, just more widely televised. the last thing this country (America) needs is more fuckin laws and more government telling us what we can and can't do.

everyone's so desensitized by what's on the news everyday that your average joe doesnt even care anymore, the world is in such a bad state it is hard to see it getting any better.

i don't understand how anybody is surprised or outraged by what the goings on in the world are these days, we're just bombarded with violence , hate , racism and power hungry politicians day in and day out.

How do you think this can be stopped? by electing another power hungry politican? by bombing another country? by killing a jew? this world is just so fucked up it's beyond help.

THC

 

[Guest]

I know this may not be PC, but where were that Americans rights when those hooded cowards cut his throat?

I'm sure he would have rather had humiliating nude pictures taken of him instead of having his head removed with a fuk'in ginsu knife.

I realize I'm a bit angry, but I still feel we should have left those animals over there to kill themselves. Bush should have never got us involved.

Those islamic fundamentalist are ruthless killers

 

[HellBoy]

..well now mybeans, looks like I touched a nerve! LOL!

...hmmm... where should I start.... ??? ....

Well, I guess I'll start with all of the baseless accusations you were making about ME... did I say rape or sexual humiliation was "ok"??? ...did I say it was ok to BEAT or SAW OFF HEADS??? ..no, I don't think so.

In fact, I don't think those items I mentioned as being "fair game" are even forbidden by the convention.. unless I'm wrong about that.. I have not actually looked up the "defined allowable" in that respect.
__________________

But, even that is beside the point: the Geneva convention does not apply, even in the most liberal interpretation. Consider this:

6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

I found it... interesting ... that this article was used to justify the guerilla actions of some of the Iraqi troublmakers. Just like the Bible, you get two entirely different interpretations of the SAME verse when you ask two different denomiations what it means...

I'm using the SAME article to debunk your claims... with a different interpretation, which is IMO, just as valid as yours.

provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war

I agree that the article applies perfectly to Iraq until you get to the final qualifier restated above. I don't think I need to even GO INTO parsing THAT qualifier to the Iraqi's guerilla activities... do I???

Therefore, HOIST... by your own pentard!

Now... since we have established that the Geneva convention does not LEGALLY apply; As civilized human beings, I think we can all agree that the convention's spirit and intent DOES APPLY to any and ALL prisoners.. including domestic prisoners jailed for domestic crimes.

And don't talk to me about "mental scarring" ...I got popped and it cost me tens of thousands of dollars, my job, my reputation, and worst of all..MY FAMILY.. all for growing a fking PLANT!!! You don't think THAT scarred ME for life???

Please..... theres a WAR going on over there and ppl are dying by the DOZENS every day...

All I have to say is:

If wiring up Akbar's nuts to the light socket will prevent the deaths of INNOCENT ppl OR US soldiers...then I have just two things to say about that: The red wire is positive. The black wire is negative.

(hehehe...not really..nut shocking is RIGHT OUT too!! CERTAINLY NO NUT SHOCKING...jeeze, I might be a prisoner someday! )

..but you get my point, I'm sure.

later,

HellBoy

 

[mybeans420]

ken, my response

ken, my response

Ken,
International law does in fact apply to the United States. what you may be thinking of is Bushs May 6 2002 withdrawal from the International Criminal Court (ICC) Rome Statute treaty.
This in no way exempts the US from international law. it merely makes a matter of record the bush administration strong objection and opposition to the ICC.

The ICC is a permanent international tribunal that will try individuals responsible for the most serious international crimes. One hundred and sixty countries attended a U.N.-sponsored conference in Rome in 1998 to draft a treaty for the establishment of the ICC. After 5 weeks of intense negotiations, 120 countries voted to adopt the treaty. Before the Court could be set up, 60 countries needed to ratify the treaty. 139 states signed the treaty by the December 31 2000 deadline. To date, 94 countries have ratified it. The tribunal came into force on July 1 2003.

The United States of America was one of only 7 nations (joining China, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, Qatar and Israel) to vote against the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court in 1998. Former president Clinton signed the treaty in 1999.
The Bush administation campaign to undermine the efforts of the international community began as soon as he took office in 2001.

The administration's hostility to the ICC increased dramatically in 2002. The crux of the U.S. concern relates to the prospect that the ICC may exercise its jurisdiction to conduct politically motivated investigations and prosecutions of U.S. military and political officials and personnel. When in fact,The treaty gives the ICC jurisdiction that is complementary to national jurisdictions. This 'principle of complementarity', as it is known, gives states the primary responsibility and duty to prosecute the most serious international crimes, while allowing the ICC to step in only as a last resort if the states fail to implement their duty -- that is, only if investigations and, if appropriate, prosecutions are not carried out in good faith. Bona fide efforts to discover the truth and to hold accountable those responsible for any acts of genocide, crimes against humanity, or war crimes will bar the ICC from proceeding.
At a press conference , U.S. Secretary of Defense William Cohen, while opposing the ICC, admitted that the Court's limited authority would protect US troops and officials: "We have demonstrated over the years wherever there is an allegation of abuse on the part of a soldier we have a judicial system that will deal with it very effectively," Cohen said. "As long as we have a respected judicial system then there should be some insulation factor." That is, the ICC would then be barred from proceedings against Americans.
The U.S. opposition to the ICC is in stark contrast to the strong support for the Court by most of America's closest allies.

In an unprecedented diplomatic maneuver on May 6 2002, the Bush administration effectively withdrew the U.S. signature on the treaty. At the time, the Ambassador-at-large for War Crimes Issues Pierre-Richard Prosper stated that the administration was "not going to war" with the Court. This has proved false; the renunciation of the treaty has paved the way for a comprehensive U.S. campaign to undermine the ICC.

First, the Bush administration negotiated a Security Council resolution to provide an exemption for U.S. personnel operating in U.N. peacekeeping operations. The administration failed in May 2002 to obtain an exemption for peacekeepers in East Timor. In June 2002 the Bush administration vetoed an extension of the UN peacekeeping mission for Bosnia-Herzegovina unless the Security Council granted a complete exemption. Ultimately, the U.S. failed in its bid for an iron-clad exemption, although the Security Council approved a limited, one year exemption for U.S. personnel participating in UN peacekeeping missions or UN authorized operations.

Second, the Bush administration is requesting states around the world to approve bilateral agreements requiring them not to surrender American nationals to the ICC. The goal of these agreements ("impunity agreements" or so-called "Article 98 agreements") is to exempt U.S. nationals from ICC jurisdiction. They also lead to a two-tiered rule of law for the most serious international crimes: one that applies to U.S. nationals; another that applies to the rest of the world's citizens.

Thirdly, the U.S Congress has assisted the Bush administration's effort to obtain bilateral impunity agreements. The Congress passed the American Servicemembers' Protection Act (ASPA), which was signed into law by President Bush on August 3 2002. The major anti-ICC provisions in ASPA are:

a prohibition on U.S. cooperation with the ICC;

an "invasion of the Hague" provision: authorizing the President to "use all means necessary and appropriate" to free U.S. personnel (and certain allied personnel) detained or imprisoned by the ICC;

punishment for States that join the ICC treaty: refusing military aid to States' Parties to the treaty (except major U.S. allies);

a prohibition on U.S. participation in peacekeeping activities unless immunity from the ICC is guaranteed for U.S. personnel.

However, all of these provisions are off-set by waiver provisions that allow the president to override the effects of ASPA when "in the national interest". The waiver provisions effectively render ASPA meaningless.

Remember just because we don't like a law doesn't mean it can't applied against us. If there's one thing the drug war has taught us, that's it.

 

[mybeans420]

Hellboy my resonse........

Hellboy my resonse........

yeah, you kinda did touch a nerve, lol
but i meant you no disrepect. i merely instead, just vigorously disagree with you on some points. on most of the points you made i totally agreed with you. such as the need to change the attitude of the soldiers. which would imply that you at least agree that what happened was indeed a crime.

it was when you referred to those guilty of these abuses as "scapegoats" ((they are criminals, and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law along with any official in a position to have knowledge of the policies that allowed this to happen)) and your comment to the fact that anything goes short of beatings.

we are signatories of the geneva convention and as such must adhere to the mandate thereof. regardless of whether or not our enemies do. the items you listed as fair game are in fact violations of the geneva convention.
the geneva convention affords prisoners what would equate to our right to remain silent. (NOTE ARTICLE 17 ABOVE)

i was just pointing out that some of the practices you were seeming to condone were illegal under international law. sure i agree with you pantyhose and a collar dont constitute torture. but there was so much more than that happening. and your post, to me at least, seemed to marginalize that .

and my last question was genuine as i'm still not sure who you were referring to. iraqi, or american prisoners?

granted i admit that my post was a bit harsh and i'm sorry if i offended you. i'm very passionate about the rule of law. and as i stated in a post to sharp pain, we must be bound by the same laws we are professing to protect.

with regard to the geneva convention not applying, if you read a little further to article five you'll see that the geneva convention does in fact apply in this instance.

Article 5
The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.
***************(NOTE)*****************
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, ***having committed a belligerent act*** and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
***************************************

This provision of article 5 would apply to the iraqi detainees.

my heart truly goes out to you for the suffering you had to endure at the hands of the drug war inquisitioners.
so you obviously know the pain of mental anguish over unjust treatment. the violation of your dignity through injustice. would you wish that on another?

 

[mybeans420]

sharp pain

sharp pain

There's nothing politically incorrect about your question sharp pain.
it's a very valid one in fact, and your anger is natural, i'm angry as hell.
i don't disagree that it was a barbaric display and a crime against humanity, also punishable under international law.
all i'm saying is that it's no excuse to FLOUT international law.
the very same thing that our own president in his own words condemned hussein for.
if we are to have any credibility in the international community we must be bound by the same laws we are professing to protect.
we also have to remember that this act was a reprisal for the abuse of iraqi prisoners of war.
i can't help but wonder if nick berg would still be alive now had the policy of this administration not allowed these abuses to occur.

those are just my thoughts on the subject, though

i've always been of the opinion that if there's ever going to be any kind of peace then the force of law must overcome the law of force.

 

[mybeans420]

thceser

thceser

for the first part of your post read my reply to sharp pain if you haven't already..

with regard to your opinions on the un. i feel that the reason the un has been so ineffective is our continued undermineing of the international community, and the processes of the UN such as our going it alone approach in iraq.
I outlined an examle involving the international criminal court in another reply. another example would be the kyoto protocal,

the reason that everyone hates us is because they see us as an aggressive hypocritical rogue nation that wants international law to apply to everyone but ourselves. if the elected representatives of this nation fail to respect international law then it refects on the citizenry and we are viewed as being just as guilty as them.
hence my previous comment referring to innocents in this country.

it's up to us as citizens to repudiate the actions of our government by demanding reform of the foreign policy that this administration has put us aty odds with the rest of the world, not just iraq, iran, and north korea.

we're treading down a dangerous path here. the consequenses of which could be dire for our nation.

 

[rasputen]

Once again,

The purpose of this thread was to discuss the IDEA of using the Prisoner Abuse to get attention/help for the Prisoners Of the WOD.

Anyone have any comments about that subject?

 

[BushyOldGrower]

Injustice and disgrace for America...

Injustice and disgrace for America...

One person mentioned on a talk show that Nick Berg appeared to be at the same prison as the atrocities by American troops were at. Is this plausable?

Anyways assuming savage assholes did cut his head off and not Bush lackeys I see this prisoner thing as a huge debacle for American Prestige and leadership. We no have no moral authority as if we ever did?

LOL, we are the ones the world has to stop. We are the ones shoving the new world order down everyones throats. This is much like the way we ridicule and imprison even innocent potsmokers in America. We live in a police state now.

So why are you surprised at what loyal Bush republican say now. They say what about the bad shit the enemy has done as if that excuses sexual perversions and torture.

As if that justifies this war on the Iraqi people whom we wish only to humiliate like every other arab. This isnt the true america I came to know. I see the neo cons as out of control and getting nastier every day. They want to justify abuse, torture and sexual abuse. Even out and out cold blooded murder of many in the interrogations and now they try to cover up who planned this shit.

Bush and Rummy and all their neo con friends are a lot like the cabinet another asshole once had IMHO and I am proud to say I always openly opposed these neo cons. I am for human rights and the democratic ideals we were all taught to believe in.

When you have a war is the time when you need international geneva type conventions. Bush is a war criminal for sure and Americans are responsible even though Bush stole the election by subverting the democratic process. Don't let this man cheat us all for another 4 years. America needs a change of leadership as does the world. BOG

 

[ZagNut]

It's Election time!

It's Election time!

You can tell when its election time here in america because all the real "important" issues come out. I mean, why is there so much focus on this prisoner thing now when other scenarios far worse than this have been carried out over the years.

The only reason the prisoner 'dilema' is in our face right now is because we don't 'see' whats happening all over the world. we only see what they want us to see, and its been like that ever since the vietnam war.

i'm certian that there are far worse things happening all over the world that a few naked people in a pile.


P.S this is my first post on this board, so hello to everyone.

 

[mybeans420]

hello zagnut

hello zagnut

welcome aboard,
you're absolutely right that this prisoner scandal is only the tip of the iceburg with regard to the atrocities that have been commited by this administration. if you dig around you might find other examples being discussed in other threads. i don't know if theres a thread on this but the undermining of the democratic process in Haiti comes to mind. Here is an example of a duly elected head of state not guilty of any crime whatsoever, being oustered, with the aid of the bush administration, by militant rebel guerillas. kidnapped in the middle of the night by US special forces and flown to a remote location in africa. and this administration declares to love freedom, HA!
THE ONLY FREEDOM THEY ENJOY IS THE FREEDOM TO INFLICT SUFFERING ON OTHERS!!!

 

[rasputen]

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. troops and Iraqi police raided the home and party offices of Governing Council member Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday, taking computers and private files from the man once considered Washington's top Iraq ally.

This part is chilling....sound famaliar???

"I was asleep, I opened the door and police came into my home carrying pistols," a clearly furious Chalabi told reporters. "They went through the rooms and I told them to get out, but they said they were slaves under orders."

"Let my people go. Let my people be free. It is time for the Iraqi people to run their affairs," said Chalabi. .

"In the past few months, Chalabi has repeatedly crossed swords with U.S. authorities in Washington and Baghdad. On trips to the United States he has criticized U.S. policy in Iraq, seemingly in an effort to shore up support at home."

Sounds like the WOD to me.

 

[mybeans420]

more bad news.............

more bad news.............

CIA investigates death of three detainees
Thursday, May 20, 2004 Posted: 9:00 PM EDT (0100 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The CIA is investigating three cases of prisoner deaths during interrogations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In one of the cases, two pictures surfaced Wednesday that appear to show U.S. soldiers gloating over a corpse.

Spc. Charles Graner of the 372nd Military Police is seen smiling, giving the thumbs up in one picture. In the other, Spc. Sabrina Harmon, a member of the same unit, is in a similar pose.

The soldiers who appear in them are among those already facing charges in the abuse scandal. The pictures came out following the first court-martial in connection with the abuse.

U.S. officials identified the corpse, which was packed in ice, as Manadel al-Jamadi.

He had suffered head wounds during a struggle with Navy SEALs at the time of his arrest, sources said, and died after CIA interrogations.

Both the Defense Department and the CIA's inspector general are investigating whether there was wrongdoing and if so by whom, U.S. officials said.

The agency's inspector general is investigating two other cases.

One case involves an independent contractor for the CIA who was interrogating a prisoner in Afghanistan when the man died, knowledgeable sources have said.

The other involves an Iraqi major general arrested in western Iraq who died several days after being interrogated by CIA personnel. Sources have said they do not expect any agency involvement in the death to be found.

Meanwhile, the chief of U.S. forces in the Middle East told a Senate panel Wednesday there was no pattern of prisoner abuse by American troops. But Gen. John Abizaid said preliminary findings by the Army's inspector general cite problems in training and organization and recommend "very specific changes."

"I specifically asked the [inspector general] of the Army, did he believe that there was a pattern of abuse of prisoners in the Central Command area of operation?" Abizaid testified. "And he looked at both Afghanistan and Iraq, and he said no."

Pentagon investigators have found a new disc of images documenting the abuse of inmates at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, Sen. John Warner, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, announced during the hearing. He said he would advise later when the images could be viewed.

Abizaid and Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the commander of American and coalition troops in Iraq, were the main witnesses at the hearing. Also testifying was Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the officer in charge of prison operations there.

Sanchez said he put the prison under the command of a military intelligence brigade in November to improve the facility's defenses after a series of mortar attacks in late 2003.

But he said responsibility for running the prison remained under a military police brigade. He warned senators that "this awful episode at Abu Ghraib must not allow us to get distracted" from the war against insurgents in Iraq.

"The honor and value systems of our armed forces are solid and the bedrock of what makes us the best in the world," Sanchez said. "There has been no catastrophic failure, and America's armed forces will never compromise their honor."

He denied a published report that he approved the use of sleep deprivation, excessive noise and intimidation in one case, saying, "I never approved the use of any of those measures ... in the 12 and a half months that I've been in Iraq."

Photographs of U.S. troops mistreating naked, hooded prisoners at Abu Ghraib, near Baghdad, surfaced in April.

The Army has been investigating the abuses since January. Seven soldiers -- all members of an Army reserve military police company -- have been charged in the case, and six officers have received career-ending reprimands.

One soldier, Spc. Jeremy Sivits, pleaded guilty in a court-martial held Wednesday in Baghdad and was sentenced to a year's confinement.

Other Developments:

FBI Director Robert Mueller told Congress Thursday his agents are not investigating possible abuse of prisoners in Iraq by civilians. In an appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mueller testified that the CIA has referred some cases to the Justice Department, but the FBI has not yet been asked to investigate. Mueller said that if any U.S. contractors are to be prosecuted the FBI should conduct the investigations. He said officials of the Justice and Defense departments are continuing to discuss key issues of jurisdiction

 

[Euripides Eumenides]

Hey ZagNut, welcome to the show.

 

[HellBoy]

hey there Zagnut... I've got a LOT to wade through before replying... I just wanted to say hello and welcome to ICMag... you're in the right spot!

HB

 

[HellBoy]

Ok.. I have a lot to cover so I guess I'll take it point by point. Here goes!

mybeans420:

it was when you referred to those guilty of these abuses as "scapegoats" ((they are criminals, and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law

I couldn't agree more. I think you misunderstood what I meant by scapegoats.... which is THEY are made to look like it was ALL their idea...and NOBODY above them knew a damn thing... pardon my french, but "bullshit"! I WAS a soldier and I can tell you for sure, THOSE soldiers were doing what they were doing because they had NO FEAR of being prosecuted...NOT because they personally thought it was ok, but because they believed it was institutionally sanctioned.

I'm NOT saying they would NOT have done that without orders... I'm just saying they would have done it MUCH more privately if they were doing wrong (in a military sense, not a moral sense) and they KNEW it.

So, regardless of their personal responsibility (which cannot be ignored), I believe that they thought they had NO MILITARY responsibility at all....

Therefore, someone above WAS in charge and if he skates away, then YES the GI's ARE SCAPEGOATS.

..that's my story on that, and I'm stickin with it!
_______________________________

we are signatories of the geneva convention and as such must adhere to the mandate thereof. regardless of whether or not our enemies do.

I challenge that statement for the time being. I'm going to have to look that up and read it. As we have seen before, these things can be interpreted in a number of ways and I will have to see before I agree with you on that.
________________________________

Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, ***having committed a belligerent act***

..case in point. What exactly is "doubt"? ..can you put a qualifier on that which covers all situations and all enemy configurations? Admittedly, there is ALWAYS doubt unless multiple witness put the finger on him... so how do you get the location of the next roadside bomb??? Maybe the military felt they were WITHIN the guidelines (..remember, interpretation rights belong to the READER...not the author...).
________________________________

the violation of your dignity through injustice. would you wish that on another?

..well..no, not really. And I concede that many, if not most of the detainees were totally innocent of wrong-doing; which of course makes it MUCH MORE unacceptable. However, if PROPER IDENTIFICATION is established, and it is clear you have a militant combatant...like I said, I'm in favor of ANYTHING short of physical abuse..meaning leaving marks and bruises. Mental torture.. fuck em.. you don't think that Israeli father that had his wife and 4 little girls murdered by Palestinian terrorists has "mental torture"????? They actually executed all 4 girls at close range while they sat in their seats... the mother was killed in the initial burst and the car went onto the side of the road... the terrorist walked up to the car and murdered 4 little girls ages ranging from 11 down to 8 months... oh yeah, the mother was PREGNANT late term as well....

..don't talk to me about "mental torture" on a murdering terrorist. They DESERVE it!
___________________________________

i can't help but wonder if nick berg would still be alive now had the policy of this administration not allowed these abuses to occur.

..we can agree on that one. My thoughts exactly.
___________________________________

the reason that everyone hates us is because they see us as an aggressive hypocritical rogue nation that wants international law to apply to everyone but ourselves.

..no thats not the reason. The REASON is that we fund more than half the money they waste on all their junkets and visits and buddy-buddy glad handing. And just like rebellious teenagers that are at college, they CAN'T really reject us because we are PAYING for their little asses... it must make them VERY angry! Then we POPPED their crooked asses along with the French and the Russians STEALING IRAQI OIL..and ALL THREE of those sorry outfits pointed the finger at the US and screamed "War for Oil!" Fact is, we have not recieved one drop of Iraqi oil other than that we PAID FOR at current prices...nor will we EVER recieve any unless we pay!

The UN is a collection of some of the Worlds most notrorious crooks, dictators, and despots...they've been caught red-handed and we busted their asses... of course they hate us... but they can't say what the REAL reason is so they make up a bunch of noble sounding bullshit to spew at the public... always worked in the past..no reason not to keep it up.

The UN is a CROOK hangout, and if I was the Pres. they would be CUT-OFF and kicked the fuk OUT of OUR building that we bought, built, and PAID FOR.... Then they could go start their little den of theives wherever they please, EXCEPT on US soil.
_______________________________________

BOG:

I see the neo cons as out of control and getting nastier every day. They want to justify abuse, torture and sexual abuse.

Like who? Name ONE person you have seen that said sexual abuse was ok...just ONE.
And the terms "abuse" and "torture" are VERY open to interpretation. Where is the "line"... can you define it?? ..especially, can you define the "line" the miltary personel were expected to follow? ..not by "convention" but by DIRECT INSTRUCTIONS FROM A SUPERIOR???

..no, I doubt it. That is EXACTLY why a bunch of pissed off senators are investigating. They want to know what the military "line" really was.

When you have a war is the time when you need international geneva type conventions. Bush is a war criminal for sure

..pure speculation. Again, that is why there is an investigation to start with. Are you just going to pronounce the defendant guilty without even a hearing. Yes, that's good Democratic principles we were all taught to believe in, alright.
_________________________________________

ZagNut:

The only reason the prisoner 'dilema' is in our face right now is because we don't 'see' whats happening all over the world. we only see what they want us to see, and its been like that ever since the vietnam war.

You are absolutely correct on that Zag... the MEDIA of the US is the greatest propaganda machine the world has ever seen..bar NONE! It has to do with the numbers of eyes and ears they have... by FAR more than anyone ever has had before.

Why do you suppose the news from Iraq is ALWAYS spun as negative as possible?? Why do you suppose we NEVER get to see the HUNDREDS of new schools with new furniture and supplies, full of happy children that WE BUILT.. much of it by the FIGHTING GI!!!

...why is that? I'll tell you the REAL reason. It's because the American media (with the exception of FOX, somewhat..) ..is SOLIDLY against Bushco. You think they appreciate recent govt. efforts to rein in their "filth" content on publicly aired TV???

It's NEVER really about the war...every group has a hidden agenda and they try to justify it with bullshit.
__________________________________________

..one final thought, mybeans:

Before pronouning judgement on the deaths; obviously the investigation has to go forward. I am giving the benefit of the doubt (which is what ANY defendant gets in court) to the GI's for now because of the fact that many of the prisoners taken were wounded. It must be established for sure, the actual cause of death... full field autopsy is in order....
__________________________________________

I'm all FOR nailing the crap out of the perpetrators... regardless of what they were told to do; you have the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to refuse any order that you believe to be illegal. Certainly, in NO STRETCH of the imagination, NO ONE could ever believe that sexual humiliation was ok... beating was ok... electricution was ok... THEY KNEW better... they SHOULD HAVE REFUSED!

..however, you must consider, in the military you are either a "playa" or soon to be gone. The peer pressure to conform is UNBELIEVABLE... FRIGHTENING in fact... I know; I was in. I turned quickly into a "soon to be gone" and got out after my initial enlistment...never was an "inside man"...

That being said... whoever issued the orders are MORE than half responsible. It would be a tragic miscarriage of justice if only the GI's pay.....

Thanks everyone for the though provoking comments... as American citizens we have a DUTY to be interested and informed as to what our goverment is really up to. If we become complacent and trusting, we WILL become slaves.

peace,

 

[closetking]

Ask Jessica Lynch which method of torture she liked best. Bones being broken, gang raped and sodomized for a few hours. Think they wanted intellegence from her?
As far as I'm concerned, the Iraqi's disqualified themselves from any consideration from the Geneva Convention.
Ask John McCain if he felt he was treated humanely in the Hanoi Hilton. In an interview today he said this was predictable, I wonder how he knew that. Experiance, I would think.

Wether we should be there or not is no longer the issue, our troops are getting killed by gurella warfare, anyone have any nice ways of gathering up to date intellegence in this type of action?

I would have shoved cattle prods up thier asses and beat them with rubber hoses filled with sand. But I also know intellegence gathered under that kind of duress is useless. Read "1984" and see how Winston Smith was broken, and you'll understand which method is more effective.

The Arabs have been torturing there own people for years and we have been doing the same. Today we are outraged, tommorow will be some other issue.

I will be kind in war until the other guy warrants unkindness? We need to quit trying to sanitize war with "precision" bombs, and "rules" of engagement. Nothing nice happens in war.

Our govt expects people we train to kill others to be diplomats. That is totally stupid. This whole Iraq situation is FUBAR because of an Asshole president and his butthole buddies.

 

[ZagNut]

...why is that? I'll tell you the REAL reason. It's because the American media (with the exception of FOX, somewhat..) ..is SOLIDLY against Bushco. You think they appreciate recent govt. efforts to rein in their "filth" content on publicly aired TV???

There is definetly an agenda there, thats for sure. Although i don't think FOX is an exception, they are told what they can and cannot show as far as war footage. The 'Anybody but bush' people in the media and everywhere else are crazy too... That kind of attitude is very bad when electing a world leader.

I had been a bush supporter for a long time, but the more and more i get to know his policies and leadership style, the more I see myself not voting for him. but Kerry is not a sufficent alternative, so...

I believe our country is on a very bad course, and its pretty far along. The fear is in place in the american people, and we all want the government to protect us from their own creations. crazy stuff.