Yellowing and spotting, DWC hydro

[blueberryfarmer]

Hi everyone.. thanks for all the help in the past and thanks i hope for the help i request now! My plants have been doing great until now.

I just noticed some spotting and yellowing on the middle and lower leaves of one of two plants in a DWC setup. They're from seed, supposedly 'Blueberry' from a breeder called 'Grower's Choice'. Got them from Sacred Seed in Toronto, Ontario. Anyway, the plants are in 3 or 4gallon pails, but they're fairly large, and need to be topped up every couple of days. The pails are contained and i just put airstones in the bottom. The pH has been unsteady because of their large water requirements. I try to keep it at 5.8 or so. I have no ppm or EC meter, so thats unknown. I'm using city tap water, which my local hydro guy says is fine. I figure if he was gonna lie about the water it would be for the purpose of selling me a RO system instead. The plants are day 11 flower, and i've been feeding with (per gallon) 5mL Fox Farm Tiger Bloom, 1/8tsp FF Open Sesame, 1mL Cal-mag, 1-2mL Dutch Master Zone, and 1/2tsp 35% H2O2. I usually end up adding about 2gal water, so i end up using double the amount i listed per gallon for each plant. I think this one plant is more hungry, but the spotting seems black rather than orange or anything. And the lower leaves have yellowing and dying off on the sides.. Seems like maybe calcium or potassium defs? Maybe probs caused by pH swings? Maybe they're just hungry? I vegged them for quite a while... they're both pretty big. I hope they dont overgrow my cab. Anyway, here are some pics:

Light Spotting:













Yellowing and necrosis:

 

[MynameStitch]

I have no ppm or EC meter, so thats unknown. I'm using city tap water, which my local hydro guy says is fine.

Having to grow hydro without a ppm meter or a proper ph meter is like driving a car at night without headlights...... you are going to run into problems.

You need to keep the ppm's steady by keeping them a certain level and fixing the rest with ph down or up which ever you are having the problem.

Another problem; you do not know your ppm's of your tap water... so having hard water can affect the uptake of nutrients to the plant.

Also depending on how hard or soft depends on if you need to suppliment calcium or magnesium.

It looks to me your ph is going out of wack to much causing the spotting.

Most ph issues resolve around the veins of the plant like that; but not limited to that.

The yellowing leaves could be caused by not enough nitrogen or your ph is just going up and down causing it to be locked out.......

Thank god you are only using 1/8 teaspoon of FF open seseame....... the npk of that is totaly out of wack and not balanced enough. 5-45-19 lol crazy!


You are using very little nitrogen.... sounds like that issue is caused by no nitrogen in there..... gotta get something with only nitrogen or very little P and K
Since you already are using bloom ferts you do not want to double up on it by getting something that has nitrogen and P and K.

If you can get some Fish emulsion that would fix the yellowing... but the spotting looks to be ph related.

I would only use the fish emulsion up until 1 1/2 week before harvest.. you want the plant to naturally yellow; they yellow towards the end anyways and you want it to, helps you know you are flushing out the nutrients which is want you want before harvesting them.

To much nutrients left in the plant causes bad smoke,taste and does not burn as smoothly.

So in order to fix this..... you will need to get a ppm meter; how are you testing your ph now?

You need to balance out your ph and get some ph down if it goes up.....
Get some nitrogen only supplement, because 12 days into flowering they are low on nitrogen and should defiantly not be yellowing right now.

Your ph swings from the plants taking nutrients out of the water.... which in turn you are getting spots.

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Thanks for the informative reply, Mynamestitch. I love your guide to sick plants and pH troubles!

Just checked the plants this morning... spotting and yellowing is worse on the one plant.

Anyway, i never said anywhere that i DONT have a pH meter... i said i dont have an EC meter! I do in fact have a pH meter, a handheld digital pH pen, and it seems to be working well. Due to my small reservoir size the plants drink a lot of water which seems to concentrate the nutrients in the water and drive the pH down generally. I've been trying to keep on top of it. My main concern is the dark greyish-black spots on the leaves. Are they just a precursor to regular nutrient-related necrosis? Or is it possible that its some kind of leaf fungi? The humidity's not too bad.. about 52% around the base of the plant, so the middle of the canopy is probably a bit higher.

I'm pretty sure now that thjis plant is just hungry as the other plant isn't showing signs like this and i've been treating it the same way. it's a bit smaller than this one (two plants from seed) and is more sativa dominant (however for some reason it seems to be budding more quickly). Do you recommend supplementing with some of FF's Grow Big for veg to help the plant out with the N? How much?

Also, I haven't been using the FF Organic Big Bloom because i'm paranoid about getting like root algae or root rot or some shit. Is it safe to use in a contained DWC? I'd like to use it for it's added benefits, but if i'm using products like Zone and H2O2 doesn't that just cancel it out? I've been recommended to get a pH buffer solution as well.. can you recommend good ones?

Thanks for your help, Mynamestitch. I'm sure we can get this back on track. I'm gonna go give the girl a little more nutes right now because i think she can take it and I'll let you know how it goes. Please still answer my above questions though because I'll still need to know about that stuff. Thanks so much!

 

[MynameStitch]

I never said you did not have a ph meter, I just said a proper ph meter.... was making a sarcastic joke.

Thanks, I am very glad you like it Yes you can use grow big and bloom; just do not use as much bloom or just take in account the P K 4-4
You can use the bloom but just use a little less since you are using grow big and that has P and K as well.

Not sure about the big bloom; never heard of the product till now; will have to find out if it does or not.

you can get gh ph up/down.

You calibrate your meter every 2 weeks? Also how often do you test your ph? If your ph is going down then you have to have soft water... would get ph up then.
Let me see what I can dig up on the organic big bloom; where did you hear about it possibly causing algae growth?

 

[blueberryfarmer]

I have pH up/down as well. The meter seems to be calibrated; I have some pH buffer solution at both pH 7 and 4 to help me calibrate it. I dont recalibrate every two weeks, but i generally check with the pH7 solution to see if the meter's accurate. FF's Organic Big Bloom is an organic supplement which kinda seems to be the cornerstone of their lineup. They recommend use of this product throughout the plant lifecycle. I'm surprised you haven't heard of it. I'm just worried that introducing organic matter will feed bad bacteria/algae rather than good bacteria. I'm paranoid after reading the thread stickied 'Strange slime buildup on roots' in this forum.

So do you tihnk i should up the feedings for this one plant? Supplement with a little FF Grow Big for N? Any thoughts on the dark greyish-black spots? I think i should just up the nutes overall. I've been checking the pH every couple of days.. I'm a student so i dont have as much time to spend on the plants as i'd like. It's been going down usually, but i changed the reservoir two days ago, and this morning the pH went up a couple of points to 6.3 in the plant with the problems and about 6.1 in the plant without the trouble.

Thanks so much for your attention! Please address those spots.. do those look like normal pH/nute related spots or could it be something else?

Here's the link for the foxfarm product's page:
http://www.foxfarmfertilizer.com/products_liqfert1.html

 

[MynameStitch]

those spotting looks like to be ph related more than anything else...... what are your water temps?

I would check the ph daily 2 times a day at least; so you know what the plants are doing.

Yes, I would give it some grow big; you do not want to over do it though considering you do not have a pph meter... so keep tabs on how much you are adding of the grow big.

It does not seem like a big deal but those little increatments do make a difference.

Try keeping the one with trouble to 6.1... you can have a range from 5.5 to 6.3
I would not go over 6.3

All strains are different and can tolerate different ph,nutrients lighting differently.

I will have to give that link a read later on; right now I am about to go head back to bed.... I was up pretty late last night was not feeling to well.

Your welcome for the help

But yes, I think the spots are from the ph not staying stable.

Those spots are nothing to do with a deficiency; now the yellowing on the other hand; that is not caused by ph issues since you do not have hardly any nitrogen in your feeding. The only small bit of nitrogen you have is from the FF open sesame and you are only using 1/8 teaspoon which is pretty much zilch of nitrogen.

Now on the other hand if you were supplementing with enough nitrogen and it was still having issues; it most likely would have been ph related.. but that is in a made up scenario I was just telling you about "what if"

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Well i've been checking the pH and adjusting it more often. It keeps swinging all over the place. The other plant is starting to show some signs of spotting now as well. Is there anything I can use that will help moderate pH swings? Some kind of pH buffer solution?

I gave the one plant about 3mL Grow Big in 2gal of water to help stop the yellowing. Its difficult to track, but seems to have slowed.

In response to your question, MyNameStitch, my water temps are usually in the high 60's to low 70's. Did you have a chance to check out the link on the Big Bloom? Do you think its safe for a contained DWC setup? Will its benefits be negated by the DM Zone that i use? Should i worry about root rot/bad bacteria proliferating when using the Big Bloom?

I just had a look on eBay and found a cheap 3in1 TDS meter that measures ppm, EC, and CF (i think) for $45 CAD shipped. Its accurate to 0.01EC, and 10ppm. It apparantly also has automatic temperature compensation. Hopefully its decent! I expect it'll be here in about two weeks and should be able to use it for my last month or so of flowering, at least.

Things are starting to frost up at day 15 flowering. The plant without much spotting seems to be progressing faster into flowering than the other one. It's already got a well defined bud structure and lots of hairs (which is unusual because it seemed to be leaning more toward the sativa side than the other plant which seemed more indica dominant). Things are looking good for the most part (with the exception of this minor spotting problem). Thanks for the help, MyNameStitch. I hope you can answer my remaining questions!

Edit: Here's a link to the ebay item I'm referring to: http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190163515770

 

[MynameStitch]

Use ph up or down to control it.... also keeping ppms stable; but never use more nutrients to try to adjust the ph.... you will burn them that way...... I would not use the bloom right now.. I would use it in a more controlled test with a different grow.... I never seen any nutrients that caused harm to the plants unless it was mixed wrongly.......

As long as it says it's for hydro and soil it's safe to use.

Did you get your plants from seed? Or clones?

You don't have to have expensive equipment to grow good weed. I am sure it would be more than good.
Just be careful ordering from E Bay; would not order from them anymore unless you have a safe addy; never have something sent to where your grow is.
E bay is notorious for narcing on growers..... they give information willingly to cops if they ask for it.... no warrant.. just hand it over like halloween candy for them........

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Thanks for the quick reply, MyNameStitch. Like i said above, they're from seed.

The only reason i dont want to use the Big Bloom despite the fact that it says its safe is i dont want to introduce organic matter which might feed any bad bacteria. Are you aware of other users of the FoxFarm product line that have a similar DWC setup to mine?

I, of course, change the pH using the pH up/down which i have, but I was wondering if there are any products which will provide a buffer for pH changes to slow them down. It changes over a matter of hours since the plants are sucking up so much water. Since my reservoirs are so small the pH is swinging all over the place and i was hoping there would be something that could slow that down...

Anyway, thanks for your help!

 

[MynameStitch]

Seed you can get different phenos which is why one is more sativa and the other seems more indica.........

Dood I just realized I used FF big bloom... but you confused me when you said FF organic big bloom. I musta been high off my ass on this one lolol.

I used FF big bloom on my first hydro grow; I did not have any issues with it.. but I did not just add it in with other nutrients... so I would wait untill your next grow to use it.

 

[blueberryfarmer]

LOL damn Stitch thats rough! You must be having some great harvests... hahaha. What do you mean that you didn't 'just add it in with other nutrients' ?? Are you saying you used this as your only nutrient?

BTW, the stuff i mentioned earlier about why my two plants are diff.. i know this is because they're from seed. I'm happy to have the different phenotypes.. i only mentioned this stuff just in case anybody was interested. I found it strange, though, that the more sativa-dominant pheno seems to be flowering faster so far! I think it may have autoflowering traits, though, because it seemed like it was starting the flower stretch BEFORE i switched to 12/12. Hard to say. Anyway, thanks for the help.

 

[MynameStitch]

Yup, in flowering.. my water was hard so I did not need to add cal mag, I did not have enough veg nutrients I ordered some which would of been there in a day or 2...........
I only got to grow out my hydro grow for a bit before I got popped........

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Damn i'm sorry to hear that MynameStitch. I hope you're keeping safe these days! Its hard finding a safe spot to practice such an awesome hobby...

 

[julio]

Do not use cal/mag if you are using hard tap water. You are overloading your plant with calcium, and magnesium, this causes lock out. Also as Stich said check your ph, but I guarantee you it is the calmag. I had the same problem. Ran the same strain again without the calmag no problems.

 

[MynameStitch]

When you get your meter you need to test your tap to see what ppms it is..... that way you will know if you can use cal mag or not.... like julio has stated.

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Things are looking worse!!!

The girls were slightly better after i first followed the advice of this thread. I tried to keep on top of the pH swings, but i can't seem to get a hold of it. Its always dropping with the water levels. I'm still waiting for my TDS meter to show up... i thought it would be here this week, but it damn well better be here next week. I can't say whether or not my water is hard or soft. Lately i've been feeding with 1tsp/gal Tiger Bloom, 1/8tsp/gal Beastie Bloomz, and about 3mL DM Zone per gallon. When i added the Grow Big as recommended, it seemed like i burned the plant (tips died and growth slowed). There are WAY too many roots for the size of the container. Up until last week I had been adding plain water to each bucket and then adding all the nutes into the rootzone and adjusting the pH. But now i'm convinced that the nutes must not be distributing evenly throughout the water and this may be a factor in harming my plants. So now i'm premixing the nutes whenever i change the water in the buckets. The girls are drinking like 1/2 to 1 gallon of water a day, and every time i check the pH of the water thats left in the buckets its down to 4-4.5. So to adjust and top off, i mix some water with a little more DM Zone and raise the pH up high, to like 8 or 9, in order to balance out the low pH in the buckets. I've been doing this for the last week and haven't seen any improvement. The plants are yellowing a LOT... it seems like N deficiency but when i added the FF Grow Big it seems like it made the plants' flowers stretch, and the uppermost leaves are really dark green. But if this spotting/yellowing doesn't slow down, i'm gonna lose most of my fan leaves at least a week or maybe two before the plants will be ready. They're on day 33 now and i expect they'll need at least another 3-4 weeks. The yellowing has affected almost all of the biggest fan leaves, and the spotting is starting to affect the smaller fan leaves near the buds. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how i could help stop this spotting and yellowing? Is there some kind of pH buffer solution I can use to help moderate the pH swings in the reservoir? Should i start using the FF Grow Big again to slow the yellowing (it seemed to help slightly before). Also, my water temps are between 65-70 and the canopy temps are probably 80-85F with the lights on as my plants are close to the light. Could this be a factor? I'm hopefully gonna build a cooltube tomorrow (my pyrex bake-a-round showed up recently). Anyway, here are some pics. I wish the pics depicted my problems better; they dont really show off the extent of the damage. Here you go:


















I see how much you help others, MyNameStitch, and its very commendable for you to spend so much time helping others when they are in need. I hope my issue can once again grab your attention! Thanks so much.

 

[MynameStitch]

Hi, yes I try to help as much as I can; but when you get advice and do not take it and your problem gets worse.. don't you think you should have at least tried something some people suggest? Not being a smart ass just trying to put it bluntly

When i added the Grow Big as recommended, it seemed like i burned the plant (tips died and growth slowed). There are WAY too many roots for the size of the container. Up until last week I had been adding plain water to each bucket and then adding all the nutes into the rootzone and adjusting the pH

First off never use the feeding directions on grow big, it's to high you do not want to go over 1 tsp per gallon......
How big are the bucket you are using?
To many roots in a bucket clog air stones and prevent o2 levels and cause issues with nutrients and fungus.

every time i check the pH of the water thats left in the buckets its down to 4-4.5. So to adjust and top off, i mix some water with a little more DM Zone and raise the pH up high, to like 8 or 9,

There is your answer to the spotting; your ph going up and down to much, you do not want your ph to go to 8 or 9 PERIOD!
You want it to stay in a range and when your nutrients are absorbed by the plants your ph is supossed to go up not down, I forget why that is....

This is why people use a RES, it helps to stabilize things better rather than manually doing what you are doing now....

The first most important thing you need to do is keep that ph stable and get some ph up rather than using high ppms to keep the water acidic.....

you keep ppms stable and you do not have a ppm meter so it's hard, like I said before you have to have one...... ph is your major cause for all of this, it's going up and down here that is causing your spotting.

Grow big does cause stetching that is what nitrogen does to the plant in flowering, you do have a nitrogen issue but I bet it's caused by ph going up and down and not knowing how much ppms you got in your setup.

I would not use more than 1 tsp per gallon of grow big, how much grow big were you using in the first place?

Is there some kind of pH buffer solution I can use to help moderate the pH swings in the reservoir? Should i start using the FF Grow Big again to slow the yellowing (it seemed to help slightly before). Also, my water temps are between 65-70 and the canopy temps are probably 80-85F with the lights on as my plants are close to the light. Could this be a factor? I'm hopefully gonna build a cooltube tomorrow (my pyrex bake-a-round showed up recently). Anyway, here are some pics. I wish the pics depicted my problems better; they dont really show off the extent of the damage. Here you go:

I told you to get some ph Up before and you need a ppm meter.
Use very little grow big, to much delays flowering and stretches the plant.

Your canopy temps need to stay around 75 to 80 as does the room temps.... that is a little over, but it's not causing your issues you are having now.

Your water temps are fine, are you testing them with a thermometer?

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Okay Stitch, i'm sorry maybe i'm not communicating effectively. Or maybe you're not reading effectively.

"but when you get advice and do not take it and your problem gets worse.. don't you think you should have at least tried something some people suggest? Not being a smart ass just trying to put it bluntly "
Thank you for clarifying you are not trying to be a smart ass because thats exactly how i would have taken that comment otherwise. I HAVE tried the things you have suggested. Things WERE better at first. Please read my posts carefully.
I appreciate your attempts to help but a lot of the answers to things you've brought up in your last post have already been clarified in earlier posts by me. I will restate these things for you as clearly as i can manage (which isn't always too clear hehe):

"First off never use the feeding directions on grow big, it's to high you do not want to go over 1 tsp per gallon......"
I used approximately 1/8 tsp per gallon Grow Big.

"How big are the bucket you are using?"
They are approximately 3-4 gallon square buckets. Far too small for plants this size; this issue will be fixed next time 'round.

"There is your answer to the spotting; your ph going up and down to much, you do not want your ph to go to 8 or 9 PERIOD!"
Okay, i dont think i was clear when i explained this part. I do not attempt to raise the 'res' pH up to pH 8 or 9 (I know this is a terrible idea). I have to raise the water that i add to top up the buckets to pH 8 or 9 so that when the water thats already in the buckets mixes with the water i'm adding, it evens out the pH to about 6 where i want it.

"This is why people use a RES, it helps to stabilize things better rather than manually doing what you are doing now...."
I would definately prefer to be using a res as you say, but my space and stealth restrictions prevent that.

"The first most important thing you need to do is keep that ph stable and get some ph up rather than using high ppms to keep the water acidic....."
"I told you to get some ph Up before and you need a ppm meter."
Sorry, maybe you missed when i stated earlier in the thread that i do own and use pH up. I think part of my problem so far has been adding pH up and other nutes straight into the buckets and into the root zone to mix them. I think that causes stress on the roots, and that's why I have switched to pre-mixing everything and then adding it to the buckets when needed. I've been doing this method for the last week and it hasn't seemed to help, however. I'm expecting my ppm/EC meter to arrive this coming week, so that should help shed some light on these problems.

"Your water temps are fine, are you testing them with a thermometer?"
No, i am judging them based on the ambient air temperature around the buckets. I assume that the water temps might be slightly cooler than the air temps, even.

So, my question persists: Is there any product that will act as a buffer for the pH changes in my buckets? To clarify, im looking for a product that will slow any changes up or down.
Is there anything else i could be doing to help stop this from getting worse?
Is it possible that this could be a result of a root rot or something similar that might be rotting my roots from the inside of the root mass? I can't visibly identify any problems with the roots, nor can i smell anything funky, so i hope this isn't a problem.
I noticed when topping up the buckets the other day that the water out of my tap has a fairly strong chlorine smell (strong for water, anyway). Could this be a factor in my problems? Should i let the water sit for a day before using it? I'm thinking that I should probably use half tap/half distilled water from the store at this point because I think my tap water probably is high PPM. Sometimes if i pour a glass of water i will see little dissolved solids and gases floating around in there for a minute or so before they settle.

Anyway, thanks for the help so far Stitch. Trust me, i've been listening to what you've been saying. I'm not the clearest communicator soemtimes but i can always clarify myself if necessary. If you could provide me some more insight by answering my last questions that would be great. Hopefully in a month's time i'll have some nice harvest pics to share with everyone. I started a thread a couple of weeks ago when things were looking great to show off the buds... also to contribute back to this community that has helped me so much! Please have a look, here:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=73393

Thanks

 

[MynameStitch]

Oh god I feel like an ass now, I help so many people sometimes I get confused; I do remember you doing that......

so please take my sincerest apologies

Yes, you should always let it sit out.. I forgot about asking you that..... chlorine can cause all kinds of random issues, let water sit out for at least 24 hours before giving it to your plants......

If you have hard water your pH will rise when you let your water sit out, if you have soft water your pH should go down a bit.....

Your roots would be slimy/brown or smell funny if you had root rot issues..... I would still check the water temp with a therm just to be sure. Ok, so now I am crystal clear in with the information you have given so there won't be any confusion going on anymore

No, worries man I do not explain things well to much.....
But your water seems to be hard with a pH it is out of the tap.......
hard water causes issues with the way plants absorb the nutrients.... but I bet the chlorine is causing and issue; I am so used to people using RO water with there grows that it's rare I ask if people let there water sit out....

 

[blueberryfarmer]

Ahhh damn so this chlorine thing could really be affecting them eh? Shit i wish i'd read that before i went through everything that i did today. Holy ****... but Stitch you'll be glad to hear that I've made some major changes that should help things out a LOT.

So i get up this morning and go check out the plants. To my horror, the spotting had gotten significantly worse overnight. It's on most of the leaves now, except the really tiny bud leaves. All the fan leaves are very yellow.
My plants were in modded square buckets that used to hold cat litter (dont worry they were cleaned well with bleach). These buckets happen to have a nice sturdy lip around them, below the lid, which i happened to glance at this morning. I had been contemplating getting the plants into bigger buckets for a while beacuse the roots had been so constricted and because of these problems, but i couldn't figure out how to get them out of these buckets with just the net pot and into another bucket or, well, anything that could contain them. The main problem would be that i couldn't exactly pull the roots through the hole for the 4" net pot (the root zone is ****ing huge). So, as i said, i noticed this lip further down the side of the bucket, and i got an idea. I went out to a couple different stores and found some perfect 5 or 6 gallon storage bins. I was able to cut the lid and top section of my existing buckets off and set them into these new bins (with proper holes cut in the lids). The lip going around the edge of my existing buckets was large enough to provide a good hold onto the lid of these new storage bins. Unfortunately the roots were like, moulded to the square shape of the older buckets, but i suppose they'll untangle themselves at least somewhat now that thehy've got some more real estate. So now i'm able to hold 4.5 gallons of water in each 'bucket', compared to the 1.5-2gal before. This should really help moderate the pH swings. I went back to adding some Grow Big to help slow this yellowing, and i used a gallon of distilled water in the reservoirs to help lower the ppms of the mixture.

I'm so glad I was able to accomplish this today... I was intending to build my cooltube today but i guess that will have to wait until next weekend. I think this will really help my plants out. And now that i know to definately let my water sit out before using it, I bet that will really help things too. The water definately has a noticeable chlorine smell (i dont have a very good sense of smell but even i can smell the chlorine in this). The guy at the local hydro store said tap water should be fine and that i wouldn't need to let it sit out and that chlorine can have some beneficial effects for the plant (helping keep the roots clean and stuff) but i dont think its good in such high amounts as there seems to be in my water.

SO, i'm finally letting out a big sigh of relief because i can relax now. It was a lot of work redoing these storage bins and moving the plants into them. Took me a lot of time today. I'm really glad i had a heat gun because without it i wouldnt' have been able to cut that plastic properly. But it was a job well done and i think the plants will be much happier for it. Hopefully my TDS meter comes this week and i can really get down to business (with like 2 or 3 weeks left LOL). Oh well, now i have it for the next grow. Thanks for the help so far Stitch. I'll update the thread once i get a feel for how the plants are responding to their new setup.