Why don't landraces suffer from inbreeding depression?

[hoosierdaddy]

IME, landrace pot suffers/gains from genetic flaws/attributes from inbreeding just as it does when manipulated by man. How do we suppose the species culls the crap and gets better?
Of course, better to the plant, may not be better to the smoker. That is why we learn natures secrets and use them to our advantage.

And I must be totally blunt and honest...as if I'm ever not...
If I see one more person start waxing about the poor cannabis genetic pool and the harm that man is doing to it, I think I'll hurl. Get a grip folks, and do some real heavy thinking about what you're hung up on there...
I mean, think about it...just what harm can come from what we do? None. Plain and simple. What good can come from man manipulating herb, even if it's the work of bozo's? Lots.

When pot starts looking like it's gonna be eradicated globally, then start to worry about the gene pool.

We've got the shit doing what we want, how we want it, and when we want it. Just as nature intended for us as the caretakers of the earth.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Examples of fine feral cannabis...
Highland Colombian
Morrocan
Hindu Kush
Indian

But when it gets to ditchweed you may have a point... not good to smoke yet but give it a few hundred years... it did derive from hemp but doesn't resemble it very closely anymore. Perhaps time will tell.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Ditchweed sure looks like pot to me. And much of it will get you high too. Why? Because of man and the evil pollen he lets fly in the forest. Damn his hide!

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I second that point... I've lost a few good crops to loose pollinations

 

[ocean99]

I think someone needs to learn the word "cultivar" and think about the way it may apply to cannabis.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

I think man has bettered cannabis I'm just not going to say that we've done so without making mistakes. I don't think that man is infallible and I'm not partial to the idea that we are doing exactly what nature wanted us to do... however, I will say that there isn't a landrace strain that averages twenty percent THC... that said, I want some twenty percent nonseeded weed when I puff. Breeding is a different animal altogether. I think we like having cows engineered our way. I think we like having bigass steaks and really good herb... so enjoy it!!!

Just don't think it was as deserved as it was earned and never think that it hasn't gone wrong.

 

[NOYB]

Just thinking about what I've read on breeding today and it occurred to me that "landrace" strains, by definition, are inbred, so why would after so many generations these strains not lose vigor and whatnat?

Because...

Also many different mothers and fathers are used maybe 100s - so there are still unique variations that give enough hybrid vigour compared to an inbred line by a breeder who may only use 1 mother in a line of seeds.

But add 'Only the strong survive' but really better to say, I think, the ones best suited for a particular enviro take over so strong in one place may get 'weeded out' in another geographic location so different 'strong' ones will be dominant.

Vigor is lost when a breeder selects 1 fem and 1 male to make beans and so on in subsequent generations. A breeder friend told me like in the F15 or so area you'll start to see bottlenecking IF you started with P1's from different lines but also the quality of the parents selected in each generation matters and that goes back to the skill of the breeder. When you backcross you dramatically accelerate the bottlenecking process.

Examples of fine feral cannabis...

LOL...yup...all the 'great' strains we have today come from feral cannabis. When I was a kid all the weed and hash I smoked was basically feral cannabis.

 

[Mr. Stinky]

your list of "feral cannabis" is all man made chief. our ancestors bred every one of them. along with everything else you use and eat every day. todays weed looks nothing like what it was created from. same as all the other creations of man throughout thousands of years going far back before any histories were kept. to say nature created any of these plants we survive on today, shows your level of knowledge on the subject just because something grows in the wild today does not mean its au-naturale. many of mans creations can be found growing in ditches and forgotten fields all over the planet. your hatred for todays society and modern man shouldnt be applied to any humans living before about 1850.

 

[Weedninja]

Examples of fine feral cannabis...
Highland Colombian
Morrocan
Hindu Kush
Indian

But when it gets to ditchweed you may have a point... not good to smoke yet but give it a few hundred years... it did derive from hemp but doesn't resemble it very closely anymore. Perhaps time will tell.

Those are all examples of weed that was intensely selected by man. Probably the only Cannabis that's even close to feral that ever reaches an international market is wild Nepalese, and even that is a.) semi-domesticated and b.)has been made into hash, to increase potency.

Any ditchweed that's even moderately potent is the exception to the rule, and only occurs where conditions favor it; ie a tropical climate.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

your list of "feral cannabis" is all man made chief. our ancestors bred every one of them. along with everything else you use and eat every day. todays weed looks nothing like what it was created from. same as all the other creations of man throughout thousands of years going far back before any histories were kept. to say nature created any of these plants we survive on today, shows your level of knowledge on the subject just because something grows in the wild today does not mean its au-naturale. many of mans creations can be found growing in ditches and forgotten fields all over the planet. your hatred for todays society and modern man shouldnt be applied to any humans living before about 1850.

Hmm.. so indica and sativa are different because they've always been bred that way? I have no hatred for man or society. I say nature created plants we survive on today... we have simply altered them in our ways... different ways that nature would not have necessarily taken. Pot was born before man wanted it. Corn was around before we made it huge. These were not "creations of man". We found things on this earth we did not bring them here... show your level of knowledge on the subject... and stop calling me chief

 

[Asiatica]

Good information and discussion.

 

[OjoRojo420]

It is a true disgrace that still today adequate field research can't be done because of wars, prohibition and greed. Future generations will judge this sad age as filled with ignorance, fear and pain. So much to learn from this Sweet Herb; left for our bodily healing and solace of the soul.

 

[NOYB]

Those are all examples of weed that was intensely selected by man.

Well...one thing I remember about Moroccan is from an article I read waaaaay back...think it was High Times in the late 70's. In Spain they were gauging the Moroccan crop by the amount of pollen they were sampling from the air and were expecting a bumper crop. With all that pollen flying around you have a gazillion different males pollinating everything in sight. Don't know how something like that can be 'intensely selected'.

While maybe feral was not the best choice to use in describing things for sure multiple different parents are used in a given select region...whether by accident or on purpose. I remember reading in Amsterdam about some breeders complaining about rogue pollinations due to all the males peeps had in the area...no way to control that stuff out in the open.

 

[Weedninja]

I'm willing to concede that Moroccan is the worst example of "intense selection" in that list of strains.....but at one point, before it became a major cash crop, I have no doubt that the finest individuals were selected for as Cannabis made its way along the Arabic trade routes.

Just to clarify the point I'm trying to make: Its the nature of the Cannabis plant to revert to a lower potency state if left on its own, especially in the temperate zone. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but generally, human interference is necessary to maintain high THC levels. Can you guys agree with that?

 

[Tennessee]

im sure it was bred orginally for its seed ...

 

[NOYB]

Can you guys agree with that?

Does anybody ever really agree with anything on the forums...LOL. Honestly I don't know enough about all this. Best I can do is ask a breeder friend cause he has worked with a lot of landrace stock over the years and a lot of info I have is from chats with him. He's gotten stuff from the heart of the Viet jungle through a relative and was growing wild (feral). For breeding purposes he said something like 1 out of 10 fems was uber potent while only like 1 out of 20 Thai's are like that. I definitely agree that it takes human manipulation to maintain genetics at their highest potential for potency on average in a seed generation but for sure in the wild you will find very potent plants even when they look like all the others in that area. Another thing I've been told is using pure landrace stock in a hybrid is a way to really kick up potency if you have selected the correct parent.

While in a way guessing I just don't understand how old farmers had the ability to breed for potency like we can today by isolating single fems and males, checking offspring, etc. I get the trade route thing but even there seeds only traveled so far. Anytime you have multiple fems and males the strain will homgoenize after about 5 years.

 

[yoss33]

Landraces do not suffer from inbreeding depression because they are not inbred.
To inbreed means to cross individuals with very close genotype. A landrace comprises thousands and thousands of plants which share and constantly exchange genes but different individuals from the same landrace contain different sets of the common genepool characteristic for that landrace. This difference allows the landrace to survive in a much wider range of environmental conditions (like alternating dry and wet years).
While inbreeding (with selection for a certain trait, like high THC) looks very tempting, it makes plants to express other "bad" traits much more often because in the process of selection you did not care about these other traits and you unintentionaly selected these bad traits along with the good one you are after. In the long run these bad traits become so bad that the plant becomes unhealthy and less productive.

 

[alpinestar]

Just thinking about what I've read on breeding today and it occurred to me that "landrace" strains, by definition, are inbred, so why would after so many generations these strains not lose vigor and whatnat?

Just wonderin.

large populations

 

[Mr. Stinky]

Hmm.. so indica and sativa are different because they've always been bred that way? I have no hatred for man or society. I say nature created plants we survive on today... we have simply altered them in our ways... different ways that nature would not have necessarily taken. Pot was born before man wanted it. Corn was around before we made it huge. These were not "creations of man". We found things on this earth we did not bring them here... show your level of knowledge on the subject... and stop calling me chief

you think we just made corn bigger? that might be the worst understatement that has ever been spoken. like saying the nuclear bomb makes a "strange popping sound", or the sun is "warm to the touch" i strongly encourage you to do your own little study on mankinds influence on plants. i have. 100's of generations over many thousands of years selected the best plants to breed the following years stock. without these plants, our species would not have progressed from loincloths and sticks. literally. we owe our existence to these plants and our ancestors in every way. and they may well owe their existence to their ancestors brilliance. we have no idea what took place in human history before the last ice age ended 10,000 years ago. and almost no idea about human existence since. 95% guess/5% evidence
http://www.physorg.com/news4301.html
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2005/050526.htm

that should get u started. its a very interesting subject, and one that we all should know about. without knowledge of our past, we will continue to go down this road of self destruction, call it socialism, call it modernization, call it progressivism, whatever you like. we need to learn from the things our ancestors and those previous civilizations did. if we dont, we will be nothing more than a mark in history, as they are now

 

[mean mr.mustard]

you think we just made corn bigger? that might be the worst understatement that has ever been spoken. like saying the nuclear bomb makes a "strange popping sound", or the sun is "warm to the touch"

Yes, yes I do. Do you think we have done anything but make corn bigger? I'm still waiting for an answer to my last question: Is indica so separate from sativa due soley to man's wonderful breeding techniques?

I'm not going to the Department of Agriculture to learn what they have to say about themselves lol.. sorry but I can't.

I think you're not understanding that I think good things have come from breeding; I just don't think the sun shines out of our ass... we routinely fuck things up, ie. your aforementioned nuclear bomb...