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Water quality plays a much bigger role on pH than you do feeding @ a specific pH

C

Carl Carlson

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There are other versions of this chart and I see them as a source of confusion for some folks.

Nutrient_Chart.gif


Whether you are growing in soil, coco, perlite or a whole host of other mediums (other than water itself), this chart never applies to the water + fertilizer that you are feeding to the plants. It applies to the pH of the medium surrounding the roots. If you are trying to correct a single nutrient deficiency, you won't do it by simply altering the pH of the water + fertilizer that is fed to the plants.

If I may quote from one the best researches and publications on this subject:

pH Management and Plant Nutrition, Bill Argo
Part 2 Water Quality
When it comes to managing the pH of a substrate, the alkalinity concentration has a much greater effect than does water pH. Alkalinity (calcium bicarbonate, magnesium bicarbonate, and sodium bicarbonate) and limestone (calcium and magnesium carbonate) react very similarly when added to a substrate. And just like too much limestone, the use of irrigation water containing high levels of alkalinity can cause the pH of the substrate to increase above acceptable levels for healthy plant growth.

[..]

Alkalinity is a measure of how much acid it takes to lower the pH below a certain level, also called \ acid-buffering capacity. Alkalinity is usually measured with a test kit where dilute acid is added until a color change occurs at a specific pH. Alkalinity is not a specific ion, but rather includes the concentration of several ions that affect acid-buffering capacity. Under most conditions, the ions that have the greatest effect on alkalinity are bicarbonates like calcium, magnesium, or sodium bicarbonate and, to a lesser extent, carbonates like calcium or sodium. Several other ions including hydroxides, phosphates, ammonium, silicates, sulfides, borates, and arsenate also can contribute to alkalinity, but their concentration is usually so low that they can be ignored.

So before you start growing or if you already are, take a trip to the pet store or the pond supply and pickup an inexpensive multi test kit for water that includes alkalinity.

Between 40 and 120 ppm of Total Alkalinity is generally recommended to maintain a stable medium pH over time. Lower TA tends to lead to low pH problems and high TA leads can lead to high pH problems.

The tendency of a fertilizer to change medium pH depends on it on the form of Nitrogen being used as well. Ammoniacal nitrogen can cause the medium pH to go down. Nitrate nitrogen can increase the medium pH. Urea nitrogen has to be converted to ammoniacal before it's used by the plants. Take a look at the label on your bottle or sack of fertilizer and you'll most likely find a very low percentage of ammoniacal and urea compared to nitrate. That's because these fertilizers are designed to be used with good water. So stop fucking around and test that water already!

The rest of Argo's series, including the section that goes into fertilizer and medium pH, is hosted here: http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/culturewater.htm


Water pH alone has very little impact on coco grow pH
 

Madrus Rose

post 69
Veteran
Found another good source link Carl ? :)

I have had almost an exact similar nutrient element vs PH chart to the first one above for yrs , that showed something a little different concerning Nitrogen...that N was not as soluable at higher PH's & that fell off as you passed 7-7.5....hence the yellowing some experience when not paying attention to drifting higher PH. And it also gave a slightly different view of Phos vs PH , having P being more available at higher PH's .
The 2nd chart very clear & seems to be dead on ...

( why with H&G's shooting powder for instance they say not to worry about a slight raise in PH when using)

But i see these charts are dealing with the PH values of the medium surrounding
the roots & not the values of the added Nute/water mix...

Whether you are growing in soil, coco, perlite or a whole host of other mediums (other than water itself), this chart never applies to the water + fertilizer that you are feeding to the plants. It applies to the pH of the medium surrounding the roots. If you are trying to correct a single nutrient deficiency, you won't do it by simply altering the pH of the water + fertilizer that is fed to the plants.


Will have to get that chart out for a review of the subject & will do a scan & post later sometime , glad u posted the charts/link tho . Given a near neutral medium a normal ph'd nute formula should do fine ...or if using a peat based (already slightly acidic) medium like Sunshine or Promix good to go from the start , but would want to avoid formulas with excessive ammoniacal/urea nitrogen (cause ph to drop) , leaning more heavily to nitrate sources
(cause ph in medium to drift up)

The tendency of a fertilizer to change medium pH depends on it on the form of Nitrogen being used as well. Ammoniacal nitrogen can cause the medium pH to go down. Nitrate nitrogen can increase the medium pH. Urea nitrogen has to be converted to ammoniacal before it's used by the plants. Take a look at the label on your bottle or sack of fertilizer and you'll most likely find a very low percentage of ammoniacal and urea compared to nitrate. That's because these fertilizers are designed to be used with good water. So stop fucking around and test that water already!


tx!
 
C

Carl Carlson

source link for what?

I usually use Argo's series for these water related posts, but there are plenty of other credible sources that explain the same thing.

The peat based media pH chart (the first one) is from a study or a paper somewhere in my archives.
 

jjfoo

Member
this chart never applies to the water + fertilizer that you are feeding to the plants. It applies to the pH of the medium surrounding the roots.

Any info on why the availability of nuts would be different if the roots are in aqua culture (DWC)? I have been under the assumption that the pH of the water containing the roots in would have similar effects in nutrient availability.
 
Excellent question jjfoo...I am wondering the same thing. After seeing rust spots on lower older growth first then spreads to new growth quickly over time that must be contributed to PH as the nutrient solution contains a balance supply of nutrients yet the plants exihibit or show deficiency's....IN DWC I am wondering how to go about changing the PH of the medium since there really is no medium. How can one apply the chart values to correct in DWC or RDWC? All we have to work with is the nutrient solution itself it seems?

Also, if alkilinity is so important, why does the alkilinity (TALK) go down when you lower the ph with ph down? Wouldnt simply lowering the PH fix the problem with high alkilinity in your source water? Does what you use to lower the PH affect this in any way? Like citric acid opposed to phosphoric acid or the other differnt types of PH down on the market?

The info is awsome but it really brings up even more questions about PH and source water. There seems to be an abundance of growers that have tap water that is very borderline "ok" for use. It seems also to logically use tap water if you can rather than more wasteful options like RO unless you just have to because of poor tap. This info on total alkilinity seems to be at the heart of making the decision to use tap or not or if you can and still maintain healthy plants with out constant problems.
 

jjfoo

Member
alkilinity doesn not go down wehn you change the pH

RO has low alkilinity, it is easy to lower the pH. Tap water has higher alkalinity it takes more acid to lower the pH

I grow in DWC and keep don't want organic stuff added. If I needed to adjust the pH I'd use phosphoric, nitric, or sulfuric acid. I use jrpeters hydro nutes and calcium nitrate. My pH is usually around 5.8 with just the water and two powders I add. It is designed that way.

Keep in mind that adding phosphoric acid will increase your P levels. Citric acid is an organic acid it probably wont keep the pH as stable as phosporic acid.

I use ro because I don't want calcium carbonate in my water. I prefer to add my calcium from calcium nitrate.
 

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