Trying to understand soil PH

[theother]

This is something that has always bugged me, why the PH requirements for soil, soilless, coco and hydro, are different. I understand that individual elements are available in different ranges and all that. What I don't quite get is why we shift everything up for soil. My best guess is its a compromise between the availability of elements and the happiness of the microbes in the soil? I assume that as far as immediate availability of nutrient solution goes, hydro PH would be perfect? I guess it is raised so that the micro herd isn't damaged by the low PH?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, its just something that has always kind of bugged me.

Also what would ideal PH in soil be, something like 6.5-6.9 depending on how far into flower? I assume you would walk it up in mid flower? Do you guys try and swing it around to help stuff be available?

 

[canna woop!]

Soil pH

Soil pH

Soil pH is governed by the materials which have pH buffering capacity, namely compost/humus and clay/mineral fines. "Base cation saturation ratio " BCSR is the formula for calculation of pH and nutrient availability and states that full nutrient availability will be seen in soils with roughly %60 calcium, %15 magnesium, %10sulphur and %6 potassium. You're talking about adding a lot of calcium for full mineral availability (bringing pH up to 6-7 with agricultural lime). Most all mineral fines and clays are very rich in calcium as well and it's no coincidence. BCSR and minerology are core tenet of soil food web plant nutrition. It was formulated in the 1920's and pH science has confirmed these findings.

 

[theother]

Soil pH is governed by the materials which have pH buffering capacity, namely compost/humus and clay/mineral fines. "Base cation saturation ratio " BCSR is the formula for calculation of pH and nutrient availability and states that full nutrient availability will be seen in soils with roughly %60 calcium, %15 magnesium, %10sulphur and %6 potassium. You're talking about adding a lot of calcium for full mineral availability (bringing pH up to 6-7 with agricultural lime). Most all mineral fines and clays are very rich in calcium as well and it's no coincidence. BCSR and minerology are core tenet of soil food web plant nutrition. It was formulated in the 1920's and pH science has confirmed these findings.

Interesting, so the soil itself wants to be neutral? Does the lime contain calcium, or does it help make it available? What is the role between calcium and other elements? I assume that not all the calcium is available for uptake and it is actually doing something within the soil itself? I realize now my understanding of soil is not what I thought it was. Appreciate the info very much.

As microbiology mineralizes micro and macro nutrients does it tend to lower the PH of soil, and this is why it needs to be buffered up?

What is it about PH that allows a nutrient to osmote into the root? Does it have something to do with the nutrient itself? Or does the PH help whatever the element is chelated to, to pass through? Are micro's more PH dependent than macros?

I was actually interested in why soil nutrient solution should be PH'd differently than hydro etc, I realize now I didn't word the question well. I am actually super interested in soil science though, even though I have never done anything outside, its really interesting and we should all understand it better. I know a lot about opening a bag of ocean Forrest or happy frog, but would be lost if it wasn't available.

 

[canna woop!]

Interesting, so the soil itself wants to be neutral? Does the lime contain calcium, or does it help make it available? What is the role between calcium and other elements? I assume that not all the calcium is available for uptake and it is actually doing something within the soil itself? I realize now my understanding of soil is not what I thought it was. Appreciate the info very much.

As microbiology mineralizes micro and macro nutrients does it tend to lower the PH of soil, and this is why it needs to be buffered up?

What is it about PH that allows a nutrient to osmote into the root? Does it have something to do with the nutrient itself? Or does the PH help whatever the element is chelated to, to pass through? Are micro's more PH dependent than macros?

I was actually interested in why soil nutrient solution should be PH'd differently than hydro etc, I realize now I didn't word the question well. I am actually super interested in soil science though, even though I have never done anything outside, its really interesting and we should all understand it better. I know a lot about opening a bag of ocean Forrest or happy frog, but would be lost if it wasn't available.

There's something exciting about cracking open a bag of spill and just planting I have to admit. The thing is we don't know exactly how much of each ingredient (and by implication each mineral percentage) would be in the soil although the vague list of ingredients is on the bag

You should really look up BCSR and try to find the anwers for yourself yet it looks like your asking the pertinent questions and I can try to answer. Calcium does indeed have a very unique role in soil mineralization and plant nutrition. Not all calcium is created equal though so do your research and find out what form of calcium you're looking at be it carbonate (lime) elemental (mineral) or chemically derived suspension (which is very volatile and I don't rely on or use at all.)

As one of four positively charged cations in BCSR it is probably the most critical and worth looking at the way it functions and making sure you calculate the amount u add to the soil correctly. Depending on your expertise with plants you would be able to tell if soils are calcium deficient by just looking at the plants and the soil history ie what amendment a and environmental processes were affecting the soil and of course, how much rain water is there. Hydrogen is an anion (negatively charged ion) so it wears calcium down over time which can lead to solubiZation of micro elements and also increase the acidity of soil over long periods of time.

Of course this information can be applieto soilless mixes it just depends how much nutrients you are trying to get out of your soil which in any on stances such as mine it would be all of it. I add dried organic amendments to my soils and compost although I never use a bottles nutrition so take from it what you will

Peace woop

 

[theother]

There's something exciting about cracking open a bag of spill and just planting I have to admit. The thing is we don't know exactly how much of each ingredient (and by implication each mineral percentage) would be in the soil although the vague list of ingredients is on the bag

You should really look up BCSR and try to find the anwers for yourself yet it looks like your asking the pertinent questions and I can try to answer. Calcium does indeed have a very unique role in soil mineralization and plant nutrition. Not all calcium is created equal though so do your research and find out what form of calcium you're looking at be it carbonate (lime) elemental (mineral) or chemically derived suspension (which is very volatile and I don't rely on or use at all.)

As one of four positively charged cations in BCSR it is probably the most critical and worth looking at the way it functions and making sure you calculate the amount u add to the soil correctly. Depending on your expertise with plants you would be able to tell if soils are calcium deficient by just looking at the plants and the soil history ie what amendment a and environmental processes were affecting the soil and of course, how much rain water is there. Hydrogen is an anion (negatively charged ion) so it wears calcium down over time which can lead to solubiZation of micro elements and also increase the acidity of soil over long periods of time.

Of course this information can be applieto soilless mixes it just depends how much nutrients you are trying to get out of your soil which in any on stances such as mine it would be all of it. I add dried organic amendments to my soils and compost although I never use a bottles nutrition so take from it what you will

Peace woop

This is interesting, I am reading up on BCSR right now, fascinating stuff. I would definitely be into soil building more if I was doing giant outside stuff. No one wants to fill a bunch of 800Gallon smarties with FFOF.

One quick question would a complete soil like ocean forest be the best choice if using dry organic products in leech teas or aerated teas? Is a peat based non "soil" product like sunshine #4 a better choice for feeding bottled synthetic? What effect do salt based nutes have on microbiology?

Sorry to just keep asking questions, but I am learning a lot here.

 

[canna woop!]

Hey theOther,

A soil like FFOF could be good, especially if you are a beginner and do not wish to gain the experience of mixing your own soil. The problem with this really is (as mentioned above) that the customer (we) don't really know EXACTLY HOW MUCH of each ingredient listed on the bag is in there. There is a list of ingredients without any detail as to the quantities so for those of us who are discerning gardener/farmers who wish to know how much of any fertilizer or mineral we are adding, and measure the effects - it's a total crapshoot. If you contact the company they will probably say it's "proprietary" and the same company sells bottled fertilizer so I have to imagine the soil is deficient in something. Other wise how would they make fertilizer sales?

I mix my soil with everything the plants need and then I cultivate the microbes and add things like clovers to fix nitrogen to the soil so my plants health its taken care of and I don't need to use any fertilizers really. Some microbes like Mycorrhizal fungi only work to inject phosphorous and nitrogen into the roots if there is a deficiency and I am growing these fungi so adding any fertilizer would be redundant for me.

However, if I HAD TO use a bottled/synthetic fertilizer, which I can't imagine why, I would probably choose a soil based product any way. There is a good amount of pH buffering that humus in compost of these soils provides, as well as some desalination properties. In other words a compost-based soil would be more forgiving toward pH or fertilizer drifts. Then, there's the interaction between compost and minerals/limestone/rock/clay that is the BCSR and soil aggregate forming. Which you may or may not want depending on your pre-existing beliefs about plant science (which are abundant among farmer/gardeners)

$.02
woop

 

[canna woop!]

Hey other By the way, I have been doing a bit of reading about this subject. I realized that some of the chemistry data I shared here is not accurate. So hydrogen is actually a positive hydrogen, not negative. I think that's all bit invite any corrections

Also sodium is a positively charged base cation (are h2o,na,k,Ca) not sulphur. Sulphur is negative
Woop

 

[theother]

Hey other By the way, I have been doing a bit of reading about this subject. I realized that some of the chemistry data I shared here is not accurate. So hydrogen is actually a positive hydrogen, not negative. I think that's all bit invite any corrections
Woop

Thanks for the update man, its an interesting subject. Something I am always trying to learn about. Soil isn't something I use regularly anymore but I do find it quite interesting that even when fed with salts you swing the PH up. I still think this must have something to do with accommodating the microbial life and not quickly depleting the lime that is buffered into the soil. We know for a fact that the elements are more readily available at a lower PH so the compromise must have something to do with the overall health of the soil itself.

 

[canna woop!]

I am impressed that you know how an acidic soil may have something to do with fertility
I'm still trying to figure out how so TBH

Glad you asked those questions so I could write that out. You can be sure I would have stuttered a bit on some of the chemical jargon.

I get the idea, there are lots of nutrients produced in soil (more than plants can use) and it's held In aggregated clumps of soil

 

[theother]

I am impressed that you know how an acidic soil may have something to do with fertility
I'm still trying to figure out how so TBH

Glad you asked those questions so I could write that out. You can be sure I would have stuttered a bit on some of the chemical jargon.

I get the idea, there are lots of nutrients produced in soil (more than plants can use) and it's held In aggregated clumps of soil

I think you are thinking of how soil miniralizes nutrients and makes them available to the plant. I am kind of wondering how the PH of a synthetic salt based nutrient solution effects the soil itself. I have a lot of friends that run soil with synthitics and I try and help as much as I can, but sometimes the relationship with PH throws me for a loop. I have experience with soil and organic and hydro and salts but not really soil with synthetics.

I am also really into how organic soil feeds itself don't get me wrong. In fact I feel like soil feeds a plant organic mater so efficiently and effectively that its actually the easiest way possible to garden. It is incredible how the relationship between the rhizome and the soil work together to feed the plant. IMHO stuff just doesn't really go wrong organically. I have had problems with plants of course, but honestly compared to cultivating with salts there is a lot less that can go wrong.

 

[canna woop!]

has this been your experience? I got the drift you may be running hydro?

that question about synthetic salts in soil is interesting subject. I believe that synthetic fertilization slows the process of nutrient adsorption or maybe it speeds it up. The plants don't need the nutrients when you add synthetic fertilizer, because they are well-fed.
So the microbes get lazy and stop producing the free ions that plants eat.

It happens I'm sure. Maybe?

 

[theother]

I believe the salts do in some way incapacitates or at least to some extent slow down the micro life in the soil. I have run soil a lot but has always been organic fed dry organic supplements. I do hydro as well. I am just trying to reconcile my understanding of individually chelated hydroponic nutes used in soil as that is what many of my friends do and I would love to be able to help them as much as possible.

I guess my question is really all about what happens to the chelated nutrients that the plant does not use. So when the plant is fed solution, the roots are able to osmote as much of the chelated nutrients as they want at that point just as in hydro? What ever the plant doesn't use is absorbed through cation exchange by the soil? Does the chelate help the plant make use of this element at this point or is it carried by microbes to the plant?

And most importantly why the change in ideal ph of the nutrient solution? Is this to somehow protect the micro life or is it actually a different scale of availability based on PH?

Its funny man because this is a question I have been asking at hydro stores and demo days for years and never gotten what I consider a satisfactory answer.

The only time I used soil with salts I used the cutting edge three part. I was actually pretty pleased considering. I feel like this nutrient line had less immediately available elements. It wasn't like running a dutch line where you tweak it and shit happens. It was more forgiving. I did find that it was salty though.

Would love to get a good grasp on soil with synthetics or synthetic organics (because I feel like this is not much different than straight synthetics.

 

[canna woop!]

I really don't know how the pH of the nutrient solution has to do with organic nutrient uptake.

In other words how do biological and synthetic interact?

It's tough topic. I'm sure hydro growers would have an answer

Although I don't focus on pH much as a detrimental factor though I'm interested

I think it matters which microbes are involved.

That's why I use a stinking comfrey tea in vegetation or Ice cold fir needle tea before harvest

I wish that I could se eye to eye with hydro and pesticide growers.

It would probably help with my terrible propagation success rate

 

[Mikell]

That's why I use a stinking comfrey tea in vegetation or Ice cold fir needle tea before harvest

You can't just mention something interesting like that and wander off, ass

Cold acidic tea to shock microbes = senescence aid?

 

[Floridian]

Soil has always been a lot more forgiving than the other methods of growing when it comes to PH.I like FFOF 2 to 1 with roots organic along with 3 tbls dolomite lime,now your soil is cool PH wise.I always liked about 6.4 and always PHd my ferts to there or so.PH your nutrient to low 6s to 6.4,lime your soil and you are a PH god for good.If this makes no sense at all in this thread its because my stroke just kicked in

 

[theother]

hahaha no way bro, that made sense. So you lime your complete soil? Is that 3 tbs per gallon of soil? What PH do those soils come at? I guess i am trying to understand what the ph of the soil itself effects as opposed to the nutrient PH. Does the soil PH building lime help the plant feed when it is a bit drier and the nutrient solution PH is no longer the same? Just trying to understand if starting soil PH is something super critical when feeding salts.