weird early flower growth possible herms

[Nisor710]

I've had an issue with nanners in the top off the buds my last few harvests in the top of every nug. you have to break down the bud almost to see it in the finished bud. only thing I'm doing different is a different microbe (photoplus) and I'm using a humic fulvic mix at 80%recommended strength (Wallace organic wonder). And age-old kelp at 10ml per gallon (calls for 15ml per gallon)
I don't know that these are herms but the tops of my buds look like they are forming weird? Like there are no pistils on the tops of the flowers. This is how my other harvests went that had the top Nanners.

In coco perlite
I'm using cutting edge solution louder powder at 2.5~ e.c.
1ml agave nectar per gallon
photoplus 30ml per 5 gallon
age old liquid kelp 10ml per gallon
Wallace organic wonder humic/fulvic seaweed 1 tbs per 10 gallon
water goes through a big boy filter and sometimes ill also add calmag
PH- 5.8-6.2


I'm using hlg lights I'm wondering if it could be the light intensity? But tis also happening on all the lowers. I'm using two 350 diablos HLG 350 Diablo – Horticulture Lighting Group at 100% though I crept them to 100% after about a week. Ppfd is about 800-950 at canopy and they are hung at 22 inches.

i dont think its light leaks
im curious if it could be a lack of co2
possibly dry backs im in coco i dont let my plants get to the point of drooping but sometimes a pretty light pot?
Thank you for your time and help.



more pics here

 

[Creeperpark]

I've had an issue with nanners in the top off the buds my last few harvests in the top of every nug. you have to break down the bud almost to see it in the finished bud. only thing I'm doing different is a different microbe (photoplus) and I'm using a humic fulvic mix at 80%recommended strength (Wallace organic wonder). And age-old kelp at 10ml per gallon (calls for 15ml per gallon)
I don't know that these are herms but the tops of my buds look like they are forming weird? Like there are no pistils on the tops of the flowers. This is how my other harvests went that had the top Nanners.

In coco perlite
I'm using cutting edge solution louder powder at 2.5~ e.c.
1ml agave nectar per gallon
photoplus 30ml per 5 gallon
age old liquid kelp 10ml per gallon
Wallace organic wonder humic/fulvic seaweed 1 tbs per 10 gallon
water goes through a big boy filter and sometimes ill also add calmag
PH- 5.8-6.2


I'm using hlg lights I'm wondering if it could be the light intensity? But tis also happening on all the lowers. I'm using two 350 diablos HLG 350 Diablo – Horticulture Lighting Group at 100% though I crept them to 100% after about a week. Ppfd is about 800-950 at canopy and they are hung at 22 inches.

i dont think its light leaks
im curious if it could be a lack of co2
possibly dry backs im in coco i dont let my plants get to the point of drooping but sometimes a pretty light pot?
Thank you for your time and help.



more pics here

That looks like the leaves are light stressed, I raise the lights more.

 

[Nisor710]

That looks like the leaves are light stressed, I raise the lights more.

the ppfd is within acceptable range, and i thought this might be the problem but its also happening on the lower bud sites as well.
also i don't have the ceiling height so i turned it down to 80%

 

[Nisor710]

That looks like the leaves are light stressed, I raise the lights more.

here is a photo of the entire canopy i'm not seeing light stress can you explain to me what you are seeing.
photo is from before i turned the lights down
please and thank you

 

[driver77]

You should be watering/feeding at least daily and probably multiple times a day in coco to runoff. Your first pic looks like fresh growth......maybe a tad light stressed. Second pic looks fine too. When you say lowers look like this too are you talking about fresh buds still?
I don't grow in coco so others hopefully will chime in....but I know you don't let it dry back.

 

[Nisor710]

You should be watering/feeding at least daily and probably multiple times a day in coco to runoff. Your first pic looks like fresh growth......maybe a tad light stressed. Second pic looks fine too. When you say lowers look like this too are you talking about fresh buds still?
I don't grow in coco so others hopefully will chime in....but I know you don't let it dry back.

i grew commercially for 2 years we grew in coco perlite and would water once every 2 to 3 days never saw anything like this. even on plants i brought back from the brink of death that got missed on watering (we were hand watering 300 plant to a room and there were 8 rooms.)
when i say lowers i mean the lower bud sites on the plant.... the bottom of the canopy is doing this as well as in the bud sites farthest from the light.
there are no obvious nanners at this point, but the flowers are forming very weird as you can see in the picture and have no pistils on the tops of the flower sites, i believee my previous harvests did this and they all had a popped nanner or two in the top of the bud and some seeds

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I've had an issue with nanners in the top off the buds my last few harvests in the top of every nug. you have to break down the bud almost to see it in the finished bud. only thing I'm doing different is a different microbe (photoplus) and I'm using a humic fulvic mix at 80%recommended strength (Wallace organic wonder). And age-old kelp at 10ml per gallon (calls for 15ml per gallon)
I don't know that these are herms but the tops of my buds look like they are forming weird? Like there are no pistils on the tops of the flowers. This is how my other harvests went that had the top Nanners.

Damage or yellowing of the tops of the plants can point to a non-mobile nutrient lockout, which usually happens when the pH is too high.

In coco perlite
I'm using cutting edge solution louder powder at 2.5~ e.c.

2.5 EC is already too high.

1ml agave nectar per gallon
photoplus 30ml per 5 gallon
age old liquid kelp 10ml per gallon
Wallace organic wonder humic/fulvic seaweed 1 tbs per 10 gallon
water goes through a big boy filter and sometimes ill also add calmag
PH- 5.8-6.2

You should make your mix of nutrients, and then test the pH and EC over time - immediately, 1 hour later, 2 hours later, 6 hours later, 24 hours later.

I suspect that the pH is slowly increasing over time.

I'm using hlg lights I'm wondering if it could be the light intensity? But tis also happening on all the lowers. I'm using two 350 diablos HLG 350 Diablo – Horticulture Lighting Group at 100% though I crept them to 100% after about a week. Ppfd is about 800-950 at canopy and they are hung at 22 inches.

i dont think its light leaks
im curious if it could be a lack of co2
possibly dry backs im in coco i dont let my plants get to the point of drooping but sometimes a pretty light pot?
Thank you for your time and help.



more pics here

If you don't mind going synthetic, this is all you need:

Canna Coco A+B
Epsom Salt
Ph Down

Keep the pH of the nutrients at 6.0 throughout the grow.

Keep the EC at 1.0 through vegging, and raise it to 1.6 when flowering starts.

Use less light. The light is for living, the dark is for flowering.

 

[Nisor710]

Damage or yellowing of the tops of the plants can point to a non-mobile nutrient lockout, which usually happens when the pH is too high.



2.5 EC is already too high.


You should make your mix of nutrients, and then test the pH and EC over time - immediately, 1 hour later, 2 hours later, 6 hours later, 24 hours later.

I suspect that the pH is slowly increasing over time.



If you don't mind going synthetic, this is all you need:

Canna Coco A+B
Epsom Salt
Ph Down

Keep the pH of the nutrients at 6.0 throughout the grow.

Keep the EC at 1.0 through vegging, and raise it to 1.6 when flowering starts.

Use less light. The light is for living, the dark is for flowering.

that yellow is just bright green from new growth ph run off is fine.
i check my res ph before i water every water. (yes it is aerated) and only sits for 2 days max.
2.5 ec is what it comes out at after i add all my nutrients at recommended strength.
i usually have betwenn 15-30% runoff depending on my last run off e.c. and p.h.
as you can see from the attached photo there is no nutrient burn or ph issues.
my leaf tips aren't even slightly tinged.
the issue in my opinion is the "knots" on the tops of the flowers and no pistils which i believe are going to turn into nanners.
you want your ph to be within 5.5 to 6.5 but i tighten mine to 5.8-6.2 for ph change in the pot. the reason you want to change your ph throughout your grow (preferably from low to high) is that different nutrients uptake easier at different ph. nitrogen at lower P and K and higher.

 

[TanzanianMagic]

that yellow is just bright green from new growth ph run off is fine.
i check my res ph before i water every water. (yes it is aerated) and only sits for 2 days max.
2.5 ec is what it comes out at after i add all my nutrients at recommended strength.
i usually have betwenn 15-30% runoff depending on my last run off e.c. and p.h.
as you can see from the attached photo there is no nutrient burn or ph issues.
my leaf tips aren't even slightly tinged.
the issue in my opinion is the "knots" on the tops of the flowers and no pistils which i believe are going to turn into nanners.
you want your ph to be within 5.5 to 6.5 but i tighten mine to 5.8-6.2 for ph change in the pot. the reason you want to change your ph throughout your grow (preferably from low to high) is that different nutrients uptake easier at different ph. nitrogen at lower P and K and higher.
View attachment 19075308

First of all, great grow.

The thing is that coco coir isn't hydro or soil. It has a higher pH requirement. If you aim at 6.0, you can't go wrong, because that's also the pH of the coco coir itself.

The pH that is made available to the plant isn't only the pH of the nutrient solution. It is the buffering capacity of the medium, plus the pH and buffering capacity of the nutrient solution.

Coco coir buffers to 6.0 pH, and if the nutrient solution is also 6.0 pH, there are no pH swings.

You can't go wrong with that. If you use synthetics like Canna Coco A+B.

Which is all I know about, because I haven't grown in coco coir with other organics added.

My experience is with coco coir synthetics, completely organic supersoil and compost.

What I'm seeing in this photograph is plants that are basically healthty and aren't dying. They have some early issues. The purpling of the leaf stem in the center could be nitrogen or potassium issues. The thickness of the leaf could be magnesium. The wrinkling of the leaves could be zinc.

The coco coir is mixed with perlite. Perlite has a higher pH than coco coir, 7.0 vs 6.0.

I think the problem is mixing coco coir with organic nutrients and adding perlite for aeration.

In coco perlite
I'm using cutting edge solution louder powder at 2.5~ e.c.

Louder Powder is not specific for coco coir.

"The Mineral Family of fertilizers from Cutting Edge Solutions® are concentrated formulas for commercial farmers, suitable for root-feeding in all growing mediums."

1ml agave nectar per gallon

Agave nectar is a natural syrup. I'm sure in an of itself it will be good, however it needs to be fermented before it reaches plant roots.

photoplus 30ml per 5 gallon

Microbe Life Hydroponics' Organic Photo Plus seems to be some kind of microbial addition.

age old liquid kelp 10ml per gallon

Sea kelp is a great addition to compost or supersoil. It needs decomposing, and can contain extra sodium and chloride, which are also alkaline.

Wallace organic wonder humic/fulvic seaweed 1 tbs per 10 gallon

"5-2 Humic / Fulvic Acid + Seaweed Extract Wonder Blend Wallace Organic Wonder" which is more seaweed, again more potential for sodium and chloride, which are alkaline.

water goes through a big boy filter and sometimes ill also add calmag
PH- 5.8-6.2

If you'd added all this to compost, or composted it with supersoil, there wouldn't be a problem.

Organic nutrients are always contained in something else, and they need time, bacteria, sugar, temperature and moisture to decompose. It is not something you want to go on in your root zone.

I think the best thing is to switch to a synthetic nutrient like Canna Coco A+B, even with the perlite added.

I'd say: go all coco, or all organic whether that's supersoil or compost.

And also in future grows, if you go with coco, don't add perlite, just don't water as often. Coco coir aerates itself if it is allowed to dry a little. (Just water when the top of the soil is dry before the lights go up, whether that's twice a week or every day, depending on plant size, humidity, etc. And use 1/4 of the recommended strength, as drying concentrates the nutrients.)

 

[Nisor710]

That looks like the leaves are light stressed, I raise the lights more.

i think it was the light intensity.

 

[Nisor710]

First of all, great grow.

The thing is that coco coir isn't hydro or soil. It has a higher pH requirement. If you aim at 6.0, you can't go wrong, because that's also the pH of the coco coir itself.

The pH that is made available to the plant isn't only the pH of the nutrient solution. It is the buffering capacity of the medium, plus the pH and buffering capacity of the nutrient solution.

Coco coir buffers to 6.0 pH, and if the nutrient solution is also 6.0 pH, there are no pH swings.

You can't go wrong with that. If you use synthetics like Canna Coco A+B.

Which is all I know about, because I haven't grown in coco coir with other organics added.

My experience is with coco coir synthetics, completely organic supersoil and compost.

View attachment 19075470

What I'm seeing in this photograph is plants that are basically healthty and aren't dying. They have some early issues. The purpling of the leaf stem in the center could be nitrogen or potassium issues. The thickness of the leaf could be magnesium. The wrinkling of the leaves could be zinc.

The coco coir is mixed with perlite. Perlite has a higher pH than coco coir, 7.0 vs 6.0.

I think the problem is mixing coco coir with organic nutrients and adding perlite for aeration.


Louder Powder is not specific for coco coir.

"The Mineral Family of fertilizers from Cutting Edge Solutions® are concentrated formulas for commercial farmers, suitable for root-feeding in all growing mediums."


Agave nectar is a natural syrup. I'm sure in an of itself it will be good, however it needs to be fermented before it reaches plant roots.

Microbe Life Hydroponics' Organic Photo Plus seems to be some kind of microbial addition.

Sea kelp is a great addition to compost or supersoil. It needs decomposing, and can contain extra sodium and chloride, which are also alkaline.

"5-2 Humic / Fulvic Acid + Seaweed Extract Wonder Blend Wallace Organic Wonder" which is more seaweed, again more potential for sodium and chloride, which are alkaline.

If you'd added all this to compost, or composted it with supersoil, there wouldn't be a problem.

Organic nutrients are always contained in something else, and they need time, bacteria, sugar, temperature and moisture to decompose. It is not something you want to go on in your root zone.

I think the best thing is to switch to a synthetic nutrient like Canna Coco A+B, even with the perlite added.

I'd say: go all coco, or all organic whether that's supersoil or compost.

And also in future grows, if you go with coco, don't add perlite, just don't water as often. Coco coir aerates itself if it is allowed to dry a little. (Just water when the top of the soil is dry before the lights go up, whether that's twice a week or every day, depending on plant size, humidity, etc. And use 1/4 of the recommended strength, as drying concentrates the nutrients.)

coco is a hydro media.

(coco perlite) it comes mixed you can buy it separate but i plan on switching to a drip feed for which you want the extra aeration so you can feed more than once a day.

canna cocco is still a mineral nutrient... a salt is a salt they are all very similar. from G.H. to athena. i just like cutting edge solution i may go back to g.h.. maybe it(canna coco) has a wetting agent or something but its probably basically the same.

you are right im doubling up on kelp and will rotate them (wallace one feed age old the next). though i added them both for specific reasons the liquid kelp to help the microbes the humic fulvic for the humic fulvic more so than the kelp i just bought the wrong bag this time but not the end of the world.
studies show that it(humic/fulvic at a 5/2 ratio) increases yield in almost all fruiting plants.

agave nectar doesn't need to be heated to be available to plants its similar to molasses but has less sodium and other micro nutrients.

Honey Chome – Emerald Harvest

emeraldharvest.co

this is considered one of the best sugars to add it uses cane sugar, palm sugar, and agave nectar. the only reason it uses palm sugar is for subsidies. cane sugar doesn't contain anything that agave nectar doesn't. if you do the math it comes out to about 1ml per gallon (if you just make the other ingredients agave nectar)

you don't have to go for one or the other as far as organic or synthetic. microbes can be beneficial to synthetic nutes. they can also throw off your ph if you aren't on top of it. going with a sterile system may be best for large scale operations or people who want it easier but i am going for quality above all else.
if i wanted to go the route you are suggesting i would add reset by athena to the res as well (which i do for my auto cloner)
also with the canna coco recommendation I'm not paying for fucking water and shipping of water

 

[TanzanianMagic]

coco is a hydro media.

Coco stands beteen hydro and soil. It needs a higher pH that hydro, and lower than soil.

Coco naturally buffers to 6.0, which is already higher than the high range of hydroponics.

(coco perlite) it comes mixed you can buy it separate but i plan on switching to a drip feed for which you want the extra aeration so you can feed more than once a day.

Why do you want to feed more than once a day?

It doesn't make the plants grow faster.

canna cocco is still a mineral nutrient... a salt is a salt they are all very similar.

The ratios are different.

It is much better to pick a good brand of coco, use the nutrient line that goes with that and was tested on that medium.

If you're matching and mixing synthetic nutrients with organic nutrients, let alone from different lines, you're doing a biochemistry experiment.

The thing to do when you're using a new medium, is to do everything by the book, so you can see what is necessary to get things right. Then, you have a basis from which to tweak and add something, and see what happens.

 

[Nisor710]

I'm not using a new media I've grown in coco perlite commercially, and I've ran it at home for the last few years. my lights are new and i added humic fulvic, kelp, and im using a different microbe. i used to use recharge in veg and mammoth p in flower. it was expensive so i read into what recharge was and what mammoth p was. mammoth is basically alfalfa extract mixed with a microbe and recharge is humic fulvic mixed with a microbe with a sugar. which i found are cheaper to buy separately.
and I've ran cutting edge solution for a majority of the time as well.

but I've more or less ran this for years. the only truly new addition is the kelp and i still want to add an alfalfa extract in the near future.
and I've ran hlg(lights) for like 8 years i just got their newer lights.

 

[Nisor710]

i have wondered why my leaves crinkle so hard ill look into the zinc deficiency.