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What should I know about installing a subpanel?

00420

full time daddy
Veteran
This is a general guideline about the installation of a sub-panel in a remote building, hopefully it will contain the information you need. At the bottom will be a list of items you can omit if the sub-panel will be located in the same building as your service entrance. Most of the requirements would apply to any structure, but I have aimed this at installations on residential property.


If your installation is subject to inspection, you should talk to your local code enforcement official prior to starting work.

Wire - Type and size

You can use underground cable. The following capacities apply for copper cables:


Cable ampacities - 60C temperature rating

#10 - 30 amps

#8 - 40 amps

#6 - 55 amps (can be protected at 60 amps)

#4 - 70 amps

#2 - 95 amps (can be protected at 100 amps)

If you elect to use cable, it will need to be protected from damage if it emerges from the ground on the exterior side of a building. This protection can be rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit or schedule 80 PVC. The protection must extend from the bottom of the trench to the height of 8' above grade, or where the cable enters the building, whichever is less.


The preferred method is to run PVC conduit with individual conductors. The minimum size should be 1 1/4", as this will allow you to run up to a 100 amp feeder. The following capacities are for copper conductors with THWN, THW or XHHW insulation:


Individual conductor ampacities - 75C temperature rating

#10 - 30 amps

#8 - 50 amps

#6 - 65 amps (can be protected at 70 amps)

#4 - 85 amps (can be protected at 90 amps for outbuildings. If this sub-panel is in a dwelling #4 may be good for 100 amps - see notes below)

#3 - 100 amps

Please see the notes at the end regarding wire ampacities and temperatures!

Number of conductors needed

For various reasons, it is best to run 4 conductors. This would be two 'hots', one grounded conductor (neutral) and one equipment ground (bare or green).


Depth of trench

For cable, you will need 24" of cover. For PVC conduit, you will need 18" of cover.


While you have your trench open, you should put in at least one spare conduit (3/4" minimum size) for future use. It would be a shame to dig up your yard again just to run a phone line.


Sub-panel main breaker

At your remote building, your sub-panel must have a main breaker if there will be more than six breakers used in your panel. It is recommended to put in a main breaker even if only a couple of circuits will be used initially. If the main breaker is to be back-fed, it must be held in place by a screw or clip that will prevent it from being unplugged by hand. You can use a 100 amp breaker even if the size of the feeder circuit is less, however, check the wire range allowed for the connection to the breaker to make sure that the wire size you are using is within the acceptable range for that particular breaker.


Grounding and bonding of the sub-panel

At the sub-panel there must be no connection between the neutral bus bar and the equipment ground bus bar or the neutral bus bar and the sheet metal of the breaker box. You may need to purchase an additional bus bar for the equipment ground since many panels, especially those that come with a main breaker, do not come equipped with one. If the panel comes with a bonding screw or bonding strap, do not install it to the neutral. Depending on the brand of panel, you may need it to connect the ground bus to the sheet metal enclosure.


At the remote building, you will need to drive two eight-foot ground rods located a minimum of six feet from each other and connect them to the equipment ground bus using #6 copper wire. The easiest way is to make one continuous run without cutting the wire. The rods must be driven in flush or below grade. The ground rod clamps must be listed for direct burial. It will say so on the clamp or look for the letters "DB". If you have any metal piping (except gas lines) in the remote building, you must bond it to the equipment ground bar, use #6 wire. If the connection is to a metal water line, the connection should be within the first 5 feet of where the water line enters the building. All connections must remain accessible, so if the connection will end up inside a wall, you must provide an access plate.


I realize that some of the things I've included exceed the code minimum, but this is an attempt to make a "one size fits all" response without getting into a really long discussion.


For a sub-panel in the same dwelling there is no need for additional ground rods or connections to metal piping. Also, no need for a main breaker in the sub-panel, regardless of the number of circuits. Unless you are running metal conduit, you will need to run a 4 wire feeder.


Wire ampacity notes

If you are installing a sub-panel in your house, the ampacity of #4 copper or #2 aluminum is 100 amps as determined by a special table in the code. However, in some jurisdicitons, there is a very strict interpretation of this table and these ampacities would not be allowed for a sub-panel in your house. If you aren't sure, ask your inspector if he will allow the ampacities shown in table 310-15(B)(6) or go up one size wire to #3 copper or #1 aluminum.


The current carrying capacity of an insulated conductor is related to the type of insulation. Modern insulation allows conductors to be operated at higher current levels which generate more heat. There is a problem if you install the modern conductors into an older service panel as the higher temperatures could damage the older types of insulation. If your home was wired prior to 1985, you may have conductors with a lower rated insulation. If you have an older home or aren't sure, to be on the safe side, use the wire capacity table above that deals with cables. The larger conductors that you will use will now be in the same temperature class as the older styles of insulation.


Circuit breaker notes

Circuit breakers and panelboards also have a temperature rating. Most modern circuit breakers will be marked 60/75 C. This means that this circuit breaker can be used with wire being operated at its 75 degree C rating without doing damage to the circuit breaker.


However (there always seems to be one of those), the entire panel must be listed for use at that temperature. Older panels will not have the higher temperature rating. In order to find out if your existing panel is rated for 75 degree ampacities, you will need to read all of those fine print labels. For us older guys, that means break out the magnifying glass. You cannot just stick a new circuit breaker into an old panel and assume that it will be safe.


During your exploration of all the fine print, you should be looking for some indication that 75 degree wire can be used at its full temperature rating. What you're hoping to see is a reference to 60/75C for conductor sizes #14 to #1 AWG. If you don't see the 75 degree listing, then the wire must be operated at the 60 degree rating, therefore use the table above for cables to select the correct wire size.

BE safe.........
 
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bartender187

Bakin in da Sun
Veteran
thanks for the info, would like to know what the other gurus think about this info, thorodee, mtf-sandman, ballastman... etc.

Also, remember reading somewhere that there is basically two types of panel boxes, couldn't dig of the info now that I need it. Looking to build a 50amp panel box, should I be looking for a particular type of box. Some of the load centers/panel/breaker boxes on ebay do not come with a ground bar, could I just pick one up at home depot? As long as I get a 120/240v 1-phase 3-wire box doesnt it matter the brand/breaker types? Any thoughts or suggestions are welcomed.

Will 4# cable gauge suffice for a 50amp box? What is the different between flush mount vs surface mount boxes?

thanks,
bartender187
 
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G

Guest

Bartender if you plan to run 120V circuits,you'll need a 120/240V single phase subpanel,but it must be fed with 4 wire not 3 wire,a neutral is necessry.I prefer sq.D metering equiptment with cutler hammer second,stay away from Challenger,GTE,ITT,general electric,westinghouse unless you cant find/afford sq. D or CH(cutler hammer not challenger!).Thats all good info,especially making sure there is no continuity between the neutral and ground bus at the subpanel.At the service(main panel)The neutral and ground basically become one,but only at the service.If they become one at the subpanel,the ground becomes energized back to the service,remember the neutral is a current carrying conductor.As for the two "types" of panelboxes I think you're referring to MB and ML panels.MB or main breaker panels contain a breaker at the top or bottom of the panel that de-energizes all branch circuits in that panel.A ML or main lug panel doesnt contain a main breaker,only the breakers controlling the branch circuits.Since all systems must contain overcurrent devices,the OC for a ML panel is normally in the form of a fused disconnect located between the meter and the service(main panel).This disconnect will contain two fuses,one for each leg of the 240V service.If one fuse blows.you lose an entire leg and all the corresponding branch circuits.Yes,you can get a ground bar at HD or lowes if the subpanel doesnt contain one.Remember,the ground bar in a subpanel is in direct contact with the metal can,it has "continuity" with the metal of the panelbox.The neutral MUST be up on insulators and have no "continuity"with either the ground or the metal can.These two MUST be kept seperate at the subpanel.Only at the service(main panel) will they be "bonded".
 
G

Guest

By the way,#4 AWG is wayy to big for 50A panel.Your negating the most pertinent information here,whatchur plan Stan?What will be your total load in amps?Or a rough Idea?Are you planning on running your lights at 120 or 240V?This holds relevence towards amperage used.To size the panel the info is necessary.First determine total load,then determine wire and panel size.That link you posted is of an ML or main lug panel.I wouldnt suggest one unless using a timer like a WH40 with an external on-off lever,you need a suitable means of disconnect.Yanking the plugs out of the box is not suitable means of disconnect lol!!If you use a ML panel,the only way to de-energize it will be from the service or main panel housing the breaker,I dont like that idea and the way the code changes probably isnt legal anymore anyway lol.Like I said,I"D feel safe using the on-off lever on a WH40 timer as my means of disconnect,but again this only disconnects the lighting,not other power that may be fed from the subpanel.I hope I'm being sorta clear,I know without any electrical experience it sounds real fuckin bad lol.Its not,we just need to determine a few things before we move on.
 

bartender187

Bakin in da Sun
Veteran
rgr smilin

Total load 50amps -

Lights will be mainly 240 run off a T103/4, but I own a 600w digital 120v that I would like to be able to use.

heres my plan....

subpanel, 50amp main breaker
30amp feeds the light circuit through a t103/t104 mechanical timer
20amp feeds a 120v circuit for random electronics that need to be on 24hr or their own separate timer

Nah I get you on the need for a disconnect at the subpanel... didnt realize that one wasnt convertible.
 
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G

Guest

Sounds like a good plan,subs come in 30 and 60A,get a 60amp of course.
 
G

Guest

Opps sorry,you'll want to feed that subpanel off a 60A 2 pole breaker from the main panel with 6/3 with ground.You cant exceed 48 total amps on this system.
 

bartender187

Bakin in da Sun
Veteran
Hmm... What happened to Smilin, hope everythin is ok with him. Thanks again for all the help brotha, you take care of yourself.

In researching my two options of either using a main breaker or just goin with a main lug panel... I came across this info....

If you are using a Main Breaker in your sub-panel... it is considered to be backfed and needs to be secured with a fastener.

Here was the intitial question....
1/5/06, 8:41 AM
Gents,

I saw an unusual method of wiring a sub-panel yesterday. The feed from the main panel is wired to the terminals of the 50 amp breaker in the sub-panel and not the normal Bus terminal lugs.

I assume that this is an attempt to create a "main" in a panel that does not have a main breaker attachment. The circuit is also protected by a 50 amp breaker in the Main Panel.

Is this acceptable?

Here was the answer....
Reference: UL Panelboard Marking Guide and Industry Standards




Back-Fed Devices




Plug-in-type overcurrent protection devices or plug-in type main lug assemblies that are back-fed and used to terminate field-installed ungrounded supply conductors shall be secured in place by an additional fastener that requires other than a pull to release the device from the mounting means on the panel.

The backfed breaker should be fastened in place. 384-16 (g)
 
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G

Guest

All that means my friend is to not get a cheap Challenger or GTE subpanel with a "snap on" MB.The main breaker in your subpanel will be a bolt mounted MB I'll tell ya what!Additional fastener?How bout two screws biach we dont do snappy happy grandpappy MB's on this kids watch!O yea everything cool bro,think I got a headache though lol
 
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MTF-Sandman

OG Refugee
Veteran
bartender187 said:
been looking for some specs on the Cutler Hammer CH-16-S breaker box.... I can pick one up for a good deal... Can't seem to find much, this is what I could find. It is a 125amp 120/240v Load Center with 16 Pole Spaces..... Also, found this Square D load center on ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.com/Square-D-100-Am...hZ006QQcategoryZ20596QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

Would either or of these suffice?

thanks for the help,
bartender187

Yeah, that Square D one is a winner...and great quality for the price. If you can get it for the same price as the CH, I'd get it.

4 gauge is more than adequate for a 50a load....6 gauge/3 wire is what 99% of people would use on it. Copper is so insane price wise, I couldn't see spending the extra money for no benefit...unless you plan on stepping up to 8kw or more down the road.

Flush mount boxes are meant to be installed in the home usually...you'll need to cut a hole in the wall large enough for it to fit into. Most folks use surface mount boxes for the simplicity and ease of removal when they're no longer needed. Just mount the panel, timer and outlets on a sheet of plywood and hang it on the wall. When you wanna remove it, disconnect the wire and it can be easily taken down.

A main panel will have a ground bar in it...it is needed if you're planning on running 120v devices.

Your panel plan is pretty solid...you can use more than 50a worth of breakers in the panel as long as your not pulling more than 40a of 240v off of them. It's not uncommon for the total breaker rating within a main panel to exceed the main feed by 2x since they're never all using max load at the same time. You can easily put in a 15a/240v for an AC if needed...as well as a circuit for a dehumidifier.
 

bartender187

Bakin in da Sun
Veteran
Hydropimp- there are a few other threads on this, search BudBunker, his newest 6000w grow is utilizing a 100amp sub-panel... he has pics of his wiring job.

MTF-Sandman - thanks for all the help, this is makin more and more sense.... Most likely will go with a 30amp to feed my T103/T104, then a 15amp 120v for random 120v devices, and a 15amp 240v for my AC... take care everyone, bartender187
 
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