Why Were my Plants so Small this Year?

[DuskrayTroubador]

I'm trying to figure this out so that I can make corrections for this coming season.


First, here are two pictures from a previous year for comparison:

The plant on the right in the above picture yielded just under 2lbs for me.


This girl below wasn't so healthy at the end, but up until then she performed very well.

The following two pictures are two of my biggest plants from this past season:

As you can see, these plants are wayyyyyyy smaller than previous ones.


The first difference that came to mind is that the bigger plants are from the last year that I used (synthetic) Jack's fertilizers. Since then, my plants have been totally organic.


The sunlight was perhaps a bit better at the plot that had the bigger plants (unfortunately that location is no longer viable), but not that much better.


I did use a bag of perlite (maybe more) in each hole for the bigger plants. For the smaller plants, there was no aeration mixed in other than one block of coco coir. This may have been a big factor, as I noticed growth rate was slow for much of the season -- maybe the roots had trouble spreading out?



It's also possible that I'd overwatered in the beginning of the season as well. I plant germinated seeds straight into their final holes, so I tend to baby them until they get somewhat established. This may have led to me inadvertently overwatering early on.


The soil that had the smaller plants was amended with a brick of coco coir, a bunch of rabbit manure, and insect frass. Also a handful of fast-acting pulverized lime. Feeding throughout the season was done either by topdress or insect frass tea -- but the plants seemed to be nutrient deficient on many occasions. The insect frass I made tea with was rated 3-2-4 I believe, or something to that effect. It was recommended to use one tablespoon per gallon, but I used closer to 2/3 cup per gallon (one tablespoon of Jack's was 20-20-20, so I multiplied the amount of insect frass to get to/exceed the amount of macronutrients administered with 1 tablespoon of Jack's).


But the plants still turned out small...


Do I just need to amend to soil with a whole lot more manure this time around? Any other ideas about what might have gone wrong?



The bud from the smaller plants was still dank! There just wasn't much of it...

 

[therevverend]

It looks like there's one big factor that's different then the previous year. Not a combination of things. It's your Veg growth that's the factor, not so much flowering. Your plant isn't as big, not the buds. I'm guessing it's fertilizer. Maybe organic vs synthetic.

I'm an organic grower, swear by it and grow big plants. It takes a lot of fertilizer worked into the ground to equal a small amount of concentrated chemies. The chemies are readily available so the uptake is rapid and immediate. I've used Alaska fish organic the last couple years, works the same way as the synthetic fertilizers, the same rapid uptake and growth pattern. I'd recommend it or something similar.

Another factor could be strain. If it's not from the same seed stock it makes a huge difference. The 'before' pictures have a bushy Afghani big bud structure, this year's crop has much less bushiness. A plant will only get as big as it's genetics allow.

Or it could be the amount of sunlight, or the weather was different. This makes a difference but even in a wet cold year the plants should get to a similar veg size. It's in the flowering that the sunlight becomes a bigger factor.

There's timing and size when you planted out. Smaller later planting will lead to smaller plants. I'd think it's either later planting out/smaller starts or fertilizer. One other tip, I'd make sure they have plenty of P and K plus micro-nutrients. It'll all lead to happier bigger Veg growth which is where your problem was.

 

[dufous]

Same thing for me. Switched to a way less potent organic from chem, much smaller plants.

 

[Mr. J]

Ya, no matter what the tree huggers will tell you, the plants, they love chemicals. You really need to have your soil dialed in to get the most out of organic. A lot of complex things going on, living organisms and all that, in real dirt. If you're not experienced with all of it, you're probably going to to get better results with straight minerals that the plant can just suck right up without having to depend on microbes and fungi and stuff like that. That's not to say that you can't get excellent results out of organic soil, it's just that you need to put a bit more work into feeding the soil and learn a bit about the biology of a living soil. It's not a whole lot more difficult, it's just different. With organic there's a whole biological buffer in between the nutrients and your plants and that requires a whole different mindset when it comes to feeding.

 

[troutman]

More sunlight = bigger plants.

So is using more good soil and watering more per plant.

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

Are the plants from last year of the same genetic makeup of the plants you grew out this year? Seed plants tend to get bigger than clones, but I've also had clones that got large...so ymmv



I don't get a ton of sun in my spot, but I do manage to grow some decent sized plants just about every year and most of that is due to genetics and a cup or two of my favorite dry organic fert (as well as some mycos applied directly to the rootball at transplant) in each hole. I grow in mounds placed inside large beds, so I try not to dig up too much soil in my planting area or disturb it by stepping all over it.



Depending on the type of soil you have, adding things like coir or perlite might not be the best idea. Perlite floats to the top and doesn't degrade quickly...coir can make for "wet spots" that don't dry out evenly. I prefer using small lava rock if I'm looking to add something for aeration. It's inert, won't fuck with your pH, and it breaks down over time. Best time to prep your soil is way before you plan on using it.



I generally end up leaving the rootball in the soil come harvest time. The whole idea is to not disturb the soil or add too much into it. This season, I applied worm tea a few times, but didn't go overboard with it and the plants had plenty of food to make it to the end.



HB.

 

[Jammal]

Yeah man go nuts with MG tomato food outdoor and hungry genetics....giant plants

 

[Flying Monkey]

I can get big plants without chems but it does take some work for sure. I find heaps healthier growth though, less disease, mold, better resilience over all. That said ive a lot more experience organic - maybe thats all it is. I swear its a sweeter smoke though.

Sunlight yues for sure but also- Do the plants have unlimited water/topdresses- looks like there would be much more root competition in the smaller plant pics. I was digging up a vege patch that had been struggling the other day. Thought it needed a refresh, Found a huge feeder root from a poplar tree that ran nearly 100ft from the tree. It smelt the moisture and rich soil and invaded. Veges were half the size of identical beds 10ft away.

 

[Ktaadn]

I also think lack of nutrition was a factor. For organic "rocket fuel" I like to use seabird guano pellets. 12-12-2.5 is what I prefer but there are others with similar numbers. It packs a punch and is also released gradually as the pellets break down. There are lots of other options that would also work but the SG really does the trick.

It's also possible you had some ph fluctuations due to the fast acting lime. Dolomite would be preferable and you wouldn't have any dramatic ph swings.

 

[wh1p3dm34t]

what about the seasons rains ? here it was a very dry last season for non irrigated plants. (basically there were no big rains over the summer, not even smalls)

 

[St. Phatty]

Well at least they're proportioned right. with big buds for the main buds.

One of my neighbors has a similar problem. All popcorn buds on a 9 foot tall plant. My 2 foot tall plant had bigger buds than his 9 foot plant - from the same seed batch.

I think he's over-nuting the plants.


If the nutes are right, size seems to be a combination of water access and sun access.

Did you plants have to content with wildfire smoke this year ?

 

['Boogieman']

Use stronger organic fertilizers, add 4-6 cups of fertilizer per cubic foot of soil. Chicken manure pellets are gold for growing big plants, animals won't mess with it and it's stronger in nutrients overall. Also wider holes should help a lot.

 

[Flying Monkey]

So many manures to buy some of them top dollar. I rarely find they out grow chook shit if you can gett a bit more P and micronutes from kelp and guano.

 

[DuskrayTroubador]

It looks like there's one big factor that's different then the previous year. Not a combination of things. It's your Veg growth that's the factor, not so much flowering. Your plant isn't as big, not the buds. I'm guessing it's fertilizer. Maybe organic vs synthetic.

I'm an organic grower, swear by it and grow big plants. It takes a lot of fertilizer worked into the ground to equal a small amount of concentrated chemies. The chemies are readily available so the uptake is rapid and immediate. I've used Alaska fish organic the last couple years, works the same way as the synthetic fertilizers, the same rapid uptake and growth pattern. I'd recommend it or something similar.

Another factor could be strain. If it's not from the same seed stock it makes a huge difference. The 'before' pictures have a bushy Afghani big bud structure, this year's crop has much less bushiness. A plant will only get as big as it's genetics allow.

Or it could be the amount of sunlight, or the weather was different. This makes a difference but even in a wet cold year the plants should get to a similar veg size. It's in the flowering that the sunlight becomes a bigger factor.

There's timing and size when you planted out. Smaller later planting will lead to smaller plants. I'd think it's either later planting out/smaller starts or fertilizer. One other tip, I'd make sure they have plenty of P and K plus micro-nutrients. It'll all lead to happier bigger Veg growth which is where your problem was.

Thanks for the suggestions, man. Do you know of any other fast-acting organic ferts aside from the Alaskan fish? Bears and critters digging up my soil has been a problem in the past, and I think they'd really go after the fish.

Are the plants from last year of the same genetic makeup of the plants you grew out this year? Seed plants tend to get bigger than clones, but I've also had clones that got large...so ymmv



I don't get a ton of sun in my spot, but I do manage to grow some decent sized plants just about every year and most of that is due to genetics and a cup or two of my favorite dry organic fert (as well as some mycos applied directly to the rootball at transplant) in each hole. I grow in mounds placed inside large beds, so I try not to dig up too much soil in my planting area or disturb it by stepping all over it.



Depending on the type of soil you have, adding things like coir or perlite might not be the best idea. Perlite floats to the top and doesn't degrade quickly...coir can make for "wet spots" that don't dry out evenly. I prefer using small lava rock if I'm looking to add something for aeration. It's inert, won't fuck with your pH, and it breaks down over time. Best time to prep your soil is way before you plan on using it.



I generally end up leaving the rootball in the soil come harvest time. The whole idea is to not disturb the soil or add too much into it. This season, I applied worm tea a few times, but didn't go overboard with it and the plants had plenty of food to make it to the end.



HB.

I've been meaning to order some mycos (maybe a plant probiotic bundle of some sort) for this year. Think it'll make a huge difference?


I've also been torn about whether or not I ought to turn the soil over when I amend the holes for this year. Part of me doesn't want to disturb whatever processes have been going on, but part of me also thinks that I need to break up the dirt and possibly add some sort of areation. Lava rock is expensive, but I was thinking of simply using some gypsum to break up the clay. I've mixed in and top dressed with a fair amount of manure before and during last season so hopefully that will have helped with the soil density and breathability.


I was also thinking that maybe I should've made the holes bigger (they're about 2.5ft in diameter and 1 foot deep)

I can get big plants without chems but it does take some work for sure. I find heaps healthier growth though, less disease, mold, better resilience over all. That said ive a lot more experience organic - maybe thats all it is. I swear its a sweeter smoke though.

Sunlight yues for sure but also- Do the plants have unlimited water/topdresses- looks like there would be much more root competition in the smaller plant pics. I was digging up a vege patch that had been struggling the other day. Thought it needed a refresh, Found a huge feeder root from a poplar tree that ran nearly 100ft from the tree. It smelt the moisture and rich soil and invaded. Veges were half the size of identical beds 10ft away.

Root competition is a real possibility; the plots were generally a bit more grown in compared to the first. When I dug the holes, I removed any giant roots I came across (though perhaps I avoided making contact with one that is lying between holes?)

I also think lack of nutrition was a factor. For organic "rocket fuel" I like to use seabird guano pellets. 12-12-2.5 is what I prefer but there are others with similar numbers. It packs a punch and is also released gradually as the pellets break down. There are lots of other options that would also work but the SG really does the trick.

It's also possible you had some ph fluctuations due to the fast acting lime. Dolomite would be preferable and you wouldn't have any dramatic ph swings.

The seabird guano seems like a really good idea for a slow-release organic fert that animals won't want to dig up.



Do you think the ph fluctuations due to the fast-acting lime would have settled a bit since last year?

Use stronger organic fertilizers, add 4-6 cups of fertilizer per cubic foot of soil. Chicken manure pellets are gold for growing big plants, animals won't mess with it and it's stronger in nutrients overall. Also wider holes should help a lot.

Is that 4-6 cups of pellets per cubic foot of soil, or does that also include the manure that I topdress with and mixed into the soil?


In any case, the manure clearly wasn't enough, so I'm certainly in the market for some organic nutes now, both slow-release and fast-acting.

 

[DuskrayTroubador]

Been real busy with life shit, but a big thanks to everyone who replied!



I also should mention that I had some issues with my cover crop last year. The cover crop kept outgrowing the seedlings, crowding them out of sunlight in the very early days. Was this because I just littered the dirt with seeds at a much higher application rate than what was recommened on the bag?


I also suspect the cover crop may have ended up consuming most of the manure's nutrients... Should I maybe not use a cover crop this year?


If I'm not going to turn the soil over (supposing I shouldn't), should I just throw down my amendments on top of the holes as they are and maybe till in a little bit?


Also, how early would you guys be willing to start seeds outside? Flowering hormones are generally triggered at about 14.25 hours of daylight (give or take) from what I understand, but that will only happen if the plants are mature enough to flower at all before daylength gets too long. Once I germinate, the seeds then go directly into their final holes. Last year I germinated the first ones April 20th, but I think I could go a bit earlier this year. How early do y'all think I could germinate without worrying about Spring flowering and re-veg?



Another way the question could be put is: how many weeks old must a seed plant be, roughly, before it is capable of beginning to flower if daylength isn't long enough?

 

[pahut]

Hey man take a look at my grow this season, only did 15 or so 'big holes' 2.5ft wide and 2ft deep (80-100 liters) roughly, and the rest of the holes were 20-30 liters.

Still got decent size plants in the smaller holes.

Now I think of it, we even have decent size plants in holes I could only dig the size of my fist as there were so many tree roots in the ground. I guess that the weed plant roots can maneuver around the tree roots in the soil.

We just keep em watered and they keep growing, bagseed too.



You might get some ideas anyways, we're Southern Hemisphere too so might have to swap times by 6 months.


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=367683




And with reveg, that hit us hard. We planted too early , late Oct early Nov and got hit with reveg. But could have been coz we were moving from indoor lights too. Next time I wont be planting earlier than Nov 20. We have plants planted mid way through Dec that are monsters so don't mind waiting another 20 days to plant out.



And I think regarding your question at the end there, I would say it'd reach maybe 100-200mm tall and start to flower. If it's being raised from seed in 12/12 then it's going to flower. If you don't want that to happen and it's an outdoor plant on your property it's easy enough to rig up a cheap LED light to give it an extra couple hours at night to keep in veg.

 

['Boogieman']

Is that 4-6 cups of pellets per cubic foot of soil, or does that also include the manure that I topdress with and mixed into the soil?


In any case, the manure clearly wasn't enough, so I'm certainly in the market for some organic nutes now, both slow-release and fast-acting.

Is the manure your using composted chicken manure or from a different animal? I aim for about 30-35% compost in my soil which is worm casting and composted horse manure. If you have access to composted chicken manure you have gold for large outdoor plants and don't need the pellets. I would plant your cover crop a month before you plant your weed, then till your cover crop into the soil a week before you plant. Use mulch or a white clover cover crop during summer. I would just mulch and top dress organic fertilizer instead of relying on a nitrogen fixing cover crop myself.

4-6 cups per cubic foot includes the bonemeal I add in fall, animals will not mess with it come spring. I add kelp, ground alfalfa pellets, and chicken pellets in spring going heavier on the alfalfa and chicken manure pellets. I also top dress kelp, alfalfa, and chicken manure pellets heavily throughout the year and top dress comfrey too. Also digging holes about 3 ft wide and 1 1/2 ft deep will help tremendously, you will always get larger outdoor plants if you till your soil in spring especially if your dealing with clay.

 

[TychoMonolyth]

Important things are;

• 
  Sunlight. Trim away the weeds. Seriously, this is really important. I leaned this by missing a few plants and they grew competing with tall weeds. They spent the majority of the vegetative phase trying to out stretch the weeds instead of producing side branches. Looks like yours did the same thing. I use a cordless string trimmer, but if you don't have one, then use large manual garden or hedge trimmers and get to work. lol

or

• 
  A Good Hole. A good hole is at least 12 inches deep and 24 inches wide. 90% of the roots are in the top 12 inches so go wider instead of deeper. I dig my holes about a month in advance or as soon as I can get in once spring water drains, and add a cup or two of amendments at that time. Make sure you don't over do it with fluffy stuff like pure promix or the like or your plants will fall over in a good wind. They need a good anchor. If you don't add amendments, at least broadcast some N fertilizer (20.0.4 lawn fertilizer is ok). But there's nothing wrong with doing it when you plant.

• 
  Water. When you plant, they need a good half bucket of water. If you're in luck, you have rain in the immediate forecast. I always pre-hydrate Water Crystals and add those to the holes in spots I won't be visiting much (other than for trimming away weeds) as well. Using them dry is good too, but mix them in your holes really well, and no more than a tablespoon or they'll push your little plants out of the holes when they swell with rain water.

• 
  Use your string trimmer a couple more times. Try to keep those weeds shorter than half your plant. If you can't visit, then trim down to the earth when you plant. Use a shovel to strip away some of the sod 3 feet away from your plant if you have to. If you do this, spread clover seed on the bare soil spots. It'll help with evaporation and help hide it from above.

Finally, if you have a choice between morning and afternoon sun exposure, choose morning, so plant with your back to the north west. I have a large 5 acre spot that is clear over head but surrounded by bush, and the plants that get the early morning sun do best.

Good luck this year.

 

[Mr. J]

The problem is lugging in all that stuff. It's a lot easier moving a highly concentrated fertilizer out to the middle of nowhere than it is to carry in many pounds of manure and other organic stuff.

 

[Chunkypigs]

loose well drained soil tilled as wide as you want the plant to grow, add the perlite iff you can afford it or just cheap gravel if you are amending native soil. well composted wood chips or sticks or busted up chunks from rotted logs gathered from the forest are even better for lightening native soil plots and its free and plentiful. the more rotten the better.

turn over the ground in the fall and add compost and lime then or as early as possible in the spring.

green compost can be free and easy to gather especially around a guerilla site like that.

cheap organic nutes that work. Gypsum and lime. Bone meal, chicken pellets, alfalfa in bulk from feedstore, manure composts, Soft rock Phosphate, langbeinite, humic acid

not so cheap but great to add organics, Worm castings, kelp meal (feed store), fish bone meal

good cheap flowering salts available on amazon in small quantities.
Triple Super Phosphate 0-46-0
Monopotassium Phosphate Fertilizer 0-52-34 100% Water Soluble
Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate - 35.5% Zn - 99% Pure - 1 Pound
Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate - 32% Mn - 1 Pound
Milliard Citric Acid 1 Pound - 100% Pure Food Grade
MILLIARD Borax Powder
Boric Acid Granular Powder Half Lb.(Half Pound)
Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate Crystals

I crushed it this season with organics, good soil prep and three topdressings with lots of water and sun. I used a little super triple phos also.

I tilled in lime, gypsum and green and animal compost into native soil, raked up mounds, then mixed in the other amendments.

july 1

aug 17

sept 25

oct 5

my hot mix that I used in the potted plants when I up potted them before flower was

15 gallons old coots mix
7 gallons wood chip compost about 7 years old
5 gallons steer manure compost
7 gallons perlite
1 gallon worm castings
10 cups chicken manure pellets
3 cups bone meal
4 cups gypsum
2.5 cups kelp
2.5 cups rock phosphate
2 cups alfalfa meal or pellets
1 gallon dried clay and sediment harvested from my pond