understanding cannabinoid profiles

[Picarus]

Not sure if this is the appropriate place to ask a question about lab results but I am in need of some clarification. I have been getting my flowers tested for about a year now. Having numerical data sets to compare to perceived effects has be very enlightening, but I am still having trouble fulling understanding the data.

First, THC delta-9
Merit is given to THC content as a whole but very little is given to delta-9 THC which is the psychoactive element, allegedly. Can anyone explain the merit of the delta-9 THC to me. I believe it is more important than the total THC content. I feel a stronger effect when more delta-9 is present even if the total THC is lower between varieties.

Second, terpenes and flavors
I believe some confusion is starting as terpenes gain notoriety. Terpenes and flavor are connected but not the same. I have two samples, two phenotypes of the same variety, Kosher Kush bx. The lab results concerning terpenes are almost identical with only small variance in total concentration, but the same terpenes are present in the same ratios in both samples. The two samples have similar smells but the taste sets them apart. One is distinctly citrus and the other is woody and exotic, no citrus at all. Yet the limonene terpene level is the same amongst the two. Could terpenes attribute more to smell and less to actual taste? Obviously some will burn off more quickly than others with lower boiling point and other chemical attributes.
I also have experienced that one of my best tasting, I mean stick in your mouth flavor, and smelling flowers is incredibly low in terpene concentration and has no outliers to speak of. How is this explained?
There must be other mechanisms at work here conctributing flavors and smells.

The result of this is people who don't lab test their flowers claiming things about terpene concentrations based on their taste and smell experience, which is still important, but is not actually related to the terpenes, which do actually have their own benefits.

Any help or insight is appreciated!

attached is Ghost Train Haze #1 which tested at 1.66% total terpinolene alone!

 

[FoothillFarming]

I have many of the same questions. Tagged.

 

[Picarus]

welcome. Tried talking with SCLabs about it. They are great at everything except explaining delta-9 THC.

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

Post some of your lab results and point out the specific bits you're talking about. Do you just mean the Delta-9 as opposed to the THCA? That Delta-9 is the fraction of your THC that has already decarboxylated "on the vine" or in some other way before you sent it to the lab.

 

[shishkaboy]

Have you tried different labs with the same batches before?


Good topic.

 

[Picarus]

I am not interested in the THCa. I understand that the delta-9 THC is the essentially the decarbed portion but how does that translate to effect? I hypothesize it helps the onset quickness, but have such a limited data set. Most of the varieties I have tested are around .50% but I have recently seen some outliers. I'll try to get some tests up for analysis.
I have only used SC so far.

 

[Oregonism]

Entourage effect was coined in a 89? paper, maybe 99, with partial authorship from Mechoulem.

Not to add more to this, but just recently a conference from Cannamed 2016, contained some very interesting interpretations...One gentlemen's presentation focused on terp profile and the most recent Emerald Cup, one slide was very interesting, showing the mean of overall terpenoids sampled was 2.1% higher in Cup Winners, than the rest of the cup entrants.

You can find the CannaMed 2016 presentations online and actually I believe the video was released on the 29th of last month, shit, I have to go check that out personally, I have only reviewed the PowerPoint slides.

I will try and dig the Entourage paper out, I think it needs more assessment after all this time. Peace and chicken grease.

 

[Betterhaff]

Taming THC, Ethan Russo

http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Taming-THC-Russo.pdf

 

[Picarus]

How Terpenes Relate to Flavor

How Terpenes Relate to Flavor

Here are two lab test results of keepers from a Kosher Kush s-1 seed run. They were both selected b/c Wedgie Meatball is a great example of the Kosher line, but Cedar Point has the citrus completely replaced with a cedar/exotic wood flavor. Yet the terpene results are almost identical.

Just to reiterate the question concerns the relation of terpene profile to taste/flavor, and delta-9 THC to effect.

Would one surmise that if a test is higher in delta-9 THC that the flower is overripe? Or do some flowers just produce more readily available delta-9 THC?

 

[Picarus]

pics are garbage, here are pdf's

 

[whereisbrianV.]

There is enough variance in the terpenes to account for two distinct flavors. What we experience as a cannabis flavor is really a combination of all of the terpenes interacting and this can cause a few tenths of a percent of one terpene to have a drastic effect on the perceived flavor.

To add to the confusion terpenes have different aromas depending on how they were metabolized. A limonene from a tangerine will have a distinct aroma of the tangerine compared to a limonene from a lemon which will smell more like lemons. This is the same terpene chemically but the perceived effects are different.

Hope that helps...

 

[Picarus]

I wish it did, but it only muddies the water.

-First point is interesting considering concentrations don't seem to be the only thing causing smells and flavors. While higher concentrations do usually also come with stronger flavor and smell, some with a lower than average concentration still have a very strong smell/flavor.

-Can you explain how it is metabolized a bit more?

-What are the most sought after terpenes, and what are the most rare to find in large amount in your experience?

 

[Picarus]

Also wondering if anyone has a legit OG Kush terpene profile. The Wedgie Meatball has a great coat your mouth OG flavor. Curious how its concentration stacks up against the original.

 

[Chunkypigs]

I am not interested in the THCa. I understand that the delta-9 THC is the essentially the decarbed portion but how does that translate to effect? I hypothesize it helps the onset quickness, but have such a limited data set. Most of the varieties I have tested are around .50% but I have recently seen some outliers. I'll try to get some tests up for analysis.
I have only used SC so far.

if you are inhaling heated cannabis for effect the thca is decarbed. onset quickness is modified by the other active compounds.

Here are two lab test results of keepers from a Kosher Kush s-1 seed run. They were both selected b/c Wedgie Meatball is a great example of the Kosher line, but Cedar Point has the citrus completely replaced with a cedar/exotic wood flavor. Yet the terpene results are almost identical.

Just to reiterate the question concerns the relation of terpene profile to taste/flavor, and delta-9 THC to effect.

Would one surmise that if a test is higher in delta-9 THC that the flower is overripe? Or do some flowers just produce more readily available delta-9 THC?

heat and oxidation are responsible for delta nine content in your test results.
I'll bet these buds that are inches from a bare 1000 watt bulb test higher in delta nine than the bottoms.

….First point is interesting considering concentrations don't seem to be the only thing causing smells and flavors. While higher concentrations do usually also come with stronger flavor and smell, some with a lower than average concentration still have a very strong smell/flavor.

todays cannabis testing labs only have access to a few terpene standards and there are hundreds of volatile compounds that are still unnamed in the plant.

even if the profiles look similar for the few terpenes and cannabiniods they are testing for you can see for yourself that the aroma and effects can vary wildly.

if you look at many tests you can begin to see what looks like a fingerprint for strain identification but we are only seeing a few dozen of hundreds of compounds.

I have 4 diseases that I treat with medical cannabis and I spent 5 years with a Cali med card traveling the state and trying hundreds of strains looking for relief.

you can train your nose in way that science has not equalled.
the best part is that I can now smell and identify strains that have side effects that I find unpleasant.
probably 60% or more of mmj I've tried has effects that don't suit me. it might get me really high but not in a way I enjoy or care to repeat.

A very small percentage makes me feel great even when I'm very ill.
those are usually the varieties people write songs about.

I really want to have a name of a compound or compounds that I can associate with these effects but it seems too early for that.

Also wondering if anyone has a legit OG Kush terpene profile. The Wedgie Meatball has a great coat your mouth OG flavor. Curious how its concentration stacks up against the original.

there are testing labs from cali to WA that post their results online.

it's easy to filter SClabs test results to only show flowers tested for terpenes and I've been reviewing their OG, Cookie, and Glue tests for years looking to see how consistent samples look.

one Seattle lab runs a terpene test on every sample and you can get lots of info from them.

a big LA lab did a study on OG terp profiles and "fingerprinting" a while back.

you can't get people to agree which OG is original so who's got the legit profile?

A factor is that terpene and cannabinoid content is hugely affected by grower inputs, environment, light intensity and type and when the plant is harvested.

I've seen rare tests with plants in the 7-11% terpene range and the best clone onlys that are winning cups can be very rich when grown well.

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

Also wondering if anyone has a legit OG Kush terpene profile. The Wedgie Meatball has a great coat your mouth OG flavor. Curious how its concentration stacks up against the original.

The testing labs might be good with the high tech stuff, but I don't see how they're gonna get lab results from the 1990s to compare with.

 

[Picarus]

heat and oxidation are responsible for delta nine content in your test results.
I'll bet these buds that are inches from a bare 1000 watt bulb test higher in delta nine than the bottoms.
I don't think this is true. I see the same strains test higher than the others consistently. While most of my tests come out around 0.5% delta-9 THC but my outliers are around 2-3%. I take a sampling of buds randomly.

The testing labs might be good with the high tech stuff, but I don't see how they're gonna get lab results from the 1990s to compare with.
I was still running my original OG from back in the 6k/lb LA days up until about a year and a half ago. They are out there but, I am not going to just search randomly as the name has gotten spread very thin.

 

[Donn]

The two samples have similar smells but the taste sets them apart. One is distinctly citrus and the other is woody and exotic, no citrus at all. Yet the limonene terpene level is the same amongst the two. Could terpenes attribute more to smell and less to actual taste?

Interesting observations, it's great to see someone thinking for himself! Or herself as the case may be. My thoughts:

1. Citrus peel and limonene - Limonene is present at what should be a dominant level in orange, lemon etc., but they don't all smell "like limonene", they smell like orange, lemon etc., because there's a lot going on in there and for all that there's a lot of limonene in there, it looks to me like it's kind of a background effect. More on that: http://www.aromaticplantproject.com/articles_archive/citrus_essential_oils.html. The high numbers for percent limonene in orange essential oil might be misleading - I'm just guessing off the top of my head, that in the distillation process that produces these oils some of the most fragrant components are degraded much faster than the relatively stable limonene (which among other things is popular for stripping paint)

2. "Taste" strictly speaking accounts for sour, salty, sweet etc. If you can get the stuff through your mouth without any getting in your nose, you won't taste limonene or anything like it - that's all smell.

 

[Picarus]

Thanks Donn.