Wiring new outlet (Old Building)

[WillWorkForBuds]

Hello fellas,


I want to thank the guys who impart their knowledge to this forum, I wouldn't get anywhere fast without the information I gain from you guys, so thanks.


I have calculated my loads and I am wiring new outlet for some lights/fan/ac and I have not done this to such an old building before and I want to make damn sure I am doing it correctly. Last time the grounding bar and neutral bar were clearly seperate but this panel is making me nervous. Am I wrong or is the majority upper portion of the bar on the left the ground (bare copper wire on the top barely visible amongst white wires) and the bottom portion is the neutral bar, or vice versa? I am confused and havent found any info regarding this type of panel. Or am I just being stupid? Whoever wired it also used white wire on the breakers, was this on purpose? I plan on using the double pole red for my 4 outlet box. I know that each hot wire on the breaker goes to each outlet gold screw and the neutral goes to silver and ground goes to green.

Help so I dont fry something!!

http://www.2shared.com/file/6750618/8e907014/IMG00275.html

http://www.2shared.com/file/6750619/f9974082/IMG00277.html

http://www.2shared.com/file/6750621/dc619b73/IMG00278.html

 

[RedReign]

On some older panels the neutrals and grounds share the same bar.

They used the white wires for hots because they are 240v circuits. No big deal, but it would have been nice if they wrapped some red tape around the white wires to avoid confusion.

I hope you aren't planning to connect that existing red/black 240v circuit directly to a receptacle. Probably wouldn't be possible anyway. Are you going to connect a subpanel to that circuit?

 

[WillWorkForBuds]

No I do not plan to use the 240v red/black, I am planning to use the double poll that is off, take off the poll bridge so they are singles, each will go to its own 20amp outlet, just on the other side of the room so its not going far.

So ground wire should go onto the top bar and neutral on the bottom or does it even matter.

 

[PharmaCan]

Your grounds should be on one bar and your neutrals on another and both bars should be bonded to the box.

Maybe I'm going blind but I don't see a separate ground coming out of that box anywhere. You should install a grounding rod and wire. Actually, you should get an electrician to clean up that panel for you. No offense but a guy with your lack of knowledge shouldn't be messing with a live panel. (Just trying to keep you alive and safe.)

PC

 

[RedReign]

Oh, OK, you're going to use the red breaker.

The top part of the bar is bonded to the panel, which is grounded. It's hard to see in the pic, but if that is 1 solid bar, you can put the neutrals and grounds anywhere.

 

[caljim]

Looks like that bus on the left side of the board is bonded to the panel via that copper strap about 2/3 the way up. I also see the bus is hooked to the grounding conductor that came with the feed for the board at ther bottom of the bus and goes from there to what I can only assume is the grounding electrode.

Everything here looks like it should be the main panel, but theres no main breaker in that panel.

All that aside you should get 120v between a hot and any point on that bus. But really the only place where the grounding conductor and nuetral should be on the same bus is in the enclosure that holds the disconnect for branch circuits of a seperately derived system. In each panel down line from the main the neutral and ground bus should be independant.

 

[PharmaCan]

Looks like that bus on the left side of the board is bonded to the panel via that copper strap about 2/3 the way up. I also see the bus is hooked to the grounding conductor that came with the feed for the board at ther bottom of the bus and goes from there to what I can only assume is the grounding electrode.

Everything here looks like it should be the main panel, but theres no main breaker in that panel.

All that aside you should get 120v between a hot and any point on that bus. But really the only place where the grounding conductor and nuetral should be on the same bus is in the enclosure that holds the disconnect for branch circuits of a seperately derived system. In each panel down line from the main the neutral and ground bus should be independant.

That looks like an old Bulldog or Square D main panel - They didn't have main breakers.

The upper bus is bonded with the bonding clip. The lower bus doesn't have a bonding clip, but it is probably screwed directly into the panel. One of those mounting screws should be replaced with a proper, approved grounding screw.

The red wire is the PowCo neutral, which of course is a ground. Nevertheless the panel should have a separate ground wire connected to the ground bus then to a grounding rod and the cold water pipe. Panels of that vintage usually used a solid copper, metal sheathed AWG 8 (sometimes AWG 10) conductor for the ground. The neutrals should go to the neutral bus with the PowCo neutral and the grounds to the ground bus with the aforementioned grounding wire connected to it. Granted, the neutral and ground both go to earth, but as long as upgrades are being made they might as well be done properly.

PC

 

[madpenguin]

That looks like an old Bulldog or Square D main panel - They didn't have main breakers.

The upper bus is bonded with the bonding clip. The lower bus doesn't have a bonding clip, but it is probably screwed directly into the panel. One of those mounting screws should be replaced with a proper, approved grounding screw.

The red wire is the PowCo neutral, which of course is a ground. Nevertheless the panel should have a separate ground wire connected to the ground bus then to a grounding rod and the cold water pipe. Panels of that vintage usually used a solid copper, metal sheathed AWG 8 (sometimes AWG 10) conductor for the ground. The neutrals should go to the neutral bus with the PowCo neutral and the grounds to the ground bus with the aforementioned grounding wire connected to it. Granted, the neutral and ground both go to earth, but as long as upgrades are being made they might as well be done properly.

PC

Yep, yep, yep....

I will add that if your planning on using that existing circuit then you will have no neutral. That red breaker is fed with 10/2 or whatever/2 wire. You can only get one 120v circuit if your using that same branch circuit. Pull the handle tie, remove the white wire and terminate it on the neutral bus. One 120v circuit.

 

[caljim]

MadPenguin says it all right here--------}When in doubt, hire an Electrician.