"Male hermies arent bad"

[LG/]

Another thing to look out for is those hermies that won't produce viable pollen. I lost a clone that way, I thought I had successfully turned a female into a male, however the pollen turned out to be sterile and got duds instead of viable seeds. None sprouted. The female by then could not be reveged. So, make sure those male flowers produce fertile pollen before using them in your breeding projects. Again, the pictures are really good, but we souls be able to observe the whole development to draw realistic conclusions. What do you want to do with this strain? Because using hermies to save it, means down the line you will have to put some active work in removing hermies if they're an unwanted trait.

So you got seeds but they wouldn't pop? I've never heard of this. Made nonviable seeds. Hmm. Interesting!
On a separate project I have a strain dropping pollen but idk if it's pollinating (nonviable?). I haven't seen the tell tale signs on the females. So I'll wait and see.


For this project (pics above) I'm trying to get a specific flavor. The stem rub was spot on.
What I'll do is hedge my bets. I have another strain that I'll use a male also and ill observe the intersex male and see how it does from clone. If I feel I have to remove the intersex, I'll just move forward with the other strain as a male. Just depends how funky the intersex one looks.
Sorry for leaving the strain name out. Like I said I don't want to call out the breeder who is a good person and active on here.

 

[Normannen]

So you got seeds but they wouldn't pop? I've never heard of this. Made nonviable seeds. Hmm. Interesting!
On a separate project I have a strain dropping pollen but idk if it's pollinating (nonviable?). I haven't seen the tell tale signs on the females. So I'll wait and see.


For this project (pics above) I'm trying to get a specific flavor. The stem rub was spot on.
What I'll do is hedge my bets. I have another strain that I'll use a male also and ill observe the intersex male and see how it does from clone. If I feel I have to remove the intersex, I'll just move forward with the other strain as a male. Just depends how funky the intersex one looks.
Sorry for leaving the strain name out. Like I said I don't want to call out the breeder who is a good person and active on here.

Don't worry about strain name, it's how it goes from here. It's an interesting project, I hope you sucseed at getting that stem rub into a stable line

 

[numberguy]

Update one female one male sex is stable so far, they are growing good, the stems are large and hollow which they should not be. The one on the left is female the right one is male and stem of each respectively.

The male was culled before any flowers could open, so not sure if he would have shown female flowers later. Quality of the male was not as good as his daddy. The female was allowed to flower unhindered, again quality was lacking and buds never filled out good. Never saw any male flowers on the female and she contains no seeds and neither do the other females she was with. I will not be growing any more seeds from males that produce seeds, if I had no other seeds I would not hesitate to use them tho, nothing bad happened but the quality was just not there.

 

[acespicoli]

Some lines herm inside and outside they will not herm, but do you know why ?

 

[igrowone]

Some lines herm inside and outside they will not herm, but do you know why ?

outdoor plant lines are commonly known to throw roosters inside
now take such an outdoor plant, good sized beast of a couple pounds
how close is it checked over? perhaps it has a seed here or there but no one is checking that closely
the classification of hermie may be a little different between inside and outside
one's big and hairy so to speak, the other prim and proper with closer checks done

 

[acespicoli]

one's big and hairy so to speak,

I liked that

Yeah theres all kinds of reasons plants herm inside most of the time its grower error, environmental stress
root bound plant, nute stress, light leaks, premature flowering ...
people growing plants in one quart containers blaming the plant...
Timers on the fritz not working properly
tents not sealed off properly

really depends on the plant genetics as well.... natural dwarfs make better indoor plants
Thats most likely why many people also cull any rouge plants they want a stable indoor line...for sensi
The plant naturally is supposed to make seed ? Sensi was never part of natures plan...

Many old breeders will tell you of there favorite IBL lines later... I wish I didnt cull so much
Because you lose important genetic traits and it makes the line depressed and tired in the end
Recessive traits wont be seen in every plant in every generation
always save a backup set of seeds from open pollination

Theres also a aspect to isolating and selfing "herm seed" that creates unique phenotypes on out crosses
Similar to the action of crop/weed complexes, but what do we know? We just guessing...?

ecological succession = multi phenotypes and different stains and branches in the phylo tree
but if all that interest you is seedless bud today cull away
different choices for different needs


>>>Best>ibes

Speciation

Speciation is how a new kind of plant or animal species is created. Speciation occurs when a group within a species separates from other members of its species and develops its own unique characteristics.

education.nationalgeographic.org

when we separate and cull etc what are we creating ?

As breeders what should we guard against ?
Inbreeding depression is the reduced biological fitness which has the potential to result from inbreeding (the breeding of related individuals). Biological fitness refers to an organism's ability to survive and perpetuate its genetic material. Inbreeding depression is often the result of a population bottleneck. In general, the higher the genetic variation or gene pool within a breeding population, the less likely it is to suffer from inbreeding depression, though inbreeding and outbreeding depression can simultaneously occur.

Inbreeding depression seems to be present in most groups of organisms, but varies across mating systems. Hermaphroditic species often exhibit lower degrees of inbreeding depression than outcrossing species, as repeated generations of selfing is thought to purge deleterious alleles from populations. For example, the outcrossing nematode (roundworm) Caenorhabditis remanei has been demonstrated to suffer severely from inbreeding depression, unlike its hermaphroditic relative C. elegans, which experiences outbreeding depression.[2

Inbreeding depression - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So in a "pure" IBL line are herms good ?
Are they as good in a hybrid line ?
Is the thc gene maintained thru a high level of inbreeding for that trait ?

 

[numberguy]

So in a "pure" IBL line are herms good ?
Are they as good in a hybrid line ?
Is the thc gene maintained thru a high level of inbreeding for that trait ?

Are you asking or just musing? Herms in a pure? IBL depends on the definition of pure. In an IBL line of male, female, plants herms are not good, makes it hard to maintain the integrity of the line and makes outcrossing very hard to accomplish properly. If its a pure IBL resulting from multiple generations of herms then it is the only way to maintain the variety. There is really is no such thing as a hybrid line, a hybrid is made from two unrelated lines or lines that have been isolated by time and generations. Yes the THC genes are maintained and improved by only breeding for that trait, to use any other trait to breed risks degradation of potency or good THC. This is happening as we watch by way of breeding for other traits, bag appeal, taste, smoothness, color, high THC numbers instead of real world potency, ect, ect.

 

[acespicoli]

Are you asking or just musing?In an IBL line of male, female, plants herms are not good, makes it hard to maintain the integrity of the line and makes outcrossing very hard to accomplish properly.

Questions require answers, seems you've found yours.
Different goals require different genes
I would encourage you if possible to rouge them out of your f1 f2 and keep them in your p lines
Would back up my p lines as op every 10 years and refrigerate or bury deep in metal and or glass

the problem of going past f1 ?

may have lost that fizz you found in hybrid vigor and your genetics have drifted toward dominant genes?
Which genes are recessive and which are dominant ?

by LG Campbell · 2020 · Cited by 7 — Concentration of THC is a polygenic trait (three to four genetic factors). Both additive and dominance CGEs best explained THC expression ...

According to NCBI’s Conserved Domain Database, the GAG pre-integrase domain (pfam13976) is associated with retroviral insertion elements. In addition, the placement of these domains is characteristic of the Copia Superfamily of LTR retrotransposons (Wicker et al., 2007). Therefore, the presence of Copia-like retrotransposons within the C. sativa genome is confirmed, but their functions or association with the expression of male or female phenotype remains to be determined.

Our results suggest that variation in cannabinoid expression was not previously fully described. We hypothesize that nonadditive genetic effects play prominent roles in cannabinoid genetics. A formal test of integration, whether phenotypic,48 genetic,49,50 or developmental,51 would make significant advances in our understanding of cannabinoid inheritance. Thus, new crosses that map loci relative to psychoactive chemicals and pathways in the F1 and F2 generations of diverse chemotypes52 will complement ongoing efforts to characterize the genome of this plant.53,54

thcv cbc ?

what if were missing plants? diverse ones ?

How ancient viruses got cannabis high

THC and CBD, bioactive substances produced by cannabis and sought by medical patients and recreational users, sprung to life thanks to ancient colonization of the plant's genome by viruses, researchers have found.

www.sciencedaily.com

Frontiers | Hermaphroditism in Marijuana (Cannabis sativa L.) Inflorescences – Impact on Floral Morphology, Seed Formation, Progeny Sex Ratios, and Genetic Variation

Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-cros...

www.frontiersin.org

Cannabinoid Inheritance Relies on Complex Genetic Architecture

Introduction: Understanding the inheritance of cannabinoid compounds in Cannabis sativa will facilitate effective crop breeding and careful regulation of controlled substances. The production of two key cannabinoids, Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How Ancient Viruses Got Cannabis High

temertymedicine.utoronto.ca

Maybe we not use the sativa thai due to the high occurrence of hermaphrodite flower?
Even though we narrow it down it may be impossible to completely remove it from the strain?
Do we trash the line ?

The History of the Thai Stick

Artisan Canna Cigars was created by my partner Nathan and myself, only after acknowledging how much we could accomplish by working together within this amazing way of life. It developed into something much greater than we could've anticipated or imagined. A year and over 50 collaborations later...

hightimes.com

what percentage of hermaphrodite plants is acceptable 0% ?
what % of haze plants are exceptional ?
why?

why are some of these old lines considered tired ?
why are the herm prone chem lines popular ?
why is the herm OG offspring popular ?
why are all of your fem seed chem induced herms ?
I muse... enquiring minds need answers... why ask why ?

why - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

if I tell you my reason why to keep it that will not answer your question, should you keep it?

A perfect flower is one that has both male and female parts. An imperfect flower is one that only has male or female parts. A complete flower contains sepals, petals, pistils, and stamens.

sexual polymorphism been studied ?
missing parts for sensi, I get that... seedless plants contain more terpenes and thc and smokeable flower

can males and females later be separated from perfect flowers ?

The categories are (1) dioecy, in which individuals bear only male or only female flowers throughout their life spans; (2) monoecy, in which individual plants bear separate male (staminate) and female (pistillate) flowers; and (3) hermaphroditism or cosexuality, in which individual plants bear bisexual (perfect) ...

The evolution of dioecy (separate sexes) in plants is a two-way street: species can evolve dioecy from hermaphroditism and dioecy can evolve into hermaphroditism.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(09)00620-4.pdf

Gynodioecy is a rare breeding system that is found in certain flowering plant species in which female and hermaphroditic plants coexist within a population.

Androdioecy is a reproductive system characterized by the coexistence of males and hermaphrodites. Androdioecy is rare in comparison with the other major ...

Population genetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

John Pannell: Most plants are hermaphrodites. Common intuition is that hermaphrodites benefit from being able to self-fertilise, thus circumventing the need to find a mating partner. This has obvious advantages for sessile [non-mobile] organisms such as plants.Mar 12, 2009

How many of us have grown feminized plants ? Herm induced chemically fem seed ? Lets be honest ?
Does pollen from a herm plant pollen donor, produce mostly female seed, with the exception of a few males ?
Can males and females be both be sex reversed chemically ?

apologies for doing this, guess I overstated my position....
that being, wth do I know anyway? Or any of us for that matter
were all just guessing still... by saving everything we error on the side of caution
Best

 

[Normannen]

Questions require answers, seems you've found yours.
Different goals require different genes
I would encourage you if possible to rouge them out of your f1 f2 and keep them in your p lines
Would back up my p lines as op every 10 years and refrigerate or bury deep in metal and or glass

View attachment 18918411
the problem of going past f1 ?

may have lost that fizz you found in hybrid vigor and your genetics have drifted toward dominant genes?
Which genes are recessive and which are dominant ?

by LG Campbell · 2020 · Cited by 7 — Concentration of THC is a polygenic trait (three to four genetic factors). Both additive and dominance CGEs best explained THC expression ...
View attachment 18918421
View attachment 18918424




According to NCBI’s Conserved Domain Database, the GAG pre-integrase domain (pfam13976) is associated with retroviral insertion elements. In addition, the placement of these domains is characteristic of the Copia Superfamily of LTR retrotransposons (Wicker et al., 2007). Therefore, the presence of Copia-like retrotransposons within the C. sativa genome is confirmed, but their functions or association with the expression of male or female phenotype remains to be determined.

Our results suggest that variation in cannabinoid expression was not previously fully described. We hypothesize that nonadditive genetic effects play prominent roles in cannabinoid genetics. A formal test of integration, whether phenotypic,48 genetic,49,50 or developmental,51 would make significant advances in our understanding of cannabinoid inheritance. Thus, new crosses that map loci relative to psychoactive chemicals and pathways in the F1 and F2 generations of diverse chemotypes52 will complement ongoing efforts to characterize the genome of this plant.53,54
View attachment 18918420
thcv cbc ?

what if were missing plants? diverse ones ?

How ancient viruses got cannabis high

THC and CBD, bioactive substances produced by cannabis and sought by medical patients and recreational users, sprung to life thanks to ancient colonization of the plant's genome by viruses, researchers have found.

www.sciencedaily.com

Frontiers | Hermaphroditism in Marijuana (Cannabis sativa L.) Inflorescences – Impact on Floral Morphology, Seed Formation, Progeny Sex Ratios, and Genetic Variation

Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-cros...

www.frontiersin.org

Cannabinoid Inheritance Relies on Complex Genetic Architecture

Introduction: Understanding the inheritance of cannabinoid compounds in Cannabis sativa will facilitate effective crop breeding and careful regulation of controlled substances. The production of two key cannabinoids, Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

How Ancient Viruses Got Cannabis High

temertymedicine.utoronto.ca

Maybe we not use the sativa thai due to the high occurrence of hermaphrodite flower?
Even though we narrow it down it may be impossible to completely remove it from the strain?
Do we trash the line ?

The History of the Thai Stick

Artisan Canna Cigars was created by my partner Nathan and myself, only after acknowledging how much we could accomplish by working together within this amazing way of life. It developed into something much greater than we could've anticipated or imagined. A year and over 50 collaborations later...

hightimes.com

what percentage of hermaphrodite plants is acceptable 0% ?
what % of haze plants are exceptional ?
why?

why are some of these old lines considered tired ?
why are the herm prone chem lines popular ?
why is the herm OG offspring popular ?
why are all of your fem seed chem induced herms ?
I muse... enquiring minds need answers... why ask why ?

why - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

if I tell you my reason why to keep it that will not answer your question, should you keep it?
View attachment 18918430
A perfect flower is one that has both male and female parts. An imperfect flower is one that only has male or female parts. A complete flower contains sepals, petals, pistils, and stamens.
View attachment 18918432

sexual polymorphism been studied ?
missing parts for sensi, I get that... seedless plants contain more terpenes and thc and smokeable flower

View attachment 18918433
can males and females later be separated from perfect flowers ?

The categories are (1) dioecy, in which individuals bear only male or only female flowers throughout their life spans; (2) monoecy, in which individual plants bear separate male (staminate) and female (pistillate) flowers; and (3) hermaphroditism or cosexuality, in which individual plants bear bisexual (perfect) ...

The evolution of dioecy (separate sexes) in plants is a two-way street: species can evolve dioecy from hermaphroditism and dioecy can evolve into hermaphroditism.

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(09)00620-4.pdf

View attachment 18918441
Gynodioecy is a rare breeding system that is found in certain flowering plant species in which female and hermaphroditic plants coexist within a population.

Androdioecy is a reproductive system characterized by the coexistence of males and hermaphrodites. Androdioecy is rare in comparison with the other major ...

Population genetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

John Pannell: Most plants are hermaphrodites. Common intuition is that hermaphrodites benefit from being able to self-fertilise, thus circumventing the need to find a mating partner. This has obvious advantages for sessile [non-mobile] organisms such as plants.Mar 12, 2009

How many of us have grown feminized plants ? Herm induced chemically fem seed ? Lets be honest ?
Does pollen from a herm plant pollen donor, produce mostly female seed, with the exception of a few males ?
Can males and females be both be sex reversed chemically ?

Best combos in f2 still fizz less variation!

View attachment 18918452
apologies for doing this, guess I overstated my position....
that being, wth do I know anyway? Or any of us for that matter
were all just guessing still... by saving everything we error on the side of caution
Best

Lovely post, thank you for your contribution, i just have to say: add a potato at the end of it next time.

 

[Nannymouse]

Ok, i've only read the first half of this thread. Just wanted to ask if the sex genes of Cannabis are really x and y. The reason that i ask...for generations, the bird people talked x and y, as if every male female critter or plant or whatever, has an x and a y, just like people. No. As far as chickens and pigeons are concerned, their sex chromosomes are more of a W and Z shape. Those do seem to follow the x and y theories and facts, but that is not to say that all living things follow the same rules. At the time that i was following bird genetics, they had only recently discovered the differences, or maybe had just started studying bird genetics in depth. I even had questions about if the W and Z would always 'connect' in the same place, like the x and y do, or if the Z could fit that W in a couple of ways.

I also wanted to comment that some folks here, seem to think that the x and y are the only chromosomes that people have. It is just one of 23 pairs.

Others seem to think that there is 'more' genetic information with an xy than an xx. The y is smaller than the x, so there is less info with the xy. This is evident by observing sex-link traits.

And simple Mendel genetic graphs are misleading. Those blue eye and brown eye charts are not very accurate, there are many more genes that control eye color than just two.

And i've read some statements about 'all the x info always passed on from x to offspring'. Well, the x has a lot of info, not just the mitochondrial dna, which is a small(but important) part of the x.

It has been a couple of decades since my last cellular biology course, but i liked that way better than the inorganic chemistry. M probably way behind on the genetics findings.

 

[Normannen]

Ok, i've only read the first half of this thread. Just wanted to ask if the sex genes of Cannabis are really x and y. The reason that i ask...for generations, the bird people talked x and y, as if every male female critter or plant or whatever, has an x and a y, just like people. No. As far as chickens and pigeons are concerned, their sex chromosomes are more of a W and Z shape. Those do seem to follow the x and y theories and facts, but that is not to say that all living things follow the same rules. At the time that i was following bird genetics, they had only recently discovered the differences, or maybe had just started studying bird genetics in depth. I even had questions about if the W and Z would always 'connect' in the same place, like the x and y do, or if the Z could fit that W in a couple of ways.

I also wanted to comment that some folks here, seem to think that the x and y are the only chromosomes that people have. It is just one of 23 pairs.

Others seem to think that there is 'more' genetic information with an xy than an xx. The y is smaller than the x, so there is less info with the xy. This is evident by observing sex-link traits.

And simple Mendel genetic graphs are misleading. Those blue eye and brown eye charts are not very accurate, there are many more genes that control eye color than just two.

And i've read some statements about 'all the x info always passed on from x to offspring'. Well, the x has a lot of info, not just the mitochondrial dna, which is a small(but important) part of the x.

It has been a couple of decades since my last cellular biology course, but i liked that way better than the inorganic chemistry. M probably way behind on the genetics findings.

A dioecious plant, Cannabis sativa has two sex chromosomes (X and Y). The genome sizes of the diploid female and male plants were determined to be 1636 and 1683 Mbp, respectively, by flow cytometry. By the karyotype analysis, the X and Y chromosomes were found to be submetacentric and subtelocentric, respectively.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cytologia1929/63/4/63_4_459/_article from '98

 

[Normannen]

Hemp is a diploid species with 9 pairs of homomorphic autosomal chromosomes and a pair of heteromorphic sex chromosomes: X and Y (2n = 20) (Moliterni et al., 2004). The haploid genome size is 818 Mbp for female plants and 843 Mbp for male plants (van Bakel et al., 2011). Sex determination system in diecious hemp has been well studied. Male plants carry the heterogametic sex (XY) and female plants the homogametic one (XX). However, despite the presence of specific sex chromosomes, the phenotypic expression of sex in hemp shows some flexibility. Some diecious hemp plants produce flowers of the opposite sex than the one determined by their chromosomal composition (Moliterni et al., 2004). Monecious hemp plants carry the homogametic sex (XX) and the ratio of female to male flowers in a single monecious plant is highly variable (Faux et al., 2014). This variation ranges from monecious plants that have predominantly male flowers to predominantly female flowers (Faux et al., 2013, 2014, 2016). Diecious hemp species abundantly exist in nature, while monecious plants have been developed from some mutants that were selected during the domestication of the crop. Monecious accessions tend to show a wide range in sex ratios within the crop, including unisexual plants, and may gradually return to natural dioecy after a few generations (Bócsa and Karus, 1998; Amaducci et al., 2008a; Faux et al., 2013, 2014; Faux and Bertin, 2014). Constant strict selection of monecious plants is therefore needed to maintain monoecy during the seed multiplication (Moliterni et al., 2004). The instability of the sexual phenotype across generations, and the quantitative nature of expression of the sex suggests that sex expression is a rather polygenic trait (Faux et al., 2013, 2014; Faux and Bertin, 2014).

Frontiers | Genetic Architecture of Flowering Time and Sex Determination in Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.): A Genome-Wide Association Study

Flowering time and sex determination in hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) strongly influence fiber quality and seed production of this crop. The control of these tra...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[Nannymouse]

Thanks, i got some answers and some papers to follow.

Oh, if anyone has visuals of the hemp chromosomes, please slap them at me!

 

[Normannen]

Thanks, i got some answers and some papers to follow.

Oh, if anyone has visuals of the hemp chromosomes, please slap them at me!

 

[LG/]

What are people's thought on this?
i would appreciate all and any input.
Did I misinterpret these lower preflowers as Male?
That's sort of what I am leaning towards.
I clearly see the pistils on the tops. I thought the lowers looked like male parts. But the clone is now at the start of flower and its all female. I think I may have just failed in sex identification on this one...or it stabilized as a clone vs from seed. Or, as I read in a thread from OJD (I think) about fem seeds(although these were regs), maybe it just had some male preflowers but was female.

 

[Normannen]

that is indeed a male preflower, you can remove it with your thumb, unless you hope it would yield viable pollen, which is a hit or miss when they are rogue like this (at least one hopes they areif they want some good sinsemilla).

 

[Fuel]

Just to add the hint of realism. Just cull on sight. It's not because you wrap your shit with pseudo-science that it make smell or taste good. Or maybe to feel less raped when you buy fems by kilogrammers, monsanto style ? Stoners have so much changed over the past two decades lol

 

[grod31]

Hey all I just popped 100 beans that were pollinated by a male that turned female after4-5 weeks.
Im super interested to see what my results are

 

[Normannen]

Hey all I just popped 100 beans that were pollinated by a male that turned female after4-5 weeks.
Im super interested to see what my results are

do you have a grow diary?

 

[grod31]

I can write one ina bit if you think its interesting.