Using ultrasonic fogger to maintain kbs grow room humidity at 70% RH

[snowkitty]

I’m running a krusty set-up and from my reading the stress-free environment (room temp, rez temp, co2, lighting, and humidity) is the key to any success at all. I’ve got the temperature, lighting, and co2 under control (and the only way to do that is to spend $$ on a/c, water chillers, and co2 generators) but I am struggling with humidity. Edit - KBS calls for 70% RH environmental condition.

Before I started spending all my days on icmag, I whipped out my amex and purchased the nicest residential room humidifier I could find from an allergy/home medical care website. Only $100 but it was the best I could find online. It failed to do anything at all to affect the humidity in a 8x8 room with 4 plants and a clone machine in it. Leaving a big dog bowl of water under my Costco electric heater would have done more…lol.

Ultrasonic water fogger / mist maker
Now I am planning to use this

It’s an ultrasonic water fogger…the kind DJs use to make lighted mist and the kind you see in those mall stores that sell little lighted stands in the shape of fish or waterfalls or whatever. The manufacturer sells them with either 5, 9, or 12 of the little disks that make the humidity. I got the 12 disk option because I figure the more the better and I will let you all know how it performs in my 8x8 room or a 10x10 one.

Other options
1 – Hydrofogger, a self-contained little misting unit for industrial applications that costs around $500
2 – Nutramist, which is intended for fogoponics and misting a nutrient solution. I read some people struggling to use them. They cost more than the solution my partner came up with…using a wholesale DJ supply place to get the fogger disk you see here.

What you need to know about using your fogger (help me out here!!)
I’m planning to put it in RO water because I’ve read about the sediment from foggers getting sprayed all over grow room bulbs and being nasty to clean off.

I got the matching buoy to go with it because it was pretty cheap and I figure it will support the exact diameter of the fogger and keep it at the right level in my water supply.

What else do I need to know? What do you use to generate humidity and how do you care for it?

Other than that I am just waiting until I get it in hand and then I can test out placement and what kind of water container to put it in and all of that…

Technical Specifications for the fogger
Item: DK12; Input: 120V/36V AC
Disk size: 20mm diameter
Mist water rate: 6500ml/hour
Super high output 12 jet mist maker without decorative light, outdoor/indoor transformer, fogger size 6"(dia) x 2 1/2"(h), cord length 32', great for pond or waterfalls.

If you want to buy in bulk (4 pieces at a time)
http://www.oceanmistmaker.com/humidifierwholesales.html

If you want to buy retail (1 piece at a time)
http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html

 

[Hydro-Soil]

Ultrasonic water fogger / mist maker
Now I am planning to use this

As long as it doesn't crap out like the regular consumer types you find in the stores. Since it's for a DJ setup it should be fairly solid. I'd contact the mfg and find out what life-span it will have if you use it for 10hrs a day?

 

[Blunt_69]

I whipped out my amex and purchased the nicest residential room humidifier I could find from an allergy/home medical care website. Only $100 but it was the best I could find online. It failed to do anything at all to affect the humidity in a 8x8 room with 4 plants and a clone machine in it. Leaving a big dog bowl of water under my Costco electric heater would have done more…lol.

Well that would make sense seeing how you need a DE-humidifier. If your RH is that high 70% your air is very moist, not dry. You need to remove the moisture not add more. Operating with RH this high will not only effect performance of room, it will also lead to things like black mold growing..

Dehumidifiers are not cheap (they have a compressor like AC)

 

[snowkitty]

Well that would make sense seeing how you need a DE-humidifier. If your RH is that high 70% your air is very moist, not dry. You need to remove the moisture not add more. Operating with RH this high will not only effect performance of room, it will also lead to things like black mold growing..

Dehumidifiers are not cheap (they have a compressor like AC)

I'm trying to achieve 70% RH and I'm only around 50%. Yes, I know 70% sounds high but lots of KBS growers have reported success keeping it that high in his otherwise completely controlled environment.

 

[Blunt_69]

You gotta link snowkitty???

I'd like to know why KBS growers are doing it different then anybody else.i'd never run a RH that high, let alone injecting the room with more.... If their is a reason, i'd sure like to know?

There is nothing special about the KBS, it's a hydroponic system.

 

[been]

Yo SK!

You're gonna have a hard time getting the humidity you want with a fogger like that (I believe). I think Krusty used the Nutramist, but those are really expensive and I don't think they'll cover the whole room (think he used a couple/few).

What you really want is a variable-speed high pressure diaphragm pump (50 psi) and some fogger nozzles. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=39_67&products_id=986 You can get the pump for like $150 and the nozzles are like $1 each. You can choose to plumb them with PVC (threaded) or poly hose (barbed). It would be a lot cheaper and IMHO, a lot more effective than what you got pictured there.

I've been reading up on TAG and Pod Racer's threads are full of great info. He used the cooling fogger-nozzles to feed his plants without problems, so if you'd just be using R/O or distilled, you'd be that much better off.

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=52431

 

[ogatec]

50% is puuuuuuuurrrrrrrrfect! i wish my humuditiy was @ that level!

70% is not too bad, but some strains will still mold, i wonder why they like it @ 70?

 

[Blunt_69]

The only thing I know that the RH would to a plant would be to slow the transpiration down.If it's to high there is no where for the humidity or moisture to go so the plant slows down its rate it passes water,slowing the growth.If the RH % is to low the plant will tighten the stomata or the pores on the leaves so it doesn't suck the plant of all it's moisture before the plant can replace it,again slowing the growth.I never heard of it affecting the trichs though? I do know keeping a fan running with lights off and high rh will help reduce the chance of mold though.If yer happy with the bud and yer not getting mold,I wouldn't worry about it,who knows maybe it's the strain yer runnin? Good luck wit it,take care...BC

My humidity regularly runs about 40% and have never seen any stress issues. The only thing I'm seeing is earlier and more significant trichome production. Potency is awesome, yield is great, buds look sugar coated. Humidity and CO2 manipulation can be used to your benefit. In veg and very early in flower higher humidity and lower air flow (less CO2) causes larger leaves and greater stomata production. I don't mind a little less CO2 in the veg chamber as I just let em go longer while waiting for the flowers to finish. Drop the humidity and increase air flow and you have a great foundation based on the plants early cycle growth for awesome late stage development.

This is one of my favorite gardening topics here, humidity and resin production.

Resins are there for the plant, not humans, although it seems to work out pretty well for both.

The resins are there to reduce water loss through sweating, and to prevent the plant from getting too hot by applying it's own sunscreen.

For the sweating part (called evapotranspiration in plants), the resin glands swell during low humidity conditions to prevent water from being lost to the dry air around the plant. It's a protection scheme, a coping strategy for dry conditions.

For the sunscreen, or UV protection, the resins of this plant have one of the highest UV ratings in all the plant kingdom, making it possible to block sunlight from getting past the resin pack to the plant material inside. The reason is to prevent the inside of the plant from getting too hot, thus causing even more evapotranspiration/sweating. Cops also rely on cannabis' high UV rating to spot them easily from helocopters, since all they have to do is identify the plants that reflect the most UV... they glow like sore thumbs when seen through Babylon's super, freedom-preventing spy equipment.

So, in short, yes, absolutely humidity DOES control the resin production. As a matter of fact, my whole harvest is dependent on getting the RH as low as possible during the last few days and nights, and ESPECIALLY low on the last night before harvest morning. The difference in the end product is day and night, the herb burns smoother, gets you higher and is just 100% better than high RH harvests.

heres some proof of what i am saying... whadda you got??

 

[snowkitty]

Here is krusty on humidity


• you want your humidity running around 70% min...but towards half way thru bud you would like to keep humidity down below 85 % if you could...ideally....usually i have 95%+ type humidity towards the end of bud ...basically when they get that large and that healthy the plants create a tonne of humidity....with a ac unit you might be able to drop it to 70% humidity.....but in most cases you are lucky to get 85%.....
• do i run into problems...depends what strain....BCBB and strains that allow area between buds no problems...some powdery midlew probs at the beginning of flower or end of veg but that is taken care of easily with my burner…. if i have bushier strains then yeah the higher humidity tends to be a problem....but again i don’t think below 70% is possible....yes it is possible if you are growing plants that ain’t healthy ...but if you got 8' tall...5' x 5' plants and your maximizing yer area.....i cant see it possible to bring it below 70 % humidity at the end of bud....again if you did then at that point i think you would start to again pull too much moisture form plants and your plants would end up using more energy trying to maintain moisture in itself then producing colas....but who knows...you saw my pictures...does it look like i ever have rot problems??
• you need min 70% humidity when you are vegging or your right from the start starting off with shit:/ i cannot emphasize this enough...you have to have 70% humidity during veg and first 3-4 weeks of bud....min yer loosing 30 % of yer crop there:/
• humidity...again keep the environment stress free....you got a plant with 99 % humidity...and if you have air surrounding the plant with say 30% humidity it will draw out the moisture from the plant .....obviously the lower the rooms humidity the more the plant has to work to provide humidity until the plant actually dies off/stunts ...if you have high humidity when lights are off then low humidity when lights are on again the plant is going to get stressed because of the different environments it lives in.....now some say "well in nature the environment changes" well in nature the marijuana plant doesn’t fucking produce 1/4 lb colas
• dewd....i am sooo serious...i tell you guys over and over...but humidity will kill yer yields....especially when yer way low....25 % humidity...in such a small area...with 5,000 watts....it boggles my mind that you aint got some skinny assed plants with skinny leaves....do you notice th leaves start to fatten up once you get 75 % humidity ???
• if i had harsh humidity...as in 95% or more then obviously i would try and use as much air conditioning as possible...so that it draws out the humidity.....i would even keep the temps cooler say 80 F so that the ac unit works harder and draws even more humidity out
• for the most part it is common sense....you cant expect good crops without providing the perfect environment...but say you have to do something til you get off a good crop to make the money to buy the right equipment then so be it:/\
• try for 70% but dont kill yerself or risk shit over it....myself the little bit of moisture in air doenst bother me at al with bulbs....i have had foggers point directly at lights (by accident) and the bulbs didnt blow...in fact i think the bulbs create such a hot spot near then they seem to evaporate the fog/mist before it can touch them....so i would have to see how much water/moisture is in air to truely give you advice on this...

 

[snowkitty]

Here are some other people commenting on kbs humidity

• Krusty has said rh at 70 or so, isnt that a little high, especially in lights off? IMHO 70 is a little high, But you have to understand when you put 8-10k in a room hung vertically with no cool tubes, Then the evaporation process of the media/system will raise the RH as well as the increased respiration proccess will rapidly raise the humidity making it very difficult to get it lower than 70%. Also I’m not so sure running the usual 40-50% humidity would be healthy for large trees in this type of climate. The lower humidity would probably result in problems, Cause the heat will cause the plants to lose more moisture than they can retain, Resulting in leaf cupping and other various problems.
• I think the key is keeping humidity at or around 70%, And to have proper filtration systems in place, To properly clean the air as well as keeping the night temps around 80f if possible this will help prevent any kinda of pm problems that may occur with the higher humidity levels which are kinda needed for trees to properly grow. In the type of climate KFB growers need for growing trees.
• humidity, krusty recomends 70% while othewr growers like 50/60% i guess this depends on your situation? but you dont want to get a swing in humidity that is more than 10% between day and night!

 

[snowkitty]

Two of the other growers I trust...based on their pictures and continued presence on a number of forums over the last few years...also confirm krusty's position on humidity.

HyGradeChronic:
• use chiller/heater to 68*-72* water...higher at night....75% rh at 87*f....75* nites...
• ..... the grow room, must be made as ideal as possible. that means i keep temps around 88*f. my RH, (relative humidity), i like to keep around 70% during veg cycle.

Jalisco Kid:
• You need the high RH, and these girls will not create and maintain that rh on their own, at least not in socal. Krusty used these jet foggers(noisy) I use faran 707 humidifiers.
• I keep mine at 75% rh (lights on) until the last 10 days then I drop it to 50%. I might lose a little but when you avg all the cycles out I come out a head. When something goes wrong in this system it happens quick.

 

[Blunt_69]

Also I’m not so sure running the usual 40-50% humidity would be healthy for large trees in this type of climate. The lower humidity would probably result in problems, Cause the heat will cause the plants to lose more moisture than they can retain, Resulting in leaf cupping and other various problems.

Probably?

Im not so sure im convinced. i know areas where some of the best outdoor bud is grown, RH is not nearly as perfect, but on sunny good days 40-60% is normal. Lets remeber the optimum enviroments exists outdoors. Tree growing at it's finest.

humidity, krusty recomends 70% while other growers like 50/60% i guess this depends on your situation? but you dont want to get a swing in humidity that is more than 10% between day and night!

situation being?When a dehumidifier properly runs it will maintain rh during the day, RH will drop a few percent at night in optimum enviroment.This will entirely depends on a sealed vs non sealed room

do i run into problems...depends what strain....BCBB and strains that allow area between buds no problems...some powdery midlew probs at the beginning of flower or end of veg but that is taken care of easily with my burner….

If lower a RH was achieved, that problem doesnt exist. burners are only used minamally or not at all in all perfect enviroments.
.
Correct in the fact that the bigger trees will "breath" more causing RH to rise. I think it may be more of a matter of humidity becoming hard to control when large trees are grown in a confined space which is true.

Outdoors RH is more effected by precipitation weather patterns.

In all sealed enviroments ive seen and researched about. RH is set and maintained at 40-60%, sometimes lower as harvest approaches.Some claim 40% is perfect.
All i know is these rooms are the biggest yeilders out of them all, doesnt matter the hydro method,style or strain type.Completely sealed and controlled enviroments are the most efficient.

Higher Rh puts your crop at higher risk of mold and bud rot. Also puts a improperly vented dewlling at risk for black mold growth.

Im just not understanding the theory behind running such a high RH, trees or shrubs makes no sense to me.

Not trying to come off as a dick here, im just looking fo the actual data that supports this statment. So far the theory makes no sense.

My buddy had a bunch of trees in a big greenhouse.. he lost a good 40% of that to bud rot because the greenhouse maintained 70+ humidity, great for vegtables, not good for flowers.

I still maintain that high RH is not a good thing nor reccommend anyone to try and induce RH with misters(this can be catastrophic to open bulbs)

 

[been]

Yo Blunted!... Kitty is going by what Krusty actually did. I don't think she's trying to convince anyone to do anything that they wouldn't be comfortable with. This is a KBS thread. It's not a primer on indoor growing.

 

[purpledomgoddes]

re-post from this thread.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=112589

ran krusty buckets+couple other methods. rh (vapor pressure dificit), as long as in plants comfort zone, ~30-75% rh, can be set at any point w/ in range. then manipulated +/- during the season, depending on maturation stage, to get desired result.

this is inverse of root uptake. can actually make plant absorb more water by lower rh, or make drink less by higher rh. plant senses the pressure of the surrounding water vapor and then decides whether or not to exchange vapors/gases. root temps, ambient temps, actual leaf temps, air flow, etc all factors.

rh/vapor pressure
relative humidity is an expression of the actual water vapor pressure, expressed as a percentage of the maximum water vapor pressure possible under certain air+atmospheric pressure conditions.

@ room temp (~60*f), 100% humidity exerts a vapor pressure of 24 torr (~4.65 pound-force per sq "[24*{19.337*10^-3}]=4.65 psi pound-force). >24 torr of vapor pressure exerted on leaves, and leaves sense a vapor pressure deficit.

leaves stomata opening/closing influenced by difference between internal/external vapor pressure. opening/closing of stomata regulates gas exchange+transpiration, which in turn regulates growth/fruiting.

vapor pressure deficit is a lack of water pressure upon plant. this would be a low rh. it is indirect measure of water loss from plant. as plant attemps to balance internal/external vapor pressures, they draw up more water from roots and transpire it into the atmosphere. hence the de-humidifiers used in gardens.

air movement over plant+high temps+low rh reduce plants available water for sugar production. the roots uptake much more water during low rh. but all inter-related to ambient temp(avg. surrounding air temp), actual leaf temp, and root temp.

a 3'x3' plant can transpire a gal. during high vpd (low rh), or a cup during low vpd (high rh). vpd/rh measurements must take into account air temps.
generally, keeping rh as high as possible (~55-75%) keeps the plant in a comfort zone to its genetic desires. lowering rh provides a method of tailoring nute formulas, pushing parameters, etc - as they will be taking up much more water. keep in mind that the water uptake during low rh is mostly just that - water. keeping nute ppm/ec in balance w/ ph is good idea.

prevention of mold/diseases/condensation is the reason for decreasing rh, but it can be higher w/ air exchange/movement w/ tempered evaporation (air movement over/around plants). also, growth slows during high rh, but in fruiting, slow growth is not an issue, fruit production is. lower rh also increases translocation of calcium (why gardeners use calcium additives during fruiting - it is sent to every part of plant during increased water uptake via roots).

not having problems because the plants' comfort zone is pretty broad w/ comparable temps+air movement - just like there's a 'domain+range', so to speak, in nute levels, etc.

note: in general...
lower rh(high vpd)=increased transpiration, translocation, water uptake, greater calcium absorption/transport.

higher rh(low vpd)=slower transpiration, translocation, water uptake, slower evaporation, increased growth.

rh does not need to be >50%, it needs to be tailored to specific environment, w/ specific temps/air circ variables accounted for. can manipulate growth/water uptake from that comfort zone point (~45-65%, again, depending on gardens other inputs).

hope this helps. enjoy your vegetables+garden!

 

[snowkitty]

Yo Blunted!... Kitty is going by what Krusty actually did. I don't think she's trying to convince anyone to do anything that they wouldn't be comfortable with. This is a KBS thread. It's not a primer on indoor growing.

Yep, I'll do like the crazy klown said and grow me some treez...i've seen the results again and again for years...it's not hard to become a krusty fankid reading posts on icmag and other sites... But to each his own...of course...

note: in general...
lower rh(high vpd)=increased transpiration, translocation, water uptake, greater calcium absorption/transport.

higher rh(low vpd)=slower transpiration, translocation, water uptake, slower evaporation, increased growth.

rh does not need to be >50%, it needs to be tailored to specific environment, w/ specific temps/air circ variables accounted for. can manipulate growth/water uptake from that comfort zone point (~45-65%, again, depending on gardens other inputs).

hope this helps. enjoy your vegetables+garden!

Dom Goddess, thanks for translating krusty's kewl dewd ramblings into some science!! I'd picked up that transpiration was the issue. Esp in the early stages during veg, you don't want your plants to be losing water to the environment. But in late budding big healthy plants are going to be producing a lot of water of their own so you'll actually be fighting the humidity in the room with your a/c. ...I think I have that right.

It does sound like the right combination of variables is what I need...but if I do end up needing to increase my RH in my greenhouse I'd like to have a product to do it with...

been, thanks for all the links to humidity solutions...lots of options for me to start learning about...

 

[snowkitty]

Over in your other thread, Dom Goddess, I like this summary about when and why different rh levels are desired:

higher rh promotes growth, as plant is not using energy to simply transpire in attempt to balance in/out vpd. as fruiting commences, nutes+light regime+lower rh encourages fruiting. plant has broad comfort range and will adapt to changes within range.

higher rh w/ good air flow is doable. plant will draw up less root-zone water/transpire less. gardeners seek to 'push' the plant during flowering/fruiting by reducing rh for greater nute absoption/water uptake.

yield is inter-related to all garden variables: cultivar, rh(vpd), diff, root-zone temps+mass, light regime(s), etc. hard to standardize yield assesments w/ thousands of cultivars/various garden environmentals.

plants will uptake+transpire more h20(water) during low rh. nute assimilation/absoption is non-linear/non-correlative to water absorption. the plant will not use as much nutes as water during low rh, as plants only have a need for/can only process a limited amount of nutrients. they need water 100% of the time.

if the garden is producing good vegetables, keep the comfort zone you have established for your own particular environment, regardless of what books/threads, etc say. best indicator of good garden is gardener's own pleasure w/ fruits/vegetables.

 

[Blunt_69]

purpledomgoddes - nice post. Thats exactly what i was looking for..Thankyou

SK - no offence i hope, Im still learning to, ive got a good background in hydro. I consiter myself above average grower, but nowhere near expert.

Thanks to that bit of information what you are saying now makes sense. Krusty knows what he is doing, no doubt. A new grower might not be as successful with what he is asking of a room. I know higher RH introduces more chances of problems, that may be managable to the seasoned grower.

I find these two paragraphs interesting..

prevention of mold/diseases/condensation is the reason for decreasing rh, but it can be higher w/ air exchange/movement w/ tempered evaporation (air movement over/around plants). also, growth slows during high rh, but in fruiting, slow growth is not an issue, fruit production is. lower rh also increases translocation of calcium (why gardeners use calcium additives during fruiting - it is sent to every part of plant during increased water uptake via roots).

rh does not need to be >50%, it needs to be tailored to specific environment, w/ specific temps/air circ variables accounted for. can manipulate growth/water uptake from that comfort zone point (~45-65%, again, depending on gardens other inputs).

gardeners seek to 'push' the plant during flowering/fruiting by reducing rh for greater nute absoption/water uptake.

I finally get it!

Its an energy saved to better fruit (we are talking flower here)vs pumping the plant with more water and nutrients which also pushs growth potential.I can also see the reason to run RH high in a system that uses ALOT of water.

Interesting... Nice post SK, think blunt69 learned somthing today!!

I'd still try and keep the rh down if i was a new grower, and advancing from there.I'll certinly will play with this idea!

here is a brotha that knows his buckets
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=12454&highlight=krusty+freedom+buckets

 

[clide]

purpledomgoddes - nice post. Thats exactly what i was looking for..Thankyou

SK - no offence i hope, Im still learning to, ive got a good background in hydro. I consiter myself above average grower, but nowhere near expert.

Thanks to that bit of information what you are saying now makes sense. Krusty knows what he is doing, no doubt. A new grower might not be as successful with what he is asking of a room. I know higher RH introduces more chances of problems, that may be managable to the seasoned grower.

I find these two paragraphs interesting..








I finally get it!

Its an energy saved to better fruit (we are talking flower here)vs pumping the plant with more water and nutrients which also pushs growth potential.I can also see the reason to run RH high in a system that uses ALOT of water.

Interesting... Nice post SK, think blunt69 learned somthing today!!

I'd still try and keep the rh down if i was a new grower, and advancing from there.I'll certinly will play with this idea!

here is a brotha that knows his buckets
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=12454&highlight=krusty+freedom+buckets

and another one was hooked into krusty's diabolical world of buckets and vertical growing, muahahahahahahahaha:friends:

 

[purpledomgoddes]

thx 4 the positive feedback.

hope data helps every one enjoy their garden - even more!

 

[~SYK~]

THIS : http://www.hydrofogger.com/

is the fogger you want.

I started out with the industrial foggers for applying chemicals in a fog cloud to chicken coops (originally suggested by the K idiot himself)

I then tried making my own homemade foggers using ultrasonic discs (waste of time)

Now ... I just bite the bullet and purchase one of these for $550 when I need it.

Actually, I imported my last 6 from the manufacturer, however I wouldnt suggest doing that as you will run into problems with customs you may not have planned for (mine was an extra bill for about $500!)

Good Luck.

Hope it Helps

SYK