The Philosophy Thread

[Sardonic]

rule number one: no religious fanatics allowed. Seriously, it will turn this thread into mayhem. Arguing with religious nuts is like arguing with a brick wall, and the brick wall is trying to convince you that it can fly, simple because it *believes* it can fly -- no proof is necessary thereby.

rule number two: everything is relative.

I make this thread with the objective of getting an idea of how other intellectuals see the world, and possibly to make some new friends

with that said, I'll let someone else set the bar for conversation. I would be more than happy to ramble on about existentialism, my theories of interdependence and so on and so forth, but I don't want to risk no one having a clue what the hell i'm talking about and it being a waste of my time.

but maybe i'll start it off by saying...religion is degeneration and enmity towards earth

 

[idontgivenames]

rule number one: no religious fanatics allowed. Seriously, it will turn this thread into mayhem. Arguing with religious nuts is like arguing with a brick wall, and the brick wall is trying to convince you that it can fly, simple because it *believes* it can fly -- no proof is necessary thereby.

rule number two: everything is relative.

Everything but the religious points of view?

Religion is not at all degenerative. Some of the most intelligent people through out history have been religious, and still are religious. In fact, often these strong religious feelings are tied to their intelligence. It takes zeal to pursue something and be great, almost the same zeal that comes with religion. So while you rant on it as being the "Opium for the masses," don't forget you're on a pot forum.

I don't see what's so hard to believe that the universe came into existence. The way I see it, if there was a cause to all cause and effect, then there is a God. I find it very unreasonable that any philosopher would compare the idea of a higher force, not necessarily a judging force, but just a higher force, to the probability of a flying spaghetti monster.

 

[Sardonic]

Everything but the religious points of view?

Religion is not at all degenerative. Some of the most intelligent people through out history have been religious, and still are religious. In fact, often these strong religious feelings are tied to their intelligence. It takes zeal to pursue something and be great, almost the same zeal that comes with religion. So while you rant on it as being the "Opium for the masses," don't forget you're on a pot forum.

have you not heard that god is dead?

ftp://opensource.nchc.org.tw/gutenberg/etext99/spzar10.txt
you should give that a read

I don't see what's so hard to believe that the universe came into existence. The way I see it, if there was a cause to all cause and effect, then there is a God. I find it very unreasonable that any philosopher would compare the idea of a higher force, not necessarily a judging force, but just a higher force, to the probability of a flying spaghetti monster.

I never compared the idea of a higher force to the probability of a flying spaghetti monster

God is a conjecture: but I do not wish your conjecturing to reach beyond
your creating will.

Could ye CREATE a God?--Then, I pray you, be silent about all Gods! But ye
could well create the Superman.

Not perhaps ye yourselves, my brethren! But into fathers and forefathers
of the Superman could ye transform yourselves: and let that be your best
creating!--

God is a conjecture: but I should like your conjecturing restricted to the
conceivable.

Could ye CONCEIVE a God?--But let this mean Will to Truth unto you, that
everything be transformed into the humanly conceivable, the humanly
visible, the humanly sensible! Your own discernment shall ye follow out to
the end!

And what ye have called the world shall but be created by you: your
reason, your likeness, your will, your love, shall it itself become! And
verily, for your bliss, ye discerning ones!

And how would ye endure life without that hope, ye discerning ones?
Neither in the inconceivable could ye have been born, nor in the
irrational.

But that I may reveal my heart entirely unto you, my friends: IF there
were gods, how could I endure it to be no God! THEREFORE there are no
Gods.

 

[ap00]

The way I see it, if there was a cause to all cause and effect, then there is a God.

But that brings in the problem of infinite regression..what caused god??

 

[idontgivenames]

But that brings in the problem of infinite regression..what caused god??

which is why we'll never understand everything and god is greater than us.

 

[idontgivenames]

have you not heard that god is dead?

ftp://opensource.nchc.org.tw/gutenberg/etext99/spzar10.txt
you should give that a read


I never compared the idea of a higher force to the probability of a flying spaghetti monster

higher force = god.

god is not dead. he is the highest of all forces. that's the god the bible teaches you of, not what the pasture who believes in a second take on Judaism teaches you.

i was making reference to dawkins comparison of god, which is basically on the same level of all atheists. so that's why i made assumptions.

 

[Sardonic]

this is why religion is degenerating:

PROGRESSIVE:

But that brings in the problem of infinite regression..what caused god??

great point ap00. I'm sure your discerning mine can now ponder the big questions. if there's no god, why am i here? creation of new values, etc etc, or at least it LEAVES THAT DOOR OPEN

DEGENERATIVE:

which is why we'll never understand everything and god is greater than us.

you play the role of an illiterate slave. all the big questions are answered, now all you've gotta worry about is getting high and buying the latest ipodz!

Whatever cannot obey itself, is commanded. "Thou Shalt" is not a doctrine for me, my friend. but you have fun with it

next subject ^_^


ap00, what do you think?

 

[FarmerJoe]

Haha I'm sorry religion ruined your thread before it started.

 

[Guest]

was looking forward to a philosophy thread

but while we're talking about religion, here's a nice little excerpt from upton sinclair

Bootstrap-Lifting
Bootstrap-lifting? says the reader.

It is a vision I have seen: upon a vast plain, men and women are gathered in dense throngs, crouched in uncomfortable and distressing positions, their fingers hooked in the straps of their boots. They are engaged in lifting themselves; tugging and straining until they grow red in the face, exhausted. The perspiration streams from their foreheads, they show every symptom of distress; the eyes of all are fixed, not upon each other, nor upon their bootstraps, but upon the sky above. There is a look of rapture upon their faces, and now and then, amid grunts and groans, they cry out with excitement and triumph.

I approach one and say to him, "Friend, what is this you are doing?"

He answers, without pausing to glance at me, "I am performing spiritual exercises. See how I rise?"

"But," I say, "you are not rising at all!"

Whereat he becomes instantly angry. "You are one of the scoffers!"

"But friend," I protest, "don't you feel the earth under your feet?"

"You are a materialist!"

"But, friend, I can see --"

"You are without spiritual vision!"

And so I move on among the sweating and groaning hordes. Being of a sympathetic turn of mind, I cannot help being distressed by the prevalence of this singular practice among so large a portion of the human race. How, is it possible that none of them should suspect the futility of their procedure? Or can it really be that I am uncomprehending? That in some way they are actually getting off the ground, or about to get off the ground?

Then I observe a new phenomenon: a man gliding here and there among the bootstrap-lifters, approaching from the rear and slipping his hands into their pockets. The position of the spiritual exercisers greatly facilitates his work; their eyes being cast up to heaven, they do not see him, their thoughts being occupied, they do not heed him; he goes through their pockets at leisure, and transfers the contents to a bag he carries, and then moves on to the next victim. I watch him for a while, and finally approach and ask, "What are you doing, sir?"

He answers, "I am picking pockets."

"Oh," I say, puzzled by his matter-of-course tone. "But -- I beg pardon -- are you a thief?"

"Oh, no," he answers, smilingly, "I am the agent of the Wholesale Pickpockets' Association. This is Prosperity."

"I see," I reply. "And these people let you --"

"It is the law," he says. "It is also the gospel."

I turn, following his glance, and observe another person approaching -- a stately figure, clad in scarlet and purple robes, moving with slow dignity. He gazes about at the sweating and grunting hordes; now and then he stops and lifts his hand in a gesture of benediction, and proclaims in rolling tones, "Blessed are the Bootstrap-lifters, for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven." He moves on, and after a bit stops and announces again, "Man doth not live. by bread alone, but by every word that cometh out of the mouth of the prophets and priests of Bootstrap- lifting.

Watching a while longer, I see this majestic one approach the agent of the Wholesale Pickpocket's, Association. The agent greets him as a friend, and proceeds to transfer to the pockets of his capacious robes a generous share of the loot which he has collected. The majestic one does not cringe, nor does he make any effort to hide what is going on. On the contrary he cries aloud, "It is more blessed to give than to receive!" And again he cries, "The laborer is worthy of his hire!" And a third time he cries, yet more sternly, "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's!" And the Bootstrap-lifters pause long enough to answer: "Lord have mercy upon us, and incline our hearts to keep this law!" Then they renew their straining and tugging.

I step up, and in timid tones begin, "Reverend sir, will you tell me by what right you take this wealth?"

Instantly a frown comes upon his face, and he cries in a voice of thunder, "Blasphemer!" And all the Bootstrap-lifters desist from their lifting, and menace me with furious looks. There is a general call for a policeman of the Wholesale Pickpockets' Association; and so I fall silent, and slink away in the throng, and thereafter keep my thoughts to myself.

Over the vast plain I wander, observing a thousand strange and incredible and terrifying manifestations of the Bootstrap- lifting impulse. There is, I discover, a regular propaganda on foot; a long time ago -- no man can recall how far back -- the Wholesale Pickpockets made the discovery of the ease with which a man's pockets could be rifled while he was preoccupied with spiritual exercises, and they began offering prizes for the best essays in support of the practice. Now their propaganda is everywhere triumphant, -- and year by year we see an increase in the rewards and emoluments of the prophets and priests of the cult. The ground is covered with stately temples of various designs, all of which I am told are consecrated to Bootstrap- lifting, I come to where a group of people are occupied in laying the corner-stone of a new white marble structure; I inquire and am informed it is the First Church of Bootstrap-lifters, Scientist. As I stand watching, a card is handed to me, informing me that a lady will do my Bootstrap-lifting at five dollars per lift.

I go on to another building, which I am told is a library containing volumes in defense of the Bootstrap-lifters, published under the auspices of the Wholesale Pickpockets. I enter, and find endless vistas of shelves, also several thousand current magazines and papers. I consult these -- for my legs have given out in the effort to visit and inspect all phases of the Bootstrap-lifting practice. I discover that hardly a week passes that some one does not start a new cult, or revive an old one; if I had a hundred life-times I could not know all the creeds and ceremonies, the services and rituals, the litanies and liturgies, the hymns, anthems and offertories of Bootstrap-lifting. There are the Holy Roman Bootstrap-lifters, whose priests are fed by Transubstantiation; the established Anglican Bootstrap-lifters, whose priests live by "livings"; the Baptist Bootstrap-lifters, whose preachers practice total immersion in Standard Oil. There are Yogi Bootstrap-lifters with flowing robes of yellow silk; Theosophist Bootstrap-lifters with green and purple auras; Mormon Bootstrap-lifters, Mazdaznan Bootstrap-lifters, Spiritualist and Spirit-Fruit, Millerite and Dowieite, Holy Roller and Holy Jumper, Comd-to-glory Negro, Billy Sunday base-ball and Salvation Army bassdrum Bootstrap-lifters. There are the thousand varieties of "New Thought" Bootstrap-lifters; the mystic and transcendentalist, Swedenborgian and Jacob Boehme Bootstrap- lifters; the Elbert Hubbard high-art Bootstrap-lifters with half a million magazinelets at two bits apiece; the "uplift" and "optimist," the Ralph Waldo Trine and Orison Swett Marden Bootstrap-litters with a hundred thousand volumes at one dollar per volume. There are the Platonist and Hegelian and Kantian professors of collegiate metaphysical Bootstrap-lifting at several thousand dollars per year each. There are the Nietz- schean Bootstrap-lifters, who lift themselves to the Superman, and the art-for-art's-sake, neo-Pagan Bootstrap-lifters, who lift themselves down to the Ape.

Excepting possibly the last-mentioned group, the priests of all these cults, the singers, shouters, prayers and exhorters of Bootstrap-lifting have as their distinguishing characteristic that they do very little lifting at their own bootstraps, and less at any other man's. Now and then you may see one bend and give a delicate tug, of a purely symbolical character: as when the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Bootstrap-lifters comes once a year to wash the feet of the poor; or when the Sunday-school Superintendent of the Baptist Bootstrap-lifters shakes the hand of one of his Colorado mine-slaves. But for the most part the priests and preachers of Bootstrap-lifting walk haughtily erect, many of them being so swollen with prosperity that they could not reach their bootstraps if they wanted to. Their role in life is to exhort other men to more vigorous efforts at self-elevation, that the agents of the Wholesale Pickpockets' Association may ply their immemorial role with less chance of interference.

 

[GMT]

If everything is relative, how would you assign value of action? ie what is good/bad?

 

[idontgivenames]

this is why religion is degenerating:

PROGRESSIVE:

great point ap00. I'm sure your discerning mine can now ponder the big questions. if there's no god, why am i here? creation of new values, etc etc, or at least it LEAVES THAT DOOR OPEN

DEGENERATIVE:


you play the role of an illiterate slave. all the big questions are answered, now all you've gotta worry about is getting high and buying the latest ipodz!

Whatever cannot obey itself, is commanded. "Thou Shalt" is not a doctrine for me, my friend. but you have fun with it

next subject ^_^


ap00, what do you think?

I'm not really that religious. I believe we can bring science very far, but only to a certain point. I just don't think man can ever be greater than God, or the said "higher force." See, you're making some pretty broad assumptions when very little has actually been said. I'm sure we can actually explain how the universe came into physical existence. The big bang is a very probable explanation. I just don't think man will ever be able to achieve omnipotence. For something to come from nothing, is just beyond fathomable.

Cause as we know it comes from effect, effect comes from cause. It's a question of infinite regression. Since our universe and everything we can find out works on cause and effect, I think that it is impossible to understand God because he goes beyond cause and effect. Logically asserting there is a God is attempting to answer the unanswerable. For this reason, I'd rather take the upper hand in Pascal's Wager, and continue to search for reason, even though I'm probably going to hell anyways if there is an afterlife.

Thou shalt do as your supposed to, and thou shalt do as thou shalt. So thou shalt is part of your doctrine, whether you like it or not. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying though.

Now I'll drop it

 

[Haps]

God is not dead.
God is,
We are,
Be.

H

 

[GMT]

Sard, to live with others, we must exhert our own limits, and therefore the shalt will be willed into place by even those who profess not to subscribe to the doctrine of shalt. Will shall will shalt so shalt will be. Not to bow to shalt, even if only the self willed shalt, will lead to a speedy death or prolonged confinement by others, only increasing the binds of the shalt and losing the will of causation. The greatest freedoms are held in obeying the shalts of thine own will, and willing within reason and care of others.

 

[Sardonic]

If everything is relative, how would you assign value of action? ie what is good/bad?

it's for you to decide.

the problem with values being placed upon you -- as the case is with religion is that you end up with a bunch of chameleon sheep.

but jeez, do some reading.

it is boring for me to discuss subjects i've tackled long ago, over and over. I was more so hoping to find other people who have read philosophy, particularly topics covering existentialism, morals and so on --: the rest is a waste of a breath. It's like talking about how the sky is blue -- i know the ****ing sky is blue, i want to get planes in it now. ya dig?

 

[idontgivenames]

it's for you to decide.

the problem with values being placed upon you -- as the case is with religion is that you end up with a bunch of chameleon sheep.

but jeez, do some reading.

it is boring for me to discuss subjects i've tackled long ago, over and over. I was more so hoping to find other people who have read philosophy, particularly topics covering existentialism, morals and so on --: the rest is a waste of a breath. It's like talking about how the sky is blue -- i know the ****ing sky is blue, i want to get planes in it now. ya dig?

ive read book one of republic and dabbled through out the rest of it, started utopia but i lost the book.

as for ethics, i say if everyone would just do unto others as they would have done unto them the world would be a lot better of a place. keep in mind though, do unto others extends farther than the shallow value of the action itself. something even the great jerry fallwell could never understand, lol. im just kidding, that guys a prick.

so on the topic of philosophy, what be your philosophy for not believing in a god if you know you cant prove him anymore than you disprove him? although i think that since existence exists, there must be a god. i say why not take the upper hand in pascals wager? it doesn't necessarily limit you since you're not converting to any religion but just admitting a higher force. and if you're wrong you're wrong. big deal, ehh? at the end of the day if there is no god or after life, it really doesn't matter since you're rotting underground and that's it.

 

[Feyd]

I don't follow or support any organized religion that exists today. I do believe that there must be a creative force behind all that is. However, I do not think that the vast majority of the world's population's view of God is 100% accurate. Those people who consider themselves holy warriors for Jesus (Aka that crazy bitch from that wife swap show on TLC) are simply accepting Jesus because no better explanation has arisen and they refuse to think for themselves. I would guess that complicated science that attempts to explain many mysteries of the universe that are "explained" in the Bible confuses and alienates many ignorant people who happen to be religious zealots.

I believe in spirituality and am intrigued by the thought of an omnipotent, benevolent, creative force responsible for the Universe as we know it... but I just think the Bible is bullshit.

 

[inverse]

philosophy. Our human brains limit our perception of the infinite universe. While philosophy is certainly an extraordinary tool for better understanding our perception of the universe, it does very little to open our eyes to the true nature of the infinite universe, and this is why i feel its a waste of time if understanding life outside of the human brain is one's goal; We must all come to terms with the fact that no human brain will ever understand the nature of the universe, just as an ant's wont, and thus any so-called insights into the matter are worthless.
However, i'm on chapter 3 of Nietzsche's "Human, all too Human" and it certainly gives me great insight into human interactions and thought processes. I wish it was published online (maybe you know that it is Sardonic???) so that you all could gasp at it's brilliance.

 

[Sardonic]

i don't believe that.

the reason we don't know shit now is 'cuz we stopped evolving. look at history. everything hitherto has surpassed itself (we crawled from the ocean and so on). man still hasn't. mainly because of religion, i believe.

but look at idiot savants. you could throw a 2234282 quarters on the ground and one of them would know it the second they hit. check them out on wiki, or google. some people believe they're evolved people and shit

anyway, use your brain. i've got mine to do some interesting stuff. i've been experimenting with lucid dreaming. it's ****ing insane dude. seriously, look that shit up.

interdependentzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

more stuff too. but planet earth is on, pz

 

[inverse]

yeah i've had one lucid dream for like 10 seconds, but it was extremely awesome and i got to fly

anyways, we're definitely still evolving as long as women and men have sex and birth children. we can't see the progress in our history, because well...our history is only 3,000 plus years old, which is less than a blink of the eye on the evolutionary scale. however, i do think this is the final state mankind will reach because i'm certain we will destroy ourselves...but that is another topic.

i've gotten to a point though where nietzsche or other philosophers are interesting reads at night, but that i realize i will never understand the truth of what life and the universe are...but am completely content with living in it, and that brings peace

i pose the question: why is it the purpose of organisms to live when death is inevitable...and to spread their seed so other organisms may live? life is amazing and is here to enjoy! don't waste another day in church ;(

 

[Sardonic]

i've gotten to a point though where nietzsche or other philosophers are interesting reads at night, but that i realize i will never understand the truth of what life and the universe are...but am completely content with living in it, and that brings peace

a lot of your questions are answered in thus spake zarathustra
ftp://opensource.nchc.org.tw/gutenberg/etext99/spzar10.txt

READ IT BOY.

install https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/68 and look up the words you dunno, and read that shit.