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Vapor pressure of the various compounds

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
So being like a kid in a candy store here at a site filled with so many people with a wealth of knowledge, my mind feels free to explore the how and why of enjoying this gift. Think going from doobs or even home-made pipes from beer cans to Volcano, rosin press and blasting. And meanwhile I am trying to keep the lungs working OK.

So it seems that what is going on as we heat (flower, bubble, rosin, oil, etc) the material the compound react to the temperature and ambient pressure. The "lighter" compounds go at a lower temp and the "heavier" compounds at a higher temp. We can assume the pressure is constant in whatever the material is being heated in.

Following from here: https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshe...nd_Intermolecular_Forces/11.5:_Vapor_Pressure

If a liquid is in an open container, however, most of the molecules that escape into the vapor phase will not collide with the surface of the liquid and return to the liquid phase. Instead, they will diffuse through the gas phase away from the container, and an equilibrium will never be established. Under these conditions, the liquid will continue to evaporate until it has “disappeared.” The speed with which this occurs depends on the vapor pressure of the liquid and the temperature. Volatile liquids have relatively high vapor pressures and tend to evaporate readily; nonvolatile liquids have low vapor pressures and evaporate more slowly.

imageedit_3_4342158846.png


So looking at that chart and imagining it has all of the compounds we care about (some probably lump together) we can see that individual items have vapor "smell" even below the boiling point (vapor pressure is same as local atmosphere). That is why a bag can be sniffed for "quality" - the lower boiling point items are making vapor. Leave the bag sitting and they may all go away leaving thicker vapors to make smell.

I would love to see vapor pressure charts for the desired compounds and be able to see what I get at 300, 360, 420. At 360 there is a lot left behind and that goes into edibles. 420, burned out I think. I also suspect that folks that are heating their material at a high temp to get max vapor are also reaching out to the thicker compounds.

If you look at the log pressure / temp chart on this link, and imagine vaping at 20*, you would get all the lower things in poportion to their individual vapor pressures, and miss entirely the upper two. The difference in strins is the profile of these lines I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_pressure

IMO this needs some discussion. There is much on the web that dances around this as best as I can tell. We need to nail it before some clown puts in a patent.

And I know very damn little on the science aspect of this, but my lungs can detect the truth..
 

flylowgethigh

Non-growing Lurker
ICMag Donor
Thanks Mr. gray wolf. Looking at that link I see:

Boiling Point: 194.00 to 197.00 °C. @ 760.00 mm Hg
Boiling Point: 117.00 to 118.00 °C. @ 50.00 mm Hg ??? is this relevant ?? is it 50 mm Hg @ 117 vapor pressure ??
And :
Vapor Pressure: 0.016000 mm Hg @ 25.00 °C.

So I think we have 3 points for that curve... I suppose I could take a list of the most interesting compounds and see where they lie on the boiling point spectrum for a start.The problem is the curve shape.

0.0160 mmHg @ 25*C (call this room temp for now)
50.0 mmHg @ 117*C (again is this correct interpretation?)
760.0 mmHG @ 195*C atmospheric / room pressure

The vapor at room temp means we can smell the Linalool. This low temp vapor pressure releases the compound at that rate, and faster at a higher temp makes a stronger more concentrated smell as the increase pressure at 117* shows. More density of the compound because it has more partial pressure I think. Lower temp hardly any is detected.

Edit: The more firmly I believe this temp thing the deeper I delve in (and yeah, higher temps release the gooder stuff so we're delving high!). It looks like there is nothing new under the sun and there are lists of interesting compounds and they are sorted by temp. Here is one and it is older:

https://www.weedist.com/2012/07/tailoring-high-compounds-in-cannabis-properties-boiling-points/

And the basic motivation for all this curiosity has already been addressed here:

https://www.canorml.org/healthfacts/jcantgieringervapor.pdf

Which was synopsized here:

https://www.canorml.org/vaporizors/...-vaporizers-reduce-toxins-in-marijuana-smoke/

So in summary, sorry for the waste of bandwidth. So much to ingest, er I mean learn.

Edit. Screw that I take it back and onward with the quest!

I still say that the vapor pressure curves which show the "initiation " of vapor release would be nice, I think, and is a key point to also be considered for taste and effects.

My near-term takeaway from this little excursion is that the Volcano is MY preferred method at home plate. That little dab pen is OK but I need to be dabbing straight from the press and use low temps to avoid thick goo. For away games I will bring pressed rosin infused reefer. Jury is still out for me on BHO until I can make it.
 
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flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
So I was looking around the web about compounds and this SPR link came up.

https://skunkpharmresearch.com/cannabinoid-info/

Look at what I found in the comments. I am not the only suspicious one:

Zack I
May 09, 2015 at 9:10 PM
It is important to note that for the cannabinoids and sesquiiterpenes, the published boiling points are all at reduced pressure, on the order of 50 torr or less. Example: limonene boils at 177 C at 1 atm, but the value given for caryophyllene (a terpene with a larger and heavier mo-lecular structure) is a mere 119 C. Indeed, Wikipedia lists the BP of caryophyllene as 128 - 129 C at 14 torr - or about 1.8% atmospheric pressure. This includes the cannabinoids. To suggest that THC, a molecule twice the size of the aforementioned limonene, boils 20 C lower, is preposterous. For these heavier compounds, a melting point and vapor pressure (as % of atm) at a given temperature is more useful information for the consumer looking to dial in their vaporizer temps.

Reply

Zack I
May 09, 2015 at 9:18 PM
In more conventional terms, the boiling point of a material is related to pressure. This is why vacuum purging for BHO and HHO is used - by reducing the boiling point of the solvent, it evaporates faster and more completely. In concentrate manufacture, it's a constant battle to remove solvent and preserve terpenes, as both are volatile and boil at lower temperatures under reduced pressure. Thoroughly purged BHO often lacks the intense bright presence of monoterpenes (myrcene, pinene, limonene and linalool are most abundant in my experience) that a more careful purge would leave behind. Most of the sesquiterpenes and cannabinoids (and the flavinoid-type compounds listed at the end) decompose before they reach their effective boiling point at regular air pressure, which is why a vacuum boiling point is listed instead.
 

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
Here is an article written by someone we all know to be a very smart guy. I am certainly not a smart guy, especially after cookies and bags. But my question - again - is the boiling temperature of a compound at a certain pressure (see chart below for an example) analogous to the vapor pressure (actually partial pressure or something like that) of that compound at that temperature?

https://skunkpharmresearch.com/blog-images/thc-boiling-point-of-thc-under-vacuum.jpg

Does this mean the compound has pressure of 1.93 PSIA at 115*C?

I am going to apologize to whomever I said THC wasn't 315F at 1 ATM because of this data he posted - see chart. But if that is so, why with a bag at 385F, only half of the 315F BP THC (if that) has vaporized?

temp/presssure chart:

thc-boiling-point-of-thc-under-vacuum.jpg


But if that is so, why with a bag at 385F, only half of the 315F BP THC (if that) has vaporized?

Huge edit 1/19: This video pretty much shows what my experiments find but the experiment could have been better. The amount of material in the bowl, the heating of the material due to vaporizer design, and time at heat also factor in. I have posted data on that in the AVB thread. The THC is not flying at 315 near as well as 380 in the video chart. That is my lung lab experience, and 420 is way harder hitting than 380.

https://youtu.be/npjDX2jcZjU
 
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Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
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Here is an article written by someone we all know to be a very smart guy. I am certainly not a smart guy, especially after cookies and bags. But my question - again - is the boiling temperature of a compound at a certain pressure (see chart below for an example) analogous to the vapor pressure (actually partial pressure or something like that) of that compound at that temperature?

https://skunkpharmresearch.com/blog-images/thc-boiling-point-of-thc-under-vacuum.jpg

Does this mean the compound has pressure of 1.93 PSIA at 115*C?

I am going to apologize to whomever I said THC wasn't 315F at 1 ATM. But if that is so, why with a bag at 385F, only half of the 315F BP THC (if that) has vaporized?

temp/presssure chart:

View Image

1.93 PSIA / 10,000 microns is the remaining atmospheric pressure expressed in pounds at 87% vacuum level, but for the molecule to escape it has to somehow overcome that pressure.
 

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
Here is a video that shows where I am heading. Again, nothing new under the sun. This ignored the effects of material load size in the chamber, which affects the heat transfer and material temp. Same for time of running the fan to fill the balloon, longer makes all the material hotter and closer to the set-point

Did you look at that video GW? Quick and dirty test, but good data.

Coulld be better... With a few different strains (thick kush, nice sativa, and some of the loud-ass strains I have been getting that scream when I open the pack full of busted open trich heads. Run a few bags at each temp point. Run each bag when filled and then after 5 minutes, and then 10 minutes to condense the thicker compounds.

6 years ago BTW... https://youtu.be/npjDX2jcZjU
 

G.O. Joe

Well-known member
Veteran
But if that is so, why with a bag at 385F, only half of the 315F BP THC (if that) has vaporized?

Because the chart is wrong and the bp is much higher. You missed the arguments I've been having over the years that are in older threads. There's lots of great science in threads here that neither of us have read.

No one wants to hear it, but it's obvious that the multitude of literature giving cannabis oil and cannabinoid boiling points under high vacuum outweighs a single McPartland and Russo chart not giving the vacuum, and it's just as obvious that the problem is that pressures which should have been given were not. Not to mention the simplest C21 alkane, heneicosane, having a bp of 356 - C - THC would not have a lower bp than this if it could boil at atmospheric pressure without decomposition.
 

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
Did you watch the video I found at FC? The data at the end is what I was looking for. I am now digging in that very direction and would love to find a proper study, with data. Pause at 0:17 and read the note. They measured post vape content, and I hope they did before also so the amount of compound released, which could give some quantification on the Y axis "presense". I have posted papers that show how much gets vaped and left behind at various temps. This will be figured out dammit! Probably already has.

https://youtu.be/npjDX2jcZjU <<<--- click here and go to the end. It's only a couple minutes.

Those charts should be wallpaper at every dispensary that sells flowers, including the hemp flowers. Those hemp flowers would make nice lines also. Overlay on a high TCH strain.

IMO, characterizing the compounds of a strain this way is better data than that phylos crap, as far as consumers are concerned. The compound traces of one strain could be overlaid on another strain and the differences in effect quantified.

I am going to go out on a limb and predict this has already been done, and is probably been done for a long time. That video is 6 years old. You wanna tailor a strain, work on the compound curves.

There is nothing new under the sun so fergit patenting this idea. Sure would help a new cannabis user who wants to vape and not get into bad lungs. Also, I see that I was right in creeping my low temp from 300* to 320*F. The vid shows 340 but I am seeing vapor at 315-320 - some compound is making white.

As for the THC boiling point, pause at 1:25 and guess the official BP. I have adjusted my second bag of the same material now to 385, but I have to wait about 5-10 mins for the nasties to condense away.

Now pause at 1:35 and see the terps fade away. Why don't they show the "presense" from lab room temp up to the 300* where they start the chart? We could get an idea what "bag" smell is.

OK, one more thought. My thread dammit. There is another kind of bag smell and that is when a pack is cut open. Vacpaking is hell on the heads and probably a little mini press action is going on. The heads bust open and release the liquid goodness. No longer restrained in the head globe - just soaked into the buds at room temp, waiting to pounce when the bag is cut open. Some strains pounce with force. Those terps are gone.

Sorry, but I have a great cookie buzz as I try to type, and looked at 1:35 again. a-pinene baby!!! My low temp bag makes my lungs feel great and no cough cause of all that a-pinene maybe. At 385* I will cough unless I condense higher actives by letting the bag cool.. Notice a-pinene is done at 385*? There and above I cough and so others.

Sell a-pinene inhalers.

third idea: Can I buy a-pinene and put some on the material I am about to do the second bag of?

aalso, there is still about 1/2 the THC after a 380* bag. Do another and get most of the rest. I prefer to make butter with it though cause that bag tastes nasty. Doing a spectrum on the 2nd bag at 385 would show why I suppose.
 
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G.O. Joe

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Veteran
The video leaves more questions than answers. It says that terpenes are volatile - shocking news. But what does the vertical axis represent, total FID peak area, equal for each, or is it relative to the individual concentrations? The material has relatively equal amounts of all the cannabinoids and terpenes, really? Was it naturally that way or was this oregano spiked with individual pure components? Is fresh ground herb spiked with chemicals the same as pot with terpenes and cannabinoids in trichomes? Why are the terpenes not volatile - or, are they not the original terpenes - at higher temperatures? They don't say. They do say that the cannabinoid maximum is 380 when it's clear that it's 400 or above. Why would there be less THCV and CBD at 400? At least they use a cool kid font and imitiation tribal music, that's the important thing.
 

flylowgethigh

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That video and test were paid for by the vape mfg company. That companywebsite says nothing about that desktop or that test.

Like I said, the experiment could have been designed better. I do not know what the vert axis was thus my "presense" term, and the before/after test on the material to see how much was released.

I so want to call that place and get the story. Their machine is more better than my lungs for data. All my lungs know are good and cough.
 

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
I called the lab that did this test... https://youtu.be/npjDX2jcZjU

What suggestions does (anybody) have on how would a proper re-run of the test in the video be done to obtain the data curves shown at the end, and have it be worthwhile? And since a properly performed test run would only be done one strain at a time, is doing several full test runs on different strains worthwhile? Sure would show a lot IMO.

I am of the opinion that strains can be profiled by the "presence" of the various terps, as well as the active compounds. Would starting below 300* be worthwhile for that, and how low?

Sativa - Indica - CBD Hemp - American Crippy ;)

I got a sample of "Sour Space Candy" CBD hemp here I will try the wake and bake with at 315* for comparison. At room temp it smells good.
 

G.O. Joe

Well-known member
Veteran
They already are profiled by GC. Headspace GC shows the components volatile at room temperature, which are not the same. Your test will show that terpenes boil, like the video test. Everyone already knows this. It would be more interesting to take similar samples (same weight, particle size, terpene, water, and cannabinoid content) of real pot with different dominant cannabinoids - in their acid form - and see if there is a difference between vaporization of strains with 10% THCA, CBDA, THCVA, CBGA. But it would have to either be a LC test, or they would have to derivatize to tell the difference between volatilized acid and decarboxylated forms by GC.
 

flylowgethigh

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ICMag Donor
What is headspace GC besides a bag sniff test? If they can do that at various temps maybe that is better than a bag. Remember I am not a scientist, just a guy that thinks I want a chart like the one in that video to know more about what is in the vapor. It definitely changes with temp. Also dying to know what is being condensed that otherwise would be inhaled as the heated vapor is cooled on the way into the bag with a chiller, or when in the bag by condensation. I haven'y heard back from them yet and I expect it costs by the bagfull, so each temp adds one more bag.

I am reading Storm Shadow's Iranian thread. Wouldn't it be nice to know what smelled so good then later had no smell? Those were awful frosty buds.

Guess active compounds and my curiosity get me going sometimes.
 
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