Total EC or ppm question

[Guest]

When I add supplements should I lower the nutes so the total EC doesn't go above a certain level or can I go with the full amount of nutes and then add supplements? For example, have everything added and have EC at 1.2, or 1.2 ec of nutes and then adding in supplement and not care where the EC ends up from there.

I am not clear if our plants should not see a level of salts above a threshold or if 2.2 (or whatever) is OK if it is spread across several types of feed/supplement?

 

[Guest]

good question
ne one?

 

[Guest]

Such is always the issue with additives.... the real kicker is, you honestly dont need them.

If you bring your EC up to 1.5-2.0, your plant will have plenty to feed on. Now dumping more N-P-K (since additives are usually one/two of these) you are essentially just adding more nutes to the rez.

Additives are great if you're running a very low EC and need to make up for what your nutrients are lacking. However, as you can probably guess, it's just as easy to add more nutes to your rez instead of the expensive additives.

Check out the Lucas formula - it's designed to eliminate the need for any additives (excluding flushing ones). Additives = More money for the vendors...and not much else.

 

[Guest]

ok i get that but thats not really answering the question really lol
im sayin doe i use LK and will b using some other beneficial additives

 

[Guest]

Damn, I didn't set to be notified and didn't see the replies till now. Thanks aizen!

That makes sense Klutter, thanks to you! This is my first grow and I am having a blast trying things, coming up with questions, finding answers, it's all good. I like trying alot of things with a curiousity to see results or lack of. It's the most fun way to jump into something, I think. I level out and find what is most comfortable to maintain as time goes on.

Right now, I have used Cal Mag+, fulvic/humic acid, Pro-Tekt, and molasses as supplements and have been following the lucas formula at approx 0.8 EC (400 ppm or so) with GH flora and ro water. My soil is Ocean Forest with 15% or so perlite, worm castings, pellet dolomite lime and Rhiozyme(sp?) added but the beneficial bacteria stuff is expensive for a small amount! FWIW

 

[clowntown]

There's a lot more to additives than just N, P and K, Klutter. I've seen you preaching on about how great the Lucas formula is (and I'm sure it is) and how additives are completely unnecessary and so on and so forth.

Do you really have anything to back this besides "I've grown without additives and get fine results"?

I see noticeable differences when I use Botanicare's Silica Blast, for one. I'm sure there are other differences I cannot see with my eyes as well. Cal/Mag+ (or another Cal/Mag product) is another that my plants would simply not be able to survive with. I've seen very notable differences when using Rhizotonic. I'm not so sure about Liquid Karma, never did a comparison to see so I don't know yet, but many reputable folks say it's good so I'm using it for now until I find out otherwise by doing a comparison myself.

By the way, great question jjschagundi I've been wondering about this myself for a while, but never asked...

 

[Guest]

well i just add the additives first usually only a small amount n then add the main nutes for the rest my girls dont need that much to keep them happy

i only burned them once when i i went above 800+ PPM
and had a cal/mag problem when i used straight R/O water
this is with wonder diesel FYI my second grow

when i run my clones from the mother plant thats in the process i will monitor the nutrient intake a lil bit better and fine tune the nutes by measuring the in/out of what i feed

 

[Guest]

There's a lot more to additives than just N, P and K, Klutter. I've seen you preaching on about how great the Lucas formula is (and I'm sure it is) and how additives are completely unnecessary and so on and so forth.

Do you really have anything to back this besides "I've grown without additives and get fine results"?

I see noticeable differences when I use Botanicare's Silica Blast, for one. I'm sure there are other differences I cannot see with my eyes as well. Cal/Mag+ (or another Cal/Mag product) is another that my plants would simply not be able to survive with. I've seen very notable differences when using Rhizotonic. I'm not so sure about Liquid Karma, never did a comparison to see so I don't know yet, but many reputable folks say it's good so I'm using it for now until I find out otherwise by doing a comparison myself.

By the way, great question jjschagundi I've been wondering about this myself for a while, but never asked...

Right on and good points... the one additive that I used for quite a while was CalMag, but this was due to using a nutrient solution that lacked in these areas (PureBlendPro). Once I swapped over to a more robust mix that additive was no longer needed.

To answer the ACTUAL QUESTION (hahah, sorry man if it went hijacked) - YES...If you are striving to maintain an EC of 1.5 do NOT add nutes to 1.5 and THEN the additives... What I recommend is use the additive FIRST. Sure, this might not be what others go with but it made more sense to me when using them... so if I want 10ml of KoolBloom in there I add it first, then use the nutrients to bring up the EC to the desired 1.5...

I apologize if I come off preaching, I guess if someone sat down and read my posts for the past months they'd also think I was ranting...but I guess it's just something I firmly stand by... Not to mention, how many times do we honestly answer the same questions over and over? We all rant..hahah.... But I have lost so many plants, dollars and lowered harvests due to trying to use LK, Dark Energy, KoolBloom, SuperThrive, and the many many other additives. I mean jesus just look at AN's grow guide - how much shit does a brutha need to put into a rez to get rock'n buds?

I took the stance at that time in my life that I believe most new/semi-new growers take - that if I put an additive like KoolBloom in there it will give me bigger buds. So if I put ALL the additives in there that would give me the super-mutha-fuckin buds! Sadly this is far from the case and it's what began my search for just how useful ARE these anyways.

As far as specific examples, rather than siting multiple boards/posts I'll just as easily use yours combined with my experience - afterall I've learned, it doesnt matter as much what others say, it matters most what YOU experience.

"I see noticeable differences when I use Botanicare's Silica Blast"

Ok, I'll bite on that one.... the first question that pops into my mind is: Did you grow out 2 clones, same enviro, same EC only feeding 1 of them the additive? (control/test subjects)

This is how I 'test' these. First one was with 2 Arjan's NLxHaze clones and using FloraNovaBloom and Dark Energy (veg) + KoolBloom (flower). The other clone was fed straight Floranova Bloom throughout the grow. Both were given Clearex at the end. What I found, which is why I share, is that one with the additives experienced pH swings, odd EC fluctuation and did not provide a larger finished product. The one without the additives did none of the above, remained constant and delivered a better finished product. Once I calculated the actual grow cost for both of these it was obvious, additives were like taking a daily vitamin - people 'claim' that they feel better taking vitamins, but science has yet to prove they are affective at doing anything other than causing the body extra work to export them (since the average diet already contains these vitamins)....hmm, sounds like my point with these.

The obvious reasons for the above were that the one without additives did not have the pH fluctuations, leading me to believe that this is probably what actually caused the decrease in yield... however, rather than just 'assuming' I continued with other additives and other grows - LK, Silica, Sweet, etc. I had already bought them so why not use em up....

I just have not found substantial evidence that ANY of these actually deliver. I expect to see/smell/taste enhanced pheno's when dumping extra cash into my rez - otherwise the funds are better spent on lighting.

So no, I'm not typing hype...just trying to promote what I have personally found to work. What kind of testing experience have you had? If you'd like a more detailed discussion on additives I'm all for it and have many spreadsheets with detailed data to assist in discovery - it would be fantastic to see if there is actual evidence that they do work for others...otherwise I'll stick with what has worked for me, and wasting cash was not one of em

 

[Guest]

i use gh flora 3-part, without the bloom. after about 4 weeks, my mix goes impotent and i start feeding every watering, and flushing then refeeding if something goes wrong.

i have an ec meter, too. the correction is 0.5, and when i measure my mix (5ml micro, 10ml bloom, veg feeding), i get about 450ppm if using ro, 600ppm if using tap. 8ml/16ml was plenty to take my last girls to harvest under a 150w. i use the same under 300w. these are "lucas" formula numbers.

 

[Guest]

Damn, great thread! Where is my gold star?

Klutter, you're speaking to the choir about your new grower observation. For instance, last night I thought I should go with water/CalMag but instead went with the entree big mutha fukin bud supreme. The big juicing was two feedings ago and I followed with a lighter feed (.8 ec) then last night planned to go .8 with nutes alone and went too heavy so it was at 1.2. I then added my stuff, including fulvic acid which I don't even know if it has a place in htere right now or not. I'm at day 33 here and will be curious to see how they look at lights on today but thought I detected some slight curl up on the serrated edges and the leaves may have looked a little more paper like than I recalled prior to latest feeding. I look forward to being able to hit them again when they are thirsty with just water and see where the runoff is at.

 

[Guest]

Do I want to go with a bloom "booster"? Something to stress the plant to encourage resin production? Or are you saying that the lucas formula should only be used and to bump up the amount when the time comes to want a booster? What time should that be in a 50-60 day plant or a 70 day plant? I have one that looks like it is definately late to the party and is a Mandala mix plant so it could be sativa leaning.

 

[clowntown]

Great post, Klutter.

No, I haven't done a side-by-side clone comparison, which I agree is really the only conclusive way to show exactly what a product does or doesn't do. However I've grown with and without on the same strain and have noticed differences.

I can't really show you any pictures or anything like that because I only recently got my camera, and am going from seed this run. But I promise to do a side-by-side comparison thread on additives in the future as soon as I'm setup to do so.

 

[Guest]

But I promise to do a side-by-side comparison thread on additives in the future as soon as I'm setup to do so.

Great! I look forward to it! I just read your bulb centering thread and that is an excellent idea. I have looked at my bulb in the past and wondered that. I have to reread it to see exactly how you did it to see if I can do the same on my hood, a Sun Systems.

I have checked my plants now and they look just fine...

 

[Guest]

Well... I'm happy to report that I JUST GOT A WORKING DIGI-CAM!!! Woohoo! Now I can finally take some damn shots of my ladies!

And of course this means... I can test our topic!

I'm going to be running 2 clones from the same Chronic's Revenge plant. This strain is awesome in dealing with heavy nutes/high EC and has always given me great yields... so this is gonna be fun and let's really try and nail down what works and what doesnt.

(control subject)I will run 1 of them with nothing but FloranovaBloom (EC of approx 2, allowing fluctuation down to 1.3 at the most before bumping back up). Hell, I wont even use clearex at the end - nothing but R/O water for the flush...

(Test subject)The other will be with FloranovaBloom as well, but I'll be adding in the remainder of my additives (Dark Energy, KoolBloom, SuperThrive, Sweet, Clearex) first and then bringing the EC up to match Clone 1.

Same enviro - 1500ppm CO2, Temps 80-90, DWC, 400w....

Rather than do this perpetual I'm going to wait for my Arjan's to wrap up and get the room spotless clean... then I'll throw up the diary thread!


EDIT: Before I forget, I know this is in the soil section, but I'm gonna run these via hydro - as it is going to allow a much more precise measurement of EC/pH and let me keep it dialed in 24/7. I think this is crucial for an accurate test.

 

[Guest]

Sweet!

 

[clowntown]

Awesome; you beat me to it! I'll be tagging along in that thread for sure. It's your project, but might I suggest you use only one additive as a comparison?

A combination of additives may do something quite different than the combined results of the two used separately, if you know what I mean. In other words, 2 + 2 might equal 5. Or 3. Or 4, but I don't know that yet. It would also allow you to confirm or deny whether that product performs as advertised, as well.

And because it's somewhat difficult to make everything else even, including root mass / veg time (depending on when they take, the particular clone's exact health status, etc) for TWO clones, and I feel it might be even better to use a minimum of several clones for each half of the test subject group, like a "this half of the room is FN, this half is FN + additives". Of course this is pretty resource-consuming, but would be the real conclusive way.

 

[kokua]

Sweet!

lol

The list of addatives looks good for the most part. The DE and KB are two totally different types of flower addatives and will work together and will both compliment the FNB. The sweet might help with the flavor...it might not.
If I could make one suggestion...I would drop the superthrive from the mix. It has vitamins which are good, but it also has rooting hormones. You don't want to confuse the plant mid-flower by giving it rooting hormones...

 

[Guest]

Awesome; you beat me to it! I'll be tagging along in that thread for sure. It's your project, but might I suggest you use only one additive as a comparison?

A combination of additives may do something quite different than the combined results of the two used separately, if you know what I mean. In other words, 2 + 2 might equal 5. Or 3. Or 4, but I don't know that yet. It would also allow you to confirm or deny whether that product performs as advertised, as well.

And because it's somewhat difficult to make everything else even, including root mass / veg time (depending on when they take, the particular clone's exact health status, etc) for TWO clones, and I feel it might be even better to use a minimum of several clones for each half of the test subject group, like a "this half of the room is FN, this half is FN + additives". Of course this is pretty resource-consuming, but would be the real conclusive way.

Good thinking! So for this I could try another approach... I could either have 1 of them be a control subject (using nutes only) and the other blast it with every additive I have (simulating the typical newb). OR, I could remove the control status and just run 1 additive per plant... perhaps DE on Clone A and KB for Clone B.... neither of these will require hardly any veg time other than when I transplant them from soil to hydro (I keep em in soil to keep em tiny and slow growth while they wait for the fun room).

Either way I looked at my trichs and it appears I've got another 7-14 days... Damn sexy sativa bitches



So I've got time to figure out the approach. I'm also trying to come up with every possible measurement.... I'll be recording EC, pH, water consumption, root status, height and aroma.... along with the pictures to capture any visible pheno's. Think of anything else? If so - let's get it in the journal thread once I start it.

Now I'll quit hi-jacking this thread...hahah.

 

[Suby]

Such is always the issue with additives.... the real kicker is, you honestly dont need them.

If you bring your EC up to 1.5-2.0, your plant will have plenty to feed on. Now dumping more N-P-K (since additives are usually one/two of these) you are essentially just adding more nutes to the rez.

Additives are great if you're running a very low EC and need to make up for what your nutrients are lacking. However, as you can probably guess, it's just as easy to add more nutes to your rez instead of the expensive additives.

Check out the Lucas formula - it's designed to eliminate the need for any additives (excluding flushing ones). Additives = More money for the vendors...and not much else.

You took the words out of my mouth K.
Lucas formula for hydro or soiless is a well balanced and well tested nutrient setup.

S