wind and plant-sex

[DocLeaf]

Hi folks

Started this thread because this debate/discussion was cluttering up another thread... were talking about the influence of wind over plant sex. Questioned as follows:

Is seed sex determined by wind source in WILD populations(?)

That is, as a means of regulating population density in wild cultivar of cannabis, it has been 'suggested' that; male plants grow onto the prevailing wind so as to spread pollen unto the female plants down-wind...

This brain-food was developed a while back on OG. Some cats were really heavy on this subject. I'm not sure about the WHO, WHERE, WHEN's... but it's a nice theory that attempts to explain social behaviour in plants...

Botanical 'theory' does indeed suggest that 'plant sex' is influenced by pheromones - (chemicals secreted by animals and plants, that influences the behavior or development of others of the same species, often functioning as an attractant of the opposite sex)...

Anyone have any thoughts on this ???

Peace n Bloom
DocLeaf

"pon ya learn ya grow..."

 

[DJ Twist]

I would think it's possible. Since pollen-producting plants rely on the wind, it would be advantageous to spread as much as possible.

Here's an article that is similar to this idea:

http://biomechanics.bio.uci.edu/_html/nh_biomech/pollen/pollen.htm

 

[DocLeaf]

Thanks DJ Twist... excellent contribution

with knowledge, light is pulled from shadow...

 

[Blackmelo]

ah DocLeaf, brilliant idea.
I hope lots of ppl will get to read this and leave their opinions on this matter.

Since the scientific reserach that we want done on our favourite plants is not beeing done, it is up to our little growing community to try and gather as much information about this plant as we can.

Pls any1 post experiences of high male rates you suspected to be due to environmental factors. Pls also post anything that might prove this theory wrong.

Now although it doesn't happen alot, I occasionally will see a post about a new grower getting pretty much all males on his/her first growm, wondering why this happened. Might be pure coincidence sure but highly unlikely imo. Growers with a bit of expereince on them will tend to have higher female rates, on a consistent basis. In my expereince this has definetely been the case. As I have treated the plants better and better, the higher my female rates have become.

I didn't know seeds might be able to change their sex but I read about it on OG a while ago. I can completely understand why alot of ppl would be sceptical about this matter, I was unsure at first too but an early experience with some feminised seeds pretty much convinced me that seeds have their sex pre-determined but that sex can change if the plant is stressed out too much due to environmental conditions.

On one of my very early grows I was stressing out some feminised seeds as much as you can possibly imagine. Low and drastically varying temps, no nutes, wrong ph, stagnant air. The outcome: pure males. Not hermies, not females but males. I was once a new grower and didnt know much about growing and yes I was pretty much doing everything wrong I could have. Oh yeah did I mention tiny pots? anyway, the feminised seeds I had were fine. I grew out a couple first time and both turned female as expected. It was on the next run that I did everything wrong and all 4 plants turned male. All other seeds after that were female again.

Now I am only a small time grower so my results aren't very accurate or scientific but I'm hoping if we gather the experiences on cannabis' sex from enough people we can finally classify them as facts instead of myths if they turn out to be true.

Dutch passion has written a very good article on increasing female rates, they mention temperature, humidity, nitrogen amount fed and light spectrum used and according to my very short expereince on experimenting this matter it seems to have had some positive effects.

Unfortunately they do not mention wind but I believe this is infact the main factor determining sex in vegitation.

Two people on Overgrow stated that they saw a distinct pattern in where male plants would usually appear in their grow room after having grown seeds after each other for a while. According to them, male plants were most likely to appear in the most breezy parts of the grow room, mostly by a fan or intake hole.

I don't actually personally have any experience wind beeing detrimental but I do without it in vegg. It doesn't need wind blowing on it in vegg.
It is later on in flowering that you want an oscilationg fan to:

- increase airflow to help with plants increased transiration and breathing rates

- prevent mold

-reduce humidity and heat

As long as you have a good extraction fan going, an oscilating fan is not essential in a small grow in vegitation. To keep the plants stems as strong as they would be with a fan blowing on them, bend the stems about by hand each day. This strengthens the stems by breaking cells slightly which are renewed stronger.

bit more food for thought:
Instead of increasing female rates, are we infact leaving seed sex as it was pre-determined to be and trying to prevent any seeds changing sex to becoming male.
If you were to belive that theory, you would believe that cannabis will produce a slightly higher ratio of females than males naturally when making seeds and if the plants were grown properly, the seeds would turn out what they were pre-determined to be, mostly female. If something is drastically wrong in your growing room however that stresses out your plants they are more likely to change sex and increase male rates.

 

[purcellville]

This is some very interesting work and makes a hell of a lot of sense when you consider propogation and pollen distribution in the wild.

 

[Guest]

Well i am pretty sure i have id'd a male today, I am going to let him go another few days in this area to make 100%. He is furthest away from my air movement fan and extraction fan. Out of 7 seeds he is the second male, which isnt to bad i ges i will have to see what the two unsexed plants closest to the extraction and fan turn out as ( fingers crossed for females). Or maybe i should be moving those two ? hehe. He is closest right.

 

[ogrefugee]

Hey, there are many things that can cause hermaphrodism, but I feel M/F is in the genetics of the seed to start. I have seen no patterns regarding wind causing plants to be male, if this was true, every outdoor plant would be male, no? Plenty of wind outdoors, way stronger than any fan, at times...

On avg here, I have seen winds vary from from 5-50 KPH day-to-day thru a season. As well as temps that can fluctuate from near freezing, shortly after planting/ near harvest, to 32-33 C through the cycle of growth.

Last years backyard greenhouse saw plenty of strong winds funneling thru under the tarp... Not 1 nanner - I am unconvinced wind has any effect on sex.

Also, when you're outdoors, just which way is "downwind"? Considering the wind blows from all 4 directions of the compass, one day to the next. ie) N winds today, E tomorrow, the next day, S....it's not like a river, which flows the same direction constantly, or a fan in a growroom that blows the same direction day in/day out.

Not trying to rip up the idea, but it does not make sense to me. Those who got like 4 males their first time, IMO, it was just shitty luck with the seed. They grabbed 4 male seeds - I too, have had 4/4 males myself - once - from seed. Wound up grabbing a clone for a mom that year. As far as sex goes, you'll never know, 'till they show.

Just my 2 cents

Peace

yep

 

[Blackmelo]

Moebudz, thx for stopping by and having a critical look at things.

I read somewhere once that our indoor grown plants know very well they are not grown under the sun but they do not die because they want to survive and can tell, they are getting a decent environment even if it is not quite natural. Outdoor buds are plain better alot of ppl reckon but our plants can be grown well under artificial conditions. However, because of this, indoor grown plants are much more susceptible to stress.
This is one main reason why hermie rates are higher indoors.

Since indoor plants are more susceptible to stress I also attribute environmental factors having an increased role in indoor growing.

Just one more experience I didn't mention in this post yet which I feel might baffle a few....
Few years back, I got an unknown mystery strain off a friend. I grew it out and it was a nice 90cm tall indica plant. Yielded nicely too. Just the one seed we had found in some bud that happened to turn female.
Well, I cloned this plant like all my other plants and started rooting them, flowering out the main plant. Harvested main plant and grew out the 2 cuttings I had taken off this plant. Both ended up beeing male.
The plant itself changed sex, and this was a fully mature plant.
The probability of this happening is extremely slim but it did happen.

 

[kov]

Very interesting concept. I don't know about the indoor, but I have had enough outdoor grows in various places over the years to safely assume that wind has no impact on sexing plants. I normally get a solid 50/50 male/female ratio outdoors, and virtually no hermies.

BUT, in indoors my ratios differ, sometimes in favor of males, sometimes in favor of females. Don't know what causes this, but I'm sure that if we were to recreate the outdoor environment indoors, there would be much less complaints on the forums about hermie or strange m/f ratios.

That would also lead me to an assumption that sex is not predetermined in seed after all, gotta do some googling on this.

rgds, kov

 

[purcellville]

Moe,

here is one thing to think about regarding your point regarding wind direction. Where I am, teh wind does blow in all direction. However, as I am in the valley I have predominant wind that rushes over the hillside down the valley and is 9/10 time a westerly wind around here.

On a similar note, when at the shore or near large bodies of water air tend to move from the water to the land during the day and towards the water at night (it might be the other way around) but it is fairly predictable.

Next for centuries man navigated the oceans following anual wind patterns that flow in predicatble and steady directions during differrent times of the year.

So what does all this mean, well probably nothing but I think the predictability of wind patterns is a little more than random on a daily basis. In the end I am sure genetics and stress play a majority of the roles in this situation, but is certainly a fun hypothesis to kick around.

 

[Underground Man]

Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Some areas do have a major prevailing wind, some don't. I think genes that want to spread pollen in high wind would have a reproductive advantage.

The only way to know is for someone to devise an experiment and get enough data points to do some statistical calucualtions. Maybe there is research on this subject for other plants

 

[Guest]

Males like it high, dry, clear and hot. Females like it low, humid, a bit cloudy. But there are also some field genos out there.. oh, and hermies too.

 

[DocLeaf]

Hey folks just been reading and it seems there was call for this thread afterall.
It's very good to see everyone swapping info. in the good old fashioned stoner way...

Food for thought:

Some time in 2005 we hatch and nurtured a couple of 'Holland's Hope' (BlackLabel). One individual was topped and cloned. When rooted the mother plant was placed into 12/12. after 14 days she proved female, and was placed into bloom. a nice plant with an exceptional stone...

The clone was given to a hydrogrower, with as many years grow time,,, a week or two later the same hydrogrower came back at me, saying I'd polluted his room with a male... lol. So, he looked at the mother in bloom (100% female sexuality), I took a look at the clone in veg (100% male sexuality),,, The clone in question was NOT/didn't herm! There were NO female pistils,,, only male pollen sacs (?)(?)(?)
Makes one think, cause this hydrogrower runs a cold/breezy room and treats his plants like dirt!

This would suggest one of two things, either:

1) phenotype holds a direct influence over sexuality in the genotype of dioecious species (?)

or

2) the hydrogrower mixed up some of his clones (?)

...personally i by into the former, since my man has things dialed

keep it ebbing and flowing folks... you're the avant-garde
peace dL

"feed me ganja-weed..."

 

[DocLeaf]

Food for thought:

Given the hypothesis that has been put foward thus far -

The oval below represents a wild population of plants:



If this population is then sub-divided into sections (A, B, & C) according to distance from wind source we can draw several conclusions:

1) Section A will contain the highest amount of males.
(according to hypothesis).

2) Section A,B,C may contain a mix of male to female plants.
(a mix female:male ratio is displayed)

3) Section C will contain fewer males.
(thus follows the logic of the above hypothosis).

I don't buy into this,,,

hhhmmmm.... pensive...

any thoughts ppl???? DL

 

[DocLeaf]

anyone??? :wink:

 

[DocLeaf]

no-one?

 

[CarpeNoctem]

Damn

 

[purcellville]

I am watching. WHo is growing the test batch?

 

[southpaw]

Let's bump this and see what happens.

All I can add is that growing feminized seeds with a fan pointing directly at them did not so much as even herm them. But since my next run I'm doing things au natural, I'm curious what peeps think.

Anyone?