When are F2s better than the orginal?

[Bacchus]

Why would the f2s of a strain not be at least as good as their parents?

After running a pack of 10 seads from of a strain, could the best(after clonning and smoke test) male and female produce F2s that are better than the orginal stain?

If 10 plants are not enough, how big of a population would you need to improve the strain?

 

[Guest]

i dont think that it wouldn't be as good, just not as uniform as f1's. if you are looking for a pheno of one of the parent plants, i think f2's would be better. for example, i have some big buddha cheese f2's. i think that i will be able to find a plant in these very close to the original cheese clone. i would much rather have these than the f1's, honestly.
you can make f2's out of a pack of 10 (ive done it, helps save money for me in the long run), but i think the general consensus is that to make the best f2's possible, you need to sort through at least a couple of packs to find the best male and female possible.

 

[imnotcrazy]

Not too sure but I do know you need many different moms/dads to stabilize something. You can't just take the best 2 specimins and get the best results out the door. It's more like a crap shoot with recessives showing up and the like. Like rez said in his definitive kush lines thread he is using 3-5 males chosen through excessive observations through multiple flowering cycles to choose only the best for the Kush Lines

 

[Closet Funk]

I would say maybe at least 100 plants or so for decent breeding work. Alot of us including I can't grow that much so we got to stick to what we got. Selection is key no matter how many plants.

 

[Raco]

#1:Are the parents true F1 stock?
I mean P1 x P2 =F1,and F1 x F1=F2
if so,there should be a few individuals in the F2 that are better than the F1
5% maybe?

 

[Raco]

#2:To make a "true" F1 hybrid you need a female and a male of two unrelated lines.Those parents are homozygous for most traits.
I like to make crosses with Deep Chunk.I consider the DC and the PTK as P1´s
Not mongrels,as most of commercial "strains"
2nd gen. cuttings of DC and PTK,day 7 of 12/12:
PTK




DC





Real "KUSH" strains^^^

 

[Bacchus]

Raco- how about a so called "IBL". What would the offspring be called and could they be better than the orginal IBLs through a large selection process? We are playing with a large number plants of an IBL listed strain and are looking at making a large number of offspring for the medical community. We do NOT want go backwards from the orginal parents in strength or vigor.

 

[Guest]

We do NOT want go backwards from the orginal parents in strength or vigor.

IBL is what you are lookin for in your P1s. in my limited experience, i have found the best plants in the F2 and further.

F1s are for the growin community, with good parents, they display a nice population, but dont display the variety within the line you created. to observe a complete (or close) example of your cross, to find the best, you have to go a few gens, and of course grow some numbers.

the only way you will go backwards is through poor selection, and the plants combinin ability, it may just end up bein a poor combination through no fault of your own.

you should get a decent idea of how the cross is gonna work out by lookin through the F1s. if your not impressed, then its time to try another approach.

workin with unproven males is a crap shoot, thats the bitch with breedin, doin the work with the males, when your choosin a male outta the F1s to continue on with, how do ya know if there any good? your better off runnin a few males across a selected cut, and doin a few test batches of that matin, see which male is throwin what ya want.

 

[Raco]

"Reeferman did an outstanding job with the love potion....it is the new C99 in my book"
Bacchus,
from what I´ve seen,the LP male that you used was very good,and very dominant.In fact,I ´ve found difficult to tell the difference between the LP f2´s and the Cascadia (ATW x the same LP male).
The C99 has great GCA....another exanple is the Bluedancer that you have shared with me long time ago.It´s made of 1/2 Blueberry and the other half is Killer Queen(G13 x C99)...OK,Lonestar told me that C99 is the principal figure in Bluedancer...guess why?:wink:...and the TRC Blueberry comes from DJ´s BB,"inbred" further...like an f3 from the original release,which is already considered an IBL....
I´s say that many of the commonly accepted as IBL´s,can´t be inbred further(let´s say f8-9-10),but if you´re doing that,parental stock must be very carefully chosen.
And is just curious that (in this case) both LP and Bluedancer has 1/4 of"G13" in them.I´m not going to argue the G13 thing,but even if the G used in both cases was not the real deal G,but Nevil´s G13/NL hybrid,it still retains a considerable amount of hybrid vigour and make good hybrids.
Well,sorry about the drift...I just realized that I have to re-read the posts above...stop my ramble if you think that I´m saying nonsenses,please...

 

[Bacchus]

Good post Mr.Lorouix...

Raco....so with further combining the IBL parents, we will loose even more hybrid vigor. I can follow that. It appears that what was purchased as an IBl is showing a large variety of phenotypes. Which is not what we expected. But, can work to our advantage.

 

[Cosmic Toker]

A true IBL should breed true and have very few phenotypes, it sad to see the way "breeders" now a days use the term IBL....I really doubt you guys could name a true IBL that was breed indoors

 

[nycnoob]

To be honest this is one of the few threads that I see has lots of real Information... Damn Raco do you seem to know it...(= I can't really remember other threads with great information, but they are out there...

Nice post Mr Lerouix and Raco...

If raco says what he means about your Cascadia, in the fact that the LPf2 and Cascadia, damn that must be some dominant parent.. now lets see the LPf2 and DC...dominate contest (=... Mayb I should get my hands on them..(=

 

[humboldthippy#1]

Each individual plant is a unique phenotype, for a plant to be considered an inbred line I believe that there should be little to no variability(uniform vigor resin production maturation times smells tastes) in the progeny of a "large" population of seed the definition of large is also something which is a bit arbitrary in this argument as facility and more importantly feasability must be taken in to account if I was breeding professionally and looking to release inbred stable hybrids DJ's blueberry is an example as is Seed Bank's original NL and SK1 I would want to choose from about 150 seeds for each generation hoping to get an even MF ratio and working from there

Also what a breeder chooses to select for is important as some hybrids are bred to be stable for smoke characteristics like buzz taste and aroma others for growth characteristics and visual traits would a truly stable hybrid be the union of a line selected for smoke and one for visual stability but of the same lineage then further crossed and line bred to have uniform smoke and visual characteristics?

In a cross that is dominated by one parent I believe it is possible to find the gem in the line in the F2s and beyond as with each generation the dominance of the parent gene becomes less and less and the recombiant genes produce the possibility of fresh new super plants

oops i think i put in more than 2 cents.

 

[Closet Funk]

Making a true F1 seedline with two IBL parents would be the way to make some nice hybrids. I plan on doing some IBL crossing in the future. It is going to interesting to see what IBL's are most dominant in the crosses.

 

[Cosmic Toker]

^^Where are you going to find true IBL's...?

 

[Closet Funk]

^^Where are you going to find true IBL's...?

Well from what I know if it has IBL beside it I would imagine it's an IBL. Why would a breeder label it as a IBL and it not being one? That would be wrong. I'll find out when I grow them.

Kodiak Gold IBL
Hawaiian Sativa IBL
Deep Chunk IBL

 

[Raco]

here´s ConChi
Congo x Chitral f2
Those who can handle spanish will find excellent breeding info here:
http://www.cannabiscafe.net/foros/showthread.php?t=65306

 

[REZDOG]

1) A true IBL should breed true and have very few phenotypes,


2) it sad to see the way "breeders" now a days use the term IBL....


3) I really doubt you guys could name a true IBL that was breed indoors

1) Correct.

2) True,ever since I released,after YEARS of VERY SELECTIVE inbreeding,The Sour Diesel IBL,I noticed that a few other shops quickly started identifying some of their less-worked releases as 'IBLs'. That,imo,is a crock of shite/jumping on the bandwagon, and is bad for the consumer,and the community,at-large.

3) Simple.
The Sour Diesel IBL. :smile:
(I beleive Nebu's got some true inbred lines,as well-)


Cheers!

..

 

[Cosmic Toker]

1) Correct

But didn't you say, "SD IBL was designed to produce an inferior product when crossed to itself"

2) True,ever since I released,after YEARS of VERY SELECTIVE inbreeding

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it take you just under two and a half years after the initial outcross using small populations indoors & then after the final pollination the seeds were sold before the beans were ever grew out and tested

To call something an IBL you need to grow out large populations to see how stable it is and breed it to see if it breeds true and only then can it be given an IBL tag.

When I asked Ben Dronkers about people taking clone onlys and outcrossing them and shortly after claiming IBL's he just rolled his eyes

3) Simple.

The school I come from tells me an IBL can really only be breed outdoors for many reasons and can take a life time to breed one true IBL...I would say out of the people I see growing here at ICmag Tom Hill would be the furthest along in his work off making an IBL

 

[Guest]

Rez - 3 - Who's Nebu?