Using mineral additives...

[Suby]

Hello Fellow Organic Lovers,

I was doing my weekly organic research when I started looking into mineral additives.
I usually just post my info in the OFC thread but this deserves it's own attention.
I has come to my attention that not all organic "experts" are agreed as to the uses and benefits or even the "organicity" of using mineral rock dusts/salts.
Most of this info is from forums, I notice often that organic gardening info is often dated and oldschool, there is alot of research in organic farming although not much inteligent up to date info sufaces as often as we would like.

I would think twice before I used any gypsum. Gypsum is a salt, and as such, in the concentrations typically used, this application KILLS the biology that will do the conversion of the plant not-available forms into plant available forms. Gypsum will lead to turning your soil into concrete, especially when you experience dry conditions. Check out how air plane landing fields were made back in WWII. The sum total of adding more than 100 pounds of any salt per acre is to force you into pesticide and toxic chemical use. 100 pounds per acre is less than a handful of the salt on your typical urban size lot. Calcium sulfate, the sulfur kills beneficial fungi. The impact on mycorrhizal fungi is tremendously negative. You might as well just start over again trying to get the mycorrhizae back into the system if you choose to use significant concentrations of gypsum.

You can't buffer inorganic materials to make them "safe". No matter what games you play with ph, lime or gypsum are still salts. You cannot escape their impact on the biology. Use compost to which you have added eggshells, or lime, in order to get the organisms in the compost to turn the calcium into a biologically active form which does not harm organisms.

From the same poster:

Lime is calcium carbonate.

Gypsum is calcium sulfate.

Dolomite contains a significant amount of magnesium, enough to drive the calcium to magnesium ratio in the "wrong" direction.

Tightness of the soil is typically dependent on the Ca:Mg. The stickier the soil is, the higher the magnesium relative to calcium. Most soils in the US need a Ca:Mg ratio of around 6:1 to 7:1 to flocculate the clays.

Of course this one factor alone will not build soil structure, it is just an initial step that needs to occur to move in the right direction.

But what most people don't realize is that lime, gypsum or dolomite are all salts. Salts remove water from the available pool. And the negative impact is on the microbes in the soil long before there is an impact on the plant. Although, you can overdo even lime applications and have serious salt impacts on your plants.

My recommendation is, once you have started to revive the biology in your soil, add soluble calcium to the compost, or to the tea, rather than use salts on the soil directly.

Once you have the life back in the soil, the bacteria and fungi control soil pH. Keep the organisms fed and happy, relative to the plants you want, and then only when nature sends an un-usual weather event do you have to do anything to help the soil return to a condition of health.

Don't get me wrong, I love Dolomite Lime and for a Mg hog like Marijuana it is a perfect additive, but I compost my mix before planting in it thereby reinocualting the medium with beneficials.
With a product like SulpoMag it is water soluble so it is often applied as liquid fert which seems to not be in the best interest of our soil biology.

Suby

I will add to this thread as I furrow some more.

 

[Suby]

Anything containing sulfur seems to do a huge job against the beneficial fungi. Avoid gypsum. Avoid SulPoMag. Avoid any sulfur base anything, or you wipe out your beneficial fungi which inhibit and compete with the disease causing fungi.

It's been a long standing debate whether mineral additives, even the slow release ones are really organic as they are in fact salts that break down regardless of soil activity, they don't require the microherd to chew the ferts for the plant, they are slowly made availble.

I'm on the fence for now.

Suby

Using those items that I discussed will kill the soil biology that you need for healthy soil. You don't want to use lime, gypsum, sulfur...all of which kill the soil organisms. There are better ways to add CA to your soil or to correct one's soil pH. Sulfur kills off, in particular, fungi in your soil, rather dramatically. Especially Mycorrhiza Fungi.

Regardless of what the NOFA and NOP Standards state, those items should not be used, period. I have no confusion about them. It's hard for me to believe that anyone who wants to employ organic practices to have little or no understanding of soil biology. You need to have a basic understanding of the soil foodweb if you want to be successful with organics. I have posted elsewhere for an online text of the Soil Biology Primer. Everyone needs to be familiar with this subject before you start adding things to your soil that will kill off the very organims you need!

 

[Relik]

I knew about the use of sulphur as a fungicide, but I thought you needed a bit more than small quantities in order to achieve the effect. I usually throw a bit of potassium sulfate in my flower soil mixes... if that kills the microherd, I think it does not selectively kill the good folks, does it? I would think it kills everything... not sure though, but wouldn't that be a good thing if you could reinnoculate the mix after getting rid of nasties?

Just thinking, this is an interesting thread Suby.

Cheers

 

[BurnOne]

Suby-
Nice work as usual.
I don't think using dolomite at 2 tbs./gal. of peat or coir is going to hurt anything. That post looked to me like it was speaking of clay based compacted mediums. So, I think we are spot on in using dolomite as we suggest. Don't you?
Burn1

 

[Ganico]

I don't know, but I'm now too scared to use dolomite lime, haha.

 

[inflorescence]

I agree with not using gypsum or sulpomag but dolomite does not contain sulfur so the fungi are safe in that respect. Yes, dolo is a salt and can cause dehydration of the soil as well as soil structure problems but it is also a good buffer and I'm not so convinced that by not having it the battle between the fungi and bacteria will "control the pH". It may keep the pH in check for them to live but would that pH be also the most beneficial for the plant?

 

[Suby]

Hey B1, nice to see you around lately.

Yes I think dolomite lime is perfectly safe as it's not 100% water soluble so it puts itself in a slow release amendment category IMHO.
I think sulphur based products are more of a danger from the little I have found on the subject, I have found little relating directly to this on Google, I'll keep trying.
It seems widely accepted as organic but the hardcores in the forums are objecting and stating what I've always known, just because the OMRI says it's OK doesn't mean it's 100% safe for soil life, I'm sure some of what we feed the plant disrupts the soil life cycle one way or another but it seems salt buildup can be a factor especially for those soil recycling and using outdoor plots to grow.
Dolomite is rarely used in farming because most plants consume calcium faster than magnesium, this leaves more and more Mg built up in the soil, However MJ love Magnesium and need lot of it so even recycled soil stays relatively well balanced over time, Gypsum seems to be the main concern and other similar products.

These discussions are usually concerning farm soil or alternately turf or lawncare. These require, as B1 points out so wisely, soil structure seing as Mg seems to clump soil and keep it's binding structure and large amounts of gypsum does the opposite. Also it has alot to do with what you want to add to your soil, a fully organic and buffered soil that is actively breaking down organic elements into humic substances doesn't require as much balancing ph wise but dolomite is a sacred element in my grows.

Suby

I'm expecting JayKush to chime in with an amazing link anytime know lol...