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Two seed runs in one flowering

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Hello.,
I am about to start a process of implementimg auto genes from a landrace siberian ruderalis into some long flowering sativas. I am contemplating ways to cut down the time. The plan is to backcross f4 pollen to the sativa mother and doing this several rounds. Cubing the sativa mother, trying to add as little as possible other than the auto flowering trait. A very long process. I wondered if a very long flowering sativa{one of my varieties that I haven't tried yet was said to be 25 weeks flowering) could take two seed runs while flowering. I don't know what is minimum or average time for seeds to ripen, I have read about four weeks. Add then minimum time to dry, then sowing the new seeds directly at 12/12 and using the first pollen to occur from the next generation to pollinate once again on a different branch while the mother is still flowering. Could it be done? I know at least autos can extend their lifespan if pollinated late, as a means to ensure passing on genes and reproduce. I know the first males to flower are not ideal, as they are more likely to be turning the breeding process in a hemp direction.
So I will of course plan on a safer route of keeping several clones of the sativa mother and flowering them successively. But if each flowering period and seed run is more than 20 weeks, the time adds up. I haven't pollinated extremely long flowering sativas before, I don't know if the long flowering is just the time it takes to reach ideal ripeness of trichomes or if it also takes much longer for the seeds to mature.
I am well aware that good breeding practice takes several years and a hell of a lot more plants than I could ever manage. And that rushing it will not give good results. It would just be fun to hear if two seed runs in one flowering is at least possible in theory. Sorry for the long post.
 

I wood

Well-known member
Veteran
If seeds are what you are after there is no reason to wait for the rest of the plant to ripen.
You could even pollinate a single branch, let the seeds ripen, cut/harvest that branch and pollinate a different branch.
I often pollinate with two different males on the same plant. Work carefully in a room with no breeze and don’t forget to spray plant down before reentry to flowering room.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks for quick reply, I wood.
Yes, seeds are what I am after, but a bit more specifically, would there be time to let those seeds produce pollen that I could use for a second pollination within the same flowering?
 

I wood

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks for quick reply, I wood.
Yes, seeds are what I am after, but a bit more specifically, would there be time to let those seeds produce pollen that I could use for a second pollination within the same flowering?

This question does not make sense to me. Seeds don’t produce pollen.
Female flowers get pollinated and produce seeds.
Male flowers produce pollen that can be used as it drops or can be collected, stored, and used at a later date.
Timing the males and females to both be ready at the same time is way harder than collecting pollen and using it whenever females are ready.
With long flowering sativas there would be plenty of time to do two seed batches, one after the other. Except for convenience I see no reason to do that instead two at the same time.
For example, i have a durban right now with about five main branches.
One has durban x nevilles haze seeds about four weeks into seed production. Another branch was pollinated with a laos sativa just a week ago. There are still three branches i could make seed with or leave unseeded.
seeds in general take about 4-5 weeks give or take a bit. I like give them extra time to be safe or just wait until they are visibly done.
hope that helps.
 
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teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks for info, and apologies for being unclear. What I meant to say was not seeds producing pollen, but male plants from those seeds.
So I am not talking about using harvested pollen twice with just a few weeks in between.*
Is there time to harvest seeds from a long flowering sativa, wait until these seeds have turned into males and produced pollen and then pollinate again the same plant that produced those seeds.
I'm uncertain how long it would take from harvesting*seeds to aquiring new pollen, if that could be achieved within the flowering period.
Hope I made myself clearer. I mean not two pollinations with just a few weeks inbetween, but a little lifespan inbetween(germination, minimum veg, minimum bloom until available new pollen
 

TychoMonolyth

Boreal Curing
You can shorten your project time, but you can't lengthen the flowering time.
So...

Take a clones early and keep them going.

Pollinate the mother and get seeds.
Grow seeds, find a male and collect the pollen.

Put the saved clones into flower.
Pollinate the saved clones with the new pollen.

That's the best you can do.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Ok. Great, thanks for the feedback. I will stick to clones and harvesting pollen then.
 

gorilla ganja

Well-known member
You may want to consider using a different auto for this project. I don't know your reason for using the Siberian Auto but it will probably reduce the THC you are going for. Better to use a newer worked auto that has a higher THC content than the wild Siberian auto, to introduce the auto genes.
Also to help reduce time and space maybe use the pollen from the long flowering Sativa and pollenate the auto with a short life cycle.
Best of luck with the project, let us know how it works out for you.

Peace GG
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks tycho monolith, that is the way I am planning on doing it. Keeping clones in veg and more or less timing their flowering for when new pollen is available.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Gorilla ganja, for one specific project, I only have feminized seeds of a rare Cambodian sativa, and the wild ruderalis is regular. So pollen would have to come from the auto. I also want to backcross to the same sativa, so the mother would have to be the photo sativa. If I just wanted to develop an auto version of some hybrid, I guess the initial crossing could be just as well pollen from photo to a female auto, then just keep working my way down to f4 and stable auto genes. But I want to keep the sativa as purely Cambodian as possible, therefore back crossing several times. I guess the wild ruderalis will weaken the genetics thc-wise, but hopefully not drastically. The ruderalis is more or less one strain. A more powerful modern auto is a polyhybrid of unknown numbers and types of strains. I might be seriously wrong, but my idea is that using a wild, minimally worked ruderalis is the smallest compromise necessary to develop an auto as purely Cambodian as possible. But what do I know. By back crossing numerous times to the original Cambodian, selecting in the process, maybe the origin of the auto gene is not that important. But I would know that there are genes from all over the world in the gene pool, and I wouldn't like that. The cambodian auto is a personal project with sentimental and intellectual value more than recreational. A final reason for the ruderalis is that it is extra tall, very hardy and requiring very little water and nutrients. Good traits when trying to make the Cambodian finish outdoors in Scandinavia. Many modern potent autos in my experience are not very mold and cold resistant.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
I will surely update the Cambodian project as it develops further throughout the years.
I will also need tons of guidance on the way.
I would like to add that I am doing parallell projects with outdoors and auto genetics. Here the male or female doesn't matter, nor the geographical origin or phenotype, just the hardiness and potency. I keep working with potent autos and cultivars already worked several generations in northern climate. I have Danish and Canadian early photos mixed with
mephisto, dinafem, fastbuds, dutch passion and short stuff genetics. Next season some newly acquired modern, hyped auto genetics is thrown into the mix. (gelato, wedding cake and Bruce banner) These crosses are only selected for success in potency and survival outdoors, and they would be a mess of a polyhybrid. They are sure more practical to use in the Cambodian auto project, but I wouldn't be sure what to call that cross.. If the wild ruderalis doesn't work out I will definitely use the northern acclimatised sativa autos, but it would be a greater compromise..
 

gorilla ganja

Well-known member
Lots of nice projects teide. Good for you. I am working on several similar projects for northern Canada. We can brainstorm on some different techniques we are going to try.

I just wanted to warn you about using a low THC auto. It seems like you have a solid plan though. If you breed a high THC plant with a high CBD plant you will get the following.
25% high THC
50% a 1:1 ratio
25% high CBD
If you can test the first generation and only breed further the high THC ones. I think you may reach your goal faster. But your right, if you back cross several times you can lower the auto input.

We are on the same wavelength when it comes to breeding with the Russian Auto. I have a similar project that I'm working on, crossing a Russian Auto, but I'm crossing to a high CBD plant. Did you get yours from the real seed company?

Love to see some pics if you did.
What latitude approx. are you?

Peace GG
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Thanks, Gorilla, my projects are not very advanced, but great fun. I am still a newb and quite uncertain about many things, so brainstorming and advice is welcome. You are much more experienced than me. I am not even sure of the backcrossing. I have read what chimera says about the cubing only being correct mathematically and what Sam says about more than two/three bx, and How many claim backcrossing regardless is a crap shot. I Will learn more along the way. Good advice to test for tch after f1 before going further. I am actually planning on buying the tcheck device, that will be useful for future tincture as well as in the outdoor project.
The ruderalis is from khalifa genetics. I haven't tried real seed Company yet, nor the landrace team. Some time up the road. I also want my hands on la buena hierba autos and fire99. So little time..
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
I have now received 20 Mekong haze regular seeds from Delta9 Labs. Pure cambodian landrace. Uncertain germ rate. Seven seeds are in a cup of water already. If I get a male, I will collect pollen and use the Cambodian pollen on the rudi for the backcrossing. Easier to use pollen from the longer flowering sativa father on the quicker rudi females.
Also easier to check for potency in the female offspring.

If I get males from the Mekong haze I will also use cambodian landrace pollen on a DP auto desfran and breed down to f4. I think that will be a great cross.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Back to the question of two pollinations in one flowering.
The Mekong haze is stated to have between 18,5 and 21 weeks flowering. Would it be just remotely possible in theory to do a backcross on the Mekong mother in the late stage of flowering, given its already long flowering period plus some extension of its life span due to the second pollination? I realize it is a poor shot, but how much time is needed?
Let 's say it gets successfully pollinated by a ruderalis in the first or second week of flowering. Then it uses four weeks to develop the seeds. Add one week to be sure. Thats seven weeks out of 20. Then the seeds dry as quickly as possible with silica etc. That takes two weeks. These seeds have quick ruderalis flowering traits and we get new pollen after eight weeks. Thats seventeen weeks after the Mekong haze started flowering, and it has a normal flowering period of 20 weeks. Wouldn't there be time for a last pollination and get a second seed batch in theory? What if the mother was an Indian landrace with a 25 week flowering period?
Just a theoretical question.
 
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TychoMonolyth

Boreal Curing
You'd never get ripe seeds on the backside. You could try to keep it alive but then you're looking at more than a season right?

Veg, take a couple clones and work with them instead.
 

teide

Well-known member
Veteran
Sure thing, I will definitely work with clones. I might try to reveg the mom if cloning should fail, but clones are definitely the quickest and most convenient way.
 
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