Underfed?

[Ziggaro]

hey guys, here w/my 2nd run trying some different genetics to see what I like. I've always had great help in the past I'm hoping to get some advice Thankyou!

SOIL:
What STRAIN are you growing? WW and AK48 (nirvana)
What was the establishing technique? seed
What is the age of your plants? 3 weeks
How Tall are the plants? 3-5 inches
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? seedling/veg
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) n/a
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 9 oz cups
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) 50% Sunshine Organic Planting Mix (~85% Spaghnum w/dolomite addded) 50% MG enriched perlite (decimal NPK values)
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? I used about 1/8 tsp/gal EJ Grow (2.1.1) at 2 weeks, and gave 1/4 tsp EJ grow and 1/8th tsp/gal EJ Catalyst yesterday.
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? Measures 117 but organic ppm i hear is funny
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? low 6
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? strips
How often are you watering? when they are light about every 4-5 days
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? fed once at 2 weeks and yesterday once
What size bulb are you using? 600watt hps
What is the distance to the canopy? 30"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 35
What is the canopy temperature? 80
What is the Day/Night Temp? 65-80
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 400
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? no
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? no
Is your water HARD or SOFT? 50 ppm from tap
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? no
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? no
Are plant's infected with pest's? i have seen 2 fungus flies in the 3 weeks but nothing this past week.

 

[MynameStitch]

Those are burned; that perlite has timed released fert; those plants are also rootbound.... I would flush out those plants; not to mention with the feeding you have been giving them; they are burned.....

I would flush them plants out with about a gallon each.......

The plants look underfed; but nitrogen is being locked out; meaning too much nutrients are locking out nitrogen; so you will need to flush as much as possible; get them into new pots and do not use MG perlite..... get some without the timed released ferts......

with the adding feedings you gave them even as small as it is; with the size plants you have it is too much for them.......

You say pH is low 6; what is the exactly the pH. 6.3? 6.1?

But ya those are being burned ya gotta get them flushed; and after they get flushed wait about a week before feeding them... let them recover first before giving them anotehr feeding.

Feed every 5 to 7 days and do not listen to the directions on your bottle; when you start to feed again start off with 1/2 teaspoon of EJ grow and 1/2 teaspoon of catalyst....
You also need to let them sit for over 24 hours before using them; cause when you mix them the pH is acidic and the pH needs to stabilize before you use it.

That is why I was asking exactly what your pH was..... cause those nutrients are acidic when you use them and mix them with water.....

 

[Core]

mmmh 117 ppm's would't do that to a plant..even a seedling...

 

[Ziggaro]

Hey thanx for the speedy replies guys!

Stitch- Man am I burning my babes again? That perlite reads .04-.01-.06 if stuff like this is dangerous how can I ever tell what is OK and what is not? I don't find any other nutrient info on the bag. I only fed them a few droplets of grow the 1st time, and then only with a 1/4 teaspoon afterwards. Man I feel so hopeless
(btw pH ranges a little between the different plants, but the range is 6.0 to 6.3)

Core- yes I hear 117 PPMs is OK for seedlings too, but organics read different from what I understand. Even with a full tablespoon of EJ Grow/gallon I only get a reading of about 150 PPMS

(also, I tested the MG perlite by filling a cup w/it and letting runnoff escape out of holes in the bottom. I used my 50 ppm tap and it came out the other end at 190 ppm! LESSON LEARNED ON MG!)

Might have to start this one over again and keep the babes that are still doin good :S Either way, today I'm gonna go get some chunky FF perlite, some more organic sunshine planting mix, and some bigger pots and see how it turns out.

 

[MynameStitch]

a full tablespoon of earthjuice is not going to read 150 pms; your meter has to be broke..... or your not letting EJ sit over night before using it


The stuff that is in the perlite is timed release so you don't know how much it is getting and how much it's not getting; and timed released ferts can release faster in colder situations like cold water and such.......

if the plants were bigger you can use the perlite.
See the problem is; seedlings this size should not be fed period; with the mixture you have them in that is.

See the cotyldons on the plant? they are still green with a slight yellow tint to one of them; this tells me the plant still has left over food in there; if it was a deficiency those cotyldons would have been fallen off.

So if there is still food left in there and the plant is showing a deficiency; this leads me to one thing it's gotta be burned...... cause even if the pH is off the cotyldons would still be able to transport food into the plant; it just would be using it up faster if there was a pH issue and they would have fallen off long ago; so pH is fine..... there is only one other explanation to this...... the plant is absorbing other food somewhere else and it's not from the cotyledons......

When you mix earthjuice grow you are supossed to let it sit out 24 hours before you use it; this is possibly why your ppm meter is telling you it's only 150ppm's

earthjuice needs time to breakdown and mix with the water; it needs aierated 24 hours prior to use; if you use a gallon jug you need to shake it up good every few hours to keep it going.

Watch; let it set out for 24 hours and then test what your nutrient solution is; I bet it changes.

Edit: I type as I go along reading someone's post; the post below I typed before I got to the part that said you already did this below lol

Ya; 117 is fine for seedlings; but there is no way those plants are only getting 117 ppm' when you water your plant did you test the run off and get the ppms? Or are you just testing the grow?

Water and collect the run off and then test the TDS.

Those pots you got them in are fine and will help you preventing you from overwatering; you can use those; ya don't need bigger pots when you start up with plants smaller up to the size they are now.

You can fix these guys if you want; just flush them out with a lot of water untill the tds comes out sorta low; mostly you may need up to 2 gallons of water... since they are in small cups they won't show over watering as badly.......

You can buy a lot of things in the store that is good; you just got to stay away from stuff that says contnious feeding for up to such and such months; and timed released ferts; you want to stay away from that. I used to use MG products they grow some SERIOUS bud if used right; but there is no way you can listen to there directions on the back of there box/bottle; with MG products if you use them you want to start out with 1/2 teaspoon per gallon and I beefed it up to 1 tsp once my plant hit 4 feet tall.

So that will show you how strong the stuff is....

This is not your fault this time; you did not know about the perlite stuff; but now ya do

Don't get upset about it; shit happens; but at least now ya know what to look for and what not to look for

For seedlings; the best mix to use is seed starter mixture; and MG ime makes one of the best mixtures for cannabis seedlings; you get a perfect mixture and a perfect start; no messing with the PH or nothing; so if you can get your hand on a bag of that and use some other kind after 2 weeks your good as gold with a nice start!

 

[Ziggaro]

I transplanted into bigger pots with new medium (sunshine organic planting mix with chunky hydrofarm perlite in 2L pots) and the first reading I got for runoff was 450ppm. I discarded this and put about 2 cups through and the runoff read 350, and after doing this twice more the ppm read 150 which is where i stopped. Should the ppms decrease that quickly or do you think my pen is screwed? I just got the thing..
I was hoping transplanting to a fresh, nute free medium would be better than flushing with all that water. But why would the runoff from it read so much higher in ppm at first?
Please help I'm so confused

 

[MynameStitch]

164 could burn them; but the reason why they are burned; they were in this mixture from seedling correct? so they were having problems very slowly...... if it was introduced to them like now; they would not have had an issue like this......

MG is extremley strong stuff and a small amount goes a long way.....
and since timed released ferts can release some now and more later you don't know how much it's releasing; not to mention your plants are 3 weeks old; so water after water would leech some out of the soil and be weaker by now.

That also depends on how much perlite is also added to the mixture; you would have to mix the same exact amount of soil and perlite together to get the real reading of what ppms it would be fresh like it was......

Nute burn can happy quickly or build up over time; all depends.
Did you reuse your calbration solution?
The meter you have is not bad one; hanna makes good products...... but I will also say this; the meter is only as good as the probe that is with the meter; so the meter is an accurate one so I would keep the meter; but get some new calibration solution.
I would never reuse it but more than once; cause of cross contamination and such; left over residue from the probe does get into the mixture and eventually cause a fluctuation.
They say not to re-use it; but if you have to reuse it; would not do it more than once.

 

[Ziggaro]

164 could burn them; but the reason why they are burned; they were in this mixture from seedling correct? so they were having problems very slowly...... if it was introduced to them like now; they would not have had an issue like this......

Yeah they were in rapid rooters for about 5 days (2nd set of leaves just starting) before they were put into a mix of about 50% MG perlite and 50% sunshine organic planting mix.

I'm gonna play it safe and wait a week to feed them anything, since they should be in a safe medium now. I'll let yas know what happens. Thanx!!

(btw I'm growing 2 strains and it seems just the AK's are burned, and the WWs have yellowed and dying petioles with yellowing first leaves and some brown spots. Do I need to treat these as different cases, or is it just more burn?)

 

[MynameStitch]

they ones that have yellowing leaves has lockout going; they should never show a problem while the cotyldons are still in tact, even if the cotyldons are yellowing a bit; there should still be green on the plants; that just means the plants were using a lot of the nutrients; yellowed cotyldons means the plants removed food from it; so that means the plant was soon to start needing to be fed or start usoing the stored nutrients from the soil.

So either way they still should not have been fed yet, because your mixture was still good......

but, most likely in a week they would have needed to start to be fed anyways

 

[Ziggaro]

tomorrow is the day!

tomorrow is the day!

So tomorrow will mark the 7th day of my plants being in a fertless mix.
Tonight I mixed up some nutrients to give them time to bubble and heres what I added to a gallone of water.

1/2 tsp Earth Juice grow
1/2 tsp Earth Juice Catalyst
1/4 tsp Earth juice Meta-K
1/2 tsp Aggrene Liquid Lime (about 150ppms when added to 50 ppm water)

Liquid Lime:
Total Calcium- 7.0%
CaCO3- 17.0%
CaO- 9.8%
Total Mag- 4.0%
MgCO3- 14.0%
mgO- 6.7%
Calcium Carbonate Equivilent- 22.0%
Solids- 30%
Directions for houseplants- mix 3 ounces with 1 gallon of water
Derived from dolomitic limestone

think I'll be alright or is that too much stuff?? Most plants have 6 sets of leaves now, and the cotyldons if not shriveled and fallen off, are shriveling and completely yellow.

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi there Zig, hi Stitch.

Hope your garden is improving.

Are you growing those under 600 hps? Might be too strong and wrong spectrum for those little girls.

That dose seems good to me, half strength. You will probably need your fert solution to be higher ph to counter the low ph of the peat in your mix, plus as Stitch said, the acidic EJ. Guano and fishmeal based ferts are usually acidic. Lime is alkaline, I'd imagine CalMag is too.

Is you tap water chlorinated? If so, it should be left to open air or bubbled overnight to release the chlorine from the water as a gas. Chlorine has a ph of 11 and will affect your fert ph as it gasses off and your ph gradually drops.

Also, if you find you get a lot of calcium spots and buildup around your taps there may be enough cal and mag for most of the growing phase, but more is needed just before and a few weeks into flowering.

 

[MynameStitch]

Hey there petey!


Ya petey has a very good point about the 600 watter and the tap water! , they have 6 sets of leaves on them now? How tall are they now?

When you mix earthjuice, you don't have to let it sit out 24 hours, but I would; the benefits of it come out better when it's sat out I think. I used earthjuce and I loved there products and I had excellent results with mine, all strains I grown.
the pH will rise a bit after you mix all that earthjuice together and since your using a lot of there products; I would let it sit out and test the pH after 24 hours, but after sitting for 24 hours shake real good before testing the pH, it will end up rising; so when you use lime in the mixture to balance out the pH, you are not sure what the pH is going to be unless you already mix it, so if it mixes to a 4 pH and ends up being a value of 5.9 or something like that after sitting out for 24 hours then you know how much you need to add for it to be brought up to that pH, so you can let it sit out for 24 hours once and then you will know how much lime y ou need to add, won't be much at all.

That is if you don't want to let it sit out 24 hours everytime.
It's not mandatory, but it is if your adding a pH adjuster to it; you have to at least let it sit out once sio you know with that mixture, what pH value it's going to jump; that way you don't add too much pH adjuster and screw with the pH thinking your putting it in at a certain pH and it comes out a different story lol.

 

[Ziggaro]

Thanx Pete. Most of the plants do look better since I transplanted. I popped my seeds under the light last time, cos I keep it pretty far away (30") so I think that part is OK. I am letting my water sit out before using it for feeding or mixing. I am bubbling the nutes now which are at 4.5 pH, but they'll be up near 7 within 24 hrs. The pH of the mix isn't too bad since its soilless. Its at 6.1 currently. The plants growth really picked back up, but I can see some pottassium spots on one of them, and all of them have yellow cotyldons and 1 blade leaves. My tap water comes out 50 ppm, so it'd be considered borderline soft.
Stitch- the most healthy ones have 5-6 sets of leaves on them, but some of the really bad ones only have 2 sets left and not very nice sets at that. Should they be fed less? or not at all? If all of the plants had all of their leaves then I'd be telling you they all have 6-7 sets. Thanx for the tip about adjusting too cos last time I just test and go and ended up with a crazy pH (edit: they are 4-7 inches tall)

 

[MynameStitch]

UG, wth where the hell did my post go!

I posted damnit and It was really long too.

pretty much I said was don't feed the plants the same when they have less leaves. The plants with more leaves need more food than the ones with less leaves, and let me know what pH you get after the earthjuice has set out for 24 hours

I will retype what I had said in a bit, got the munchies and going to get a snack

 

[Kr@kEn]

They look too young for ferts to me. They need bigger containers if you haven't transplanted yet. Wait two weeks and then consider feeding a single dose of ferts.

 

[MynameStitch]

You obviously don't read the whole thread; he already transplanted them, or was going to after my previous post......... I Already told him the information you posted..... seemed like you did not read the whole thread before you posted dude.

 

[Ziggaro]

Thanx stitch I was just about to say that
So heres an update so you don't have to read the thread. The plants were too young for my MG perlite mix so I transplanted them a week ago into 50% promix bx, 50% pebble grade perlite with no added nutrients.
Today the smallest ones (2.5-4 sets of leaves, no cotyldons) were fed EJ 1/4 tsp grow, 1/4 tsp catalyst, 1/8 tsp meta-k, and 1/4 tsp liquid lime (fed extra mild just in case) at 6.4 pH, and the runoff read 6.7 pH at 180 ppms.
Tomorrow, the larger ones (5-7 sets of leaves) will be fed with double what i gave the smallest ones.

BTW stitch. The EJ is still at pH 4.5. Its because I have it in a watering can, instead of a bottle, so I can't shake it I have to stir it. Also, My airstones gave out so its not getting nearly as much oxygen so its gonna take longer. Its ok, though, because the larger plants were transplanted a day after the smaller ones so they don't need watering yet. IME with EJ the less you shake the more you wait, and an airstone is a must.

 

[MynameStitch]

Alright sounds good, just make sure your your pH run off is in the range of 5.5 to 6.3..... don't let it get higher......

Ya, an air stone is a must to get the air going and mix it all

Get the juices flowing! lol

 

[Ziggaro]

Update!

Update!

Hey guys, I'm back with some pictures of their progression from the little bump in the road

I fed all my plants this : 1/2 tsp Earth Juice grow
1/2 tsp Earth Juice Catalyst
1/4 tsp Earth juice Meta-K
1/2 tsp Aggrene Liquid Lime (about 150ppms when added to 50 ppm water)
Most of the plants recieved that mixture in a gallon of water, but 3 of the worst looking got this at half strength.
3 days ago these ones were fed half and now that I've done it I am starting to think I should have waited a little longer before feeding any. They haven't grown too much and they don't have many leaves left.. :/







2 days ago these ones were fed the full mixture and they are looking pretty good for the most part except the droopy one. That ones has been droopy since the start almost and I had previously noticed a gnat or 2 around the soil which I promptly killed. I haven't seen any in a while, though. BTW. When should I feed them again? They only take water about once a week in these bigger containers.

 

[MynameStitch]

What I would do, since they have not rooted the container, do not water until there is run off, only water a little bit..... you can't feed them every watering..... so your going to have to give them a small drink in between, just until they get big enough to where you can safely water them in between feedings.... did I just confuse you with that one? lol

Ya, but they have enough leaves to recover on, as long as they have at least 2 leaves that is mostly green they will live

When they fully recover you won't even know they ever had this problem

Just make sure ya check and keep pH stable and you will be allllllll set!