Who's Done It? and Do You Have Photos? (Side By Side Experiment)

[Douglas.Curtis]

I'm hoping someone has done this particular experiment, and taken the time to document it with photos and end result information.

Have You Mixed Up Various Strengths of an Organic Soil Mix?
And recorded the results, using the same strain of cannabis, under the same light, at the same time?

Starting with something like Sub-Cool's SuperSoil, has anyone mixed up a batch, then mixed up some with 5% less of each amendment, then mixed up a batch with 10% less of each amendment and possibly 15% less?

Then used clones from the same mum and flowered them all at the same time, under the same lighting and conditions?

I am SO looking forward to photos and end smoke reports, if you have.

Anyone??

Douglas

 

[rykus]

I found whenever I falowed others recommended uses as a per gallon they where a bit strong and produced smaller leaves as I figured the p and k where a bit high for the start.


Never did a side by side but I find going lighter then top dressing gives me the best growth and biggest yields if I can keep up with their appetite through day 21-45... I usually end up supplementing a bit of food on my best runs....

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I found whenever I followed others recommended uses as a per gallon they where a bit strong and produced smaller leaves as I figured the p and k where a bit high for the start.


Never did a side by side but I find going lighter then top dressing gives me the best growth and biggest yields if I can keep up with their appetite through day 21-45... I usually end up supplementing a bit of food on my best runs....

Excellent, that helps.

Here's basically what I'm looking at, my OP needs clarification. I've been looking for information that would explain what I've experienced and seen for years, your post is what I've seen as well.

I came across this study on cannabis and dynamic accumulation. In it I found a very curious sentence that read "High values of Cd accumulation achieved cannot be explained exclusively by passive ion uptake. Immobilization, by binding to the cell walls, is thought to play a minor role (Sanita di Toppi and Gabbrielli 1999)."

I have a very limited jargon list in my dictionary for this, making it difficult to determine the correct search terms. Add to this the limited research in this area (that I've found so far) and this is a bit difficult.

What I gather from this study comes to two possible actions.

1. Cannabis uptakes elements outside the passive ionic uptake used for organic nutrition.

2. Cannabis has the ability to bind elements to the cell walls.

These two concepts fully explain what I've slowly become aware of for a few years now. Essentially, cannabis will absorb more elements than "fine smoking" quality requires, and it packs (at least some types of) excess elements into new growth (by binding to cell walls), where it cannot be 'flushed' or 'faded' out.

What I would like to know are two things as well:

1. What elements can/does cannabis absorb more than quality requires.
2. How does one set up an amended organic mix to both feed through passive ionic uptake, while avoiding excess availability of elements cannabis absorbs outside of that function?

Is there anyone here who knows what searches would turn up useful results? Again, has anyone tried the experiment and photographed it, all with the same genetics?

Douglas

 

[Coughie]

What you're talking about here, if I'm understanding it correctly.. would correlate better to the use of hemp as a means of cleaning up contaminants in the soil - phytoremediation.

Being a dynamic accumulator/phytoremediator, it's in cannabis' nature to soak up whatever it can from whatever it can reach... Which explains some words of caution that I've read over the years about being careful where you grow out doors because if you happen to plant a plant in a place where.. say.. someone changed their oil and dumped it on the ground, for 20 years... That contaminant is going to make its way into the plant itself, and it's just in the nature of the plant.

To your second question, it gets tricky.. I don't think its possible, quite honestly. True organic soil, by rules of nature, essentially, requires less inputs over time (topdressings), provided the CEC is high enough to always hold enough ionic nutrients within the soil for proper plant growth.

If you've mixed the soil yourself, from compost you made yourself, crafted from plants that you're sure grew in clean places to begin with... You'll limit the amount of contaminants that the plants can uptake, but that wont change the inherent nature of the plants themselves, that tries to uptake whatever it can.

Attempting to limit excess availability of nutrition and/or contaminants, is going to limit something that the plant actually needs, creating stresses on the plant and causing more issues than its worth..

This is all my two pennies, but it seems as if you're trying to "get around" the inherent nature of both the plant and the soil...

The only way I truly know how to do that, which personally makes me sick, but I'm adding it because its all I can drum-up at this point, is to do something like a hydroponics system where you play God and give the plant what it needs, when it needs it..

But then you're stuck with a new problem, of how do you make sure that the hydroponics nutrients dont contain contaminants and/or excessive *something* that the plant will uptake anyway, because that's the nature of the plant itself..



But this is why they... before 'they' stuck their heads in the sand.... used to use hemp to clean contaminated fields / spills / hazardous wastes / etc.. It's the nature of the plant, to clean the soil..

 

[Avinash.miles]

how do you determine what cannabis has uptaked and at what levels?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

To your second question, it gets tricky.. I don't think its possible, quite honestly. True organic soil, by rules of nature, essentially, requires less inputs over time (topdressings), provided the CEC is high enough to always hold enough ionic nutrients within the soil for proper plant growth.

So, along those same lines of thought comes the phytoremediation angle you mentioned.

What you're talking about here, if I'm understanding it correctly.. would correlate better to the use of hemp as a means of cleaning up contaminants in the soil - phytoremediation.

When I went back to the basics of Phytoremediation I found a number of methods "other than passive ionic uptake" which are also responsible for various elements ending up in plants. Here's the basics from wikipedia

Various phytoremediation processes
Phytoremediation process

A range of processes mediated by plants or algae are useful in treating environmental problems:[4][5]

Phytosequestration – Phytochemical complexation in the root zone, reduce the fraction of the contaminant that is bioavailable. Transport protein inhibition on the root membrane-preventing contaminants from entering the plant. Vacuolar storage in the root cells: contaminants can be sequestered into the vacuoles of root cells.
Phytoextraction – uptake and concentration of substances from the environment into the plant biomass.
Phytostabilization – reducing the mobility of substances in the environment, for example, by limiting the leaching of substances from the soil.
Phytotransformation – chemical modification of environmental substances as a direct result of plant metabolism, often resulting in their inactivation, degradation (phytodegradation), or immobilization (phytostabilization).
Phytostimulation – enhancement of soil microbial activity for the degradation of contaminants, typically by organisms that associate with roots. This process is also known as rhizosphere degradation. Phytostimulation can also involve aquatic plants supporting active populations of microbial degraders, as in the stimulation of atrazine degradation by hornwort.[6]
Phytovolatilization – removal of substances from soil or water with release into the air, sometimes as a result of phytotransformation to more volatile and/or less polluting substances.
Rhizofiltration – filtering water through a mass of roots to remove toxic substances or excess nutrients. The pollutants remain absorbed in or adsorbed to the roots.
Biological hydraulic containment – Some plants, like poplars, draws water upwards through the soil into the roots and out through the plant decreases the movement of soluble contaminants downwards, deeper into the site and into the groundwater.[7]

So now I want to know if there are any micro or macro elements cannabis requires, which are also using additional channels of uptake. I would so love to read studies on this type of data. I too believe only an organic tea type environment would be the way to deal with this. I'm simply blown away that I found a study pointing to the possibility I'm actually correct on this. It really does match what I've seen over the years.

Douglas

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

how do you determine what cannabis has uptaked and at what levels?

The only way I know is through lab tests. Rudimentary methods would be the experiment I originally posted, flowering in the same environment with varying levels of amendments.

This will only produce observational data. Really need to lab test the end results and go from there? We need a research lab to open up where I can get a job. lol

 

[Coughie]

how do you determine what cannabis has uptaked and at what levels?

Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.) was used to examine its capability as a renewable resource to decontaminate heavy metal polluted soils. The influence of heavy metals on the fibre quality was of special interest. Determination of heavy metal content was carried out by means of atomic absorption spectroscopy (AAS). Four different parts of the plant were examined: seeds, leaves, fibres and hurds. In each case, the concentration relation was Ni>Pb>Cd. However, the heavy metal accumulation in the different parts of the plant was extremely different. All parts of hemp plants contain heavy metals and this is why their use as a commercially utilisable plant material is limited. We found that the highest concentrations of all examined metals were accumulated in the leaves. In this field trial, hemp showed a phytoremediation potential of 126 g Cd (ha vegetation period)−1. We tested the fibre quality by measuring the pure fibre content of the stems and the fibre properties after mechanical separation. In addition, the fibre fineness was examined using airflow systems and image analysis. The strength was measured by testing single fibre bundles with a free clamping distance of 3.2 mm using a universal testing device. Finally, we compared the results from the stems and fibres from trials on heavy metal polluted ground with hemp stems and fibres from non-polluted ground. Since there was no comparable unpolluted area near the polluted one, reference values were taken from an area quite far away and subsequently with a different soil composition and also exposure to different meteorological conditions. Thus, the observed differences are only partially caused by the heavy metal contamination.

Link

 

[Coughie]

So now I want to know if there are any micro or macro elements cannabis requires, which are also using additional channels of uptake.

We would have to define these channels more specifically than "not through ionic exchange"

From Wikipedia:

At least 17 elements are known to be essential nutrients for plants. In relatively large amounts, the soil supplies nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, magnesium, and sulfur; these are often called the macronutrients. In relatively small amounts, the soil supplies iron, manganese, boron, molybdenum, copper, zinc, chlorine, and cobalt, the so-called micronutrients. Nutrients must be available not only in sufficient amounts but also in appropriate ratios.

Plants take up essential elements from the soil through their roots and from the air (mainly consisting of nitrogen and oxygen) through their leaves. Nutrient uptake in the soil is achieved by cation exchange, wherein root hairs pump hydrogen ions (H+) into the soil through proton pumps. These hydrogen ions displace cations attached to negatively charged soil particles so that the cations are available for uptake by the root. In the leaves, stomata open to take in carbon dioxide and expel oxygen. The carbon dioxide molecules are used as the carbon source in photosynthesis.


The root, especially the root hair, is the essential organ for the uptake of nutrients. The structure and architecture of the root can alter the rate of nutrient uptake. Nutrient ions are transported to the center of the root, the stele in order for the nutrients to reach the conducting tissues, xylem and phloem.[5] The Casparian strip, a cell wall outside the stele but within the root, prevents passive flow of water and nutrients, helping to regulate the uptake of nutrients and water.[5] Xylem moves water and inorganic molecules within the plant and phloem accounts for organic molecule transportation. Water potential plays a key role in a plant's nutrient uptake. If the water potential is more negative within the plant than the surrounding soils, the nutrients will move from the region of higher solute concentration—in the soil—to the area of lower solute concentration - in the plant.

There are three fundamental ways plants uptake nutrients through the root:

1. Simple diffusion occurs when a nonpolar molecule, such as O2, CO2, and NH3 follows a concentration gradient, moving passively through the cell lipid bilayer membrane without the use of transport proteins.
2. Facilitated diffusion is the rapid movement of solutes or ions following a concentration gradient, facilitated by transport proteins.
3. Active transport is the uptake by cells of ions or molecules against a concentration gradient; this requires an energy source, usually ATP, to power molecular pumps that move the ions or molecules through the membrane.[5]

I'm not attempting to pretend like I "know it all", I simply enjoy these conversations that are deeper than 'Check out my Cookies!!'

Hopefully I'm contributing useful content~

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Any movement on this is good, I appreciate your input.

I think Phytoextraction, through simple diffusion might be the most likely culprit in hydro. I am also not educated enough on organics to say anything about the other two.

Though it mainly deals with hemp, the plants should behave nearly the same. Here's an interesting article from sensi seeds.

 

[Avinash.miles]

The only way I know is through lab tests. Rudimentary methods would be the experiment I originally posted, flowering in the same environment with varying levels of amendments.

This will only produce observational data. Really need to lab test the end results and go from there? We need a research lab to open up where I can get a job. lol

yhea, like... WHAT lab? university perhaps if you know someone...
the only place i know that might do this kind of testing for "just anyone" would be the Rodale institute. they are the only place i was able to find that would test for glycosphate.
i've asked alot of people exactly WHAT TEST from WHAT LAB would be neccessary to tell how "pure" cannabis is; the most common answer I've gotten is "that's a good question"....

also, i'm willing to bet that my organic soil has lower levels of things like Arsenic and Cadmium than many hydro nutrient levels, like in maxibloom: http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/FertDB/prodinfo.aspx?pname=3592

also,
it begs to be noted that there are bio-remediating bacteria that either break down hydrocarbons and salts OR bind them to their cells making them unavailable to the plants.
Ruedopsuedomonas Palustris is one of these bacteria, typically referred to as "purple non sulfur bacteria" - I've been applying them regularly to both my indoor soil beds AND my my outdoor.

 

[Mikell]

Google Scholar.

Specific searches without the correct terminology is difficult.

It seems obvious, but looking up the definition of each word is key. You will gain a proficiency in Latin and Greek derived suffix/prefix. And become a ruthless bore to all who know ye.

Learning to use IC properly takes a bit of knack. The site search feature is functionally unuseable. Google with the string site:icmag.com is more efficient.

site:*.edu is another gooder. Use it to remove cannabis forums from search results. The real dope isn't here.

GW Pharmaceuticals has much research on the biology, extraction and consumption of cannabis. Say what you want (a general comment) about GW, they are a gold mine of information.

And above all, nothing worth learning is served on a silver platter. You have to get neck deep in the shit and dig for China.

Good luck.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

What's maddening is not being able to find studies you've found earlier. Having this issue at the moment with another subject as well. 2hrs of papers (thanks for the *.edu tip, helps immensely) and still have yet to find what I remember reading. Thinking it might not have been on an .edu site. lol

I know when I find the mechanism of transport and the binding to cell info, I'm going to say "Duh" or something along those lines. I need to get in the habit of saving links/docs when I do research.

Douglas

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

yhea, like... WHAT lab? university perhaps if you know someone...
the only place i know that might do this kind of testing for "just anyone" would be the Rodale institute. they are the only place i was able to find that would test for glycosphate.
i've asked alot of people exactly WHAT TEST from WHAT LAB would be neccessary to tell how "pure" cannabis is; the most common answer I've gotten is "that's a good question"....

Wherever it's done, I'd like to see the results for:

All Supplied Micro/Macro Elements
Silica/Silicon (specifically)
Terpenes Identification
Terpene production levels
Cannabinoids Identification
Cannabinoid production levels

I'm sure I missed something obvious, can anyone think of something?

 

[Avinash.miles]

Wherever it's done, I'd like to see the results for:

All Supplied Micro/Macro Elements
Silica/Silicon (specifically)
Terpenes Identification
Terpene production levels
Cannabinoids Identification
Cannabinoid production levels

I'm sure I missed something obvious, can anyone think of something?

i'd like to know some of the same info as on the fertilizers; if any of those heavy metals have become stored in cell walls of the smoking parts of the plant

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

i'd like to know some of the same info as on the fertilizers; if any of those heavy metals have become stored in cell walls of the smoking parts of the plant

That's one of the main points I want to see as well.

I'm told that cannabis does not store unconverted elements in new growth. I totally and completely disagree with being told that, so the evidence it binds metals to cell walls is interesting.

Finding out this behavior extends to some or all macro/micro elements would be icing on the cake. I believe cannabis uses this binding mechanism to get excess elements out of the way.

 

[ashna]

Wherever it's done, I'd like to see the results for:

All Supplied Micro/Macro Elements
Silica/Silicon (specifically)
Terpenes Identification
Terpene production levels
Cannabinoids Identification
Cannabinoid production levels

It seems to me like there are plenty of labs that will do terpene and cannabinoid testing. There's no reason you need to get all of your numbers from one test. You can submit one sample for terpene testing, and another sample to a different lab for heavy metal testing etc.

You don't necessarily have to use the same methods as in the papers, if there is a less reliable but much cheaper option? I don't know what that might be.

I would recommend getting a soil test to match whatever test you find for the plant material, so you can confirm what was there to absorb in the first place.

Sub'd

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Good points. Ty!