The Organic Think Tank

[Centrum]

Since this is an Organic HYDRO forum, let's keep it to strictly indoor grows. If someone has an organic hydro OUTDOOR grow I'd love to see it.

Hydro implies a reservoir, which consists of either water, or water and teas, or water and organic bottled nutes.

Who besides me has done a side by side of bottled organic nutes vs bottled chem nutes?

Also, to the big organic fans, who has not seen the Penn and Teller episode of Bullshit on organics? Real eye-opener that, in all of their blind taste tests people chose the non-organic bananas 90% of the time over organics. When they cut a non-organic banana in half and told people that half was organic, the people preferred the organic side, of the non-organic banana! Just shows you that folks are stupid and will buy what they're told is better.

That was a great episode!
The best thing about it was, even after people where faced with the truth they still completely ignored it and chose there faith in organics because it was easier to process ( no pun intended).

I think socrates was on the right path of questioning but misinterepted the desire of mans lack for truth rather then the desire for ease when it came to man not being able to see outside the cave. ( aka : Look outside the box)

Socrates " Be as you wish to seem".

 

[schwagg]

like mg75, i too am immediately thinking that "organic hydro" is an oxymoron

however, i also feel like stipulations to the effect that you can't consider an artificially lit garden to be organic are a little too stringent

if the nute sources are organic, than the grow can be certified thusly (yes, USDA, OMRI, oregon tilth, et al DO standardize and certify for organic standards)

BUT, if you spent too much on your "organic" grow, you are simply running a variation on a chem grow -one which may be "certified organic" but, which is not in the spirit of "organics." in today's market economy, organic has become a buzzword used to sell product -don't be surprised if you are then dissatisfied w/ the product. HELLO? dumbasses - they just want you to buy the product. "organic" means nothing to corp america. sustainability? just look at corps and banks and government tripping all over themselves to fuck themselves up. corp america knows nothing of sustainability.

WHY? would you buy a product from these entities w/ any expectation that it is what it says on the bottle?

organic ~ = biological - the spirit is that there is sustainability. Now, if you're going to the store (which is unavoidable at first and for a while) sustainability becomes questionable. If you throw soil away, sustainability becomes questionable.

however, if as much of your "products" come from your yard/neighbours/local farm what kind of sustainability is in this model?

People go to the local hardware store for lawn feed and dandelion poison and shit to fix what the lawn feed and dandelion poison did to their yard last year - then they go and buy the same crap again.

maybe they could mow w/ a mulching mower? maybe they could water w/ aquarium water when it's time to clean the fish tank? maybe we could let the dandelions grow and their life cycle could be feeding the lawn. And maybe we could compost our lawn clippings for the weed garden? (@ least once in a while bag your clippings) use the dandelion flowers for flower tea to feed the flowers? (and the greens to eat/compost?)

in this model, the consumer saves on all his "lawn care" products and produces their own ferts for a sustainable organic indoor garden -thus saving those expenses too.

Where could "organics costs more" possibly come into this discussion?

i just don't understand how someone who gives advice like "try GH" or "PBP nutes work" can turn around and say "organics=teh sux" because the bottle that said "organic" costs more and does the same thing.

organics done right becomes free over time.

i think you guys should read that one more time.

 

[Hovz]

Organic farming is appealing to many individuals wishing a time-out from our stressed out, hi-tech world.

Organic farmers typically spend a lot of time and effort improving their land. They make compost.

Organic farmers have a strong commitment to their land. If they don't abuse the land, it will provide for them and their families for many years to come. They are far less likely to use the kind of agricultural processes which result in:
1. toxic runoff and resulting water pollution
2. soil contamination and poisoning
3. death of insects, birds, critters and beneficial soil organisms

 

[RNDZL]

would real world examples of organic hydroponics not include all flora that has adapted to growing naturally in oceans, lake beds, ponds, inside the body of streams and all of the shore line of the previously mentioned?

 

[Hovz]

True organics with guanos and animal product are far more dangerous for your health when smoking/vaping. As is Soil for the most part. Smoking cadmium, nickle, iron, and other trace elements is not healthy. Would you eat a turd? would you smoke one? how about bonemeal? When we eat organic foods our body digests and uptakes the minerals. smoking them is converting them to a toxic carcinogen. I use salt based ferts and a substrate I can fully flush.

But doesn't the bacteria in the soil eat the fertilizer and convert it into food that the plant can eat? Marijuana smoke has carcinogens in it no matter grown organic or hydroponically.

 

[RNDZL]

But doesn't the bacteria in the soil eat the fertilizer and convert it into food that the plant can eat? Marijuana smoke has carcinogens in it no matter grown organic or hydroponically.

cannabis has never been proven to be a carcinogenic

smoke in of itself cause damage to the body

BUT NEVER HAS POT BEEN PROVEN TO CANCER

trust me prohibition been begging for evidence so they can use it as another excuse

 

[summitoker]

Great thread!
What i dont like about growing in soil is that sometimes the flavor seems to carry over to the nugs..... weed that tastes like peat moss and bone meal is no fun for anyone.

 

[growclean]

This thread is pretty funny. I see alot of discussion of "would you eat shit" and synthetic grown plants can taste/smoke as good as those grown without lab chemicals. All ridiculous.

First, beyond the point, but I would rather digest a handful of what my plants survive in rather than a cup of the unknown shit in the plastic bottle. Second, what you don't know can hurt you kids.... just because the banana tastes the same, doesn't mean it is. The only argument that i have seen to growing using chemicals is based upon profit or greed (larger yields, cheaper, easier). Sounds like McDonald's rationale, and I don't buy their shit either....

 

[Guest 88950]

damn, never tasted Bone Meal or Peat.........j/k

since the thread title is "organics suck, prove me wrong" i assume this would encompass anyone growing Organic, soil or hydro.

i have changed to Organics b/c i got tired of risking a trip to the hydro store and in my area LEO stalks those type of stores.

why spend the $$ continually on salt ferts and the necessary equip. needed to monitor ph, ppm/ec.

i can get all of the Meals needed to get my soil ready w/o risking a trip to the hydro store. i can reuse my soil...big + and go to the compost bin in the back yard for natures finest to brew up a tea.

for me Organics Rock and making all the trips to the hydro store to buy designer salt base ferts SUCKS.

 

[Hovz]

cannabis has never been proven to be a carcinogenic

smoke in of itself cause damage to the body

BUT NEVER HAS POT BEEN PROVEN TO CANCER

trust me prohibition been begging for evidence so they can use it as another excuse

I stopped caring about carcinogens when i heard using the BBQ could give me cancer.

 

[GreenShadows]

I favor organics because my immune system is weak and for long-term potential savings. Also I favor organics so that I am not exposed to 'potentially bad' chemicals.

I am horticulture student, and I have alot of problems with how people define what is organic or not.

You must feed the plants only Organic things for the plant to be "Organic" - Some plants need silicon, a silicon deficiency for these plants results in the plant being unable to function normally. [Can't remember the plant(s) the need silicon]

The argument of "it's only organic if it was grown under the sun" always come offs very elitist and arrogantly in tone. Maybe it's just me.

I have more to discuss and add but I'm too tired.

 

[ijimunot]

Organics. Build your soil, sow your seeds add water and smoke your results. Just to damn complicated for the normal person too grasp.
There is absolutely no nutrient difference between organic and hydro. You add nutrients to your soil before you plant with organics. Or you add nutrients to you reservoir at least weekly to your hydro.
You check your PH twice a week when you water with organics or you check it daily with hydro.
You have a twelve hour power failure with organics and you show your woman how much you love her. With hydro you are watering your plants by hand every 15 minutes.
Damn should I go hydro?

 

[growclean]

You check your PH twice a week when you water with organics or you check it daily with hydro.

I don't know how to check PH...

...is that a problem?

 

[Lazyman]

Organics. Build your soil, sow your seeds add water and smoke your results. Just to damn complicated for the normal person too grasp.
There is absolutely no nutrient difference between organic and hydro. You add nutrients to your soil before you plant with organics. Or you add nutrients to you reservoir at least weekly to your hydro.
You check your PH twice a week when you water with organics or you check it daily with hydro.
You have a twelve hour power failure with organics and you show your woman how much you love her. With hydro you are watering your plants by hand every 15 minutes.
Damn should I go hydro?

Shit I haven't hand watered a garden in years. Currently I use a gravity fed drip system regulated with Tropf Blumat auto-waterers. No pumps or timers. My system also automatically tops off all 5 reservoirs daily, again without power. My grow could go for weeks without my presence, though the reservoirs would be mostly plain water by then. I feed nutes and anything else you can fathom directly from the res to the drippers. After about 3 weeks my FFOF is largely inert, the original dry nutrients having been consume d or washed out, so it really is a hydro system.

To check my PH I glance at a meter mounted on a wall. Not too hard. It also tells me the water temp and concentration of solids in PPM.


Any problem can be overcome.

 

[cyber echo]

I think while arguing the price of organics vs. nutes you have to take a lot of things into consideration. Mainly where you live, what brands are available locally, the price they're available at. etc.

Here in the Netherlands, a good reputable dutch company called Plagron offers high quality organic soil mixes with 30% perlite, peat,worm castings, etc. The 50L bag of their premium soil mix costs 2 euros more than a 50L bag of canna coco, and the company clearly states not to add any nutes before the 6th week.
What would one add ? Not more than say canna terraflores, or any other organic bloom product, and definitely not at the same rate as say using soil-less mixes.

This wouldn't cost much, so you can't globally say organics is more expensive.
As a matter of fact, it would be cheaper for me to buy this soil + bloom nutes, than to buy coco, a bag of perlite, coco nutes, and essential additives, atleast for my small scale growtent operation. I understand it would cost more if u want to make your own composts, your own tea mixes, etc. But attention to detail will always cost more no matter what you choose imho.

In short, just saying that there are some great organic solutions out there that are not expensive at all, unfortunately they might not be available to everyone out there.

 

[BrotherGanja]

Granted, both of these grows were by what I consider experts in their field. The organic hydro grower and the non-organic grower were equally matched in skill and experience.

So, in light of that, why should a grower go organic? If the same yield and quality are produced, why take the longer road? Let's face it, if we are being honest, proper organic gardening is more intensive than non-. Where are the benefits?

The #1 reason to use organics when growing "Medicine" is the health factor for people and the enviroment. IMO we should treat medicine like food and if you do your research you will find synthetic ferts are harmful to the environment and surroundings. Also being geared towards sustainable practice I personally don't like the prefab nutes they are overpriced trash producing money vampires. It is so much more economical to do organic from a business perspective it is the move to go with. It also seems logical that if it is grown with natural organic ferts that it will be more benificial, it's in sync with nature and the divine creation of perfection. Nature functions in perfect balance and will deliver healthy healing plants.

 

[toohighmf]

you cannot fully flush organics or soil and the discussion is about organic hydro.
Unless you flush soil out for a month, it's going to be pretty tough to leach the ferts. I know exactly what's in my ferts. If you can't figure out why so much is grown hydro in substrates like rockwool or hydroton, (Holland) it's because we know exactly whats in the food and how to correct deficiencies, as well as have the ability to properly leach a plant, allowing it to metabolize itself of all the salts is safer and cleaner when done properly.

 

[baet]

if you want organic, try 100% vermicompost medium and EWC/compost tea, that's it.
adding additional guanos, fish, meals allows one type of microbe/fungi/bacteria to flourish etc, the control and harmony of your composts biology is now inbalanced, relying on what you now have to feed. that said, there are many ways to grow a plant, and do what works for you and what your comfortable with.

a balanced(fungi to bacteria) organic vermicompost(unless you have the right kind of microscope, you will have to most likely purchase your compost from someone who produces it on a large scale, which is still cheaper/as cheap than bags of the usual promix or FFOF type, and is reusable next season) medium performing within the organic soil food web is practically hands free.
also,
i reuse my beds of vermicompost every season. we've got big beds, dumping promix/FFOF out every season and replacing would be costly and kinda wasteful..

a lot of people(mainly hydroponic store employees) would tell me what i'm doing would never work.
but i can tell you that the guy who makes my vermicompost(a lot of places around northern california are beginning to make vermicompost) has done a side by side up in redding with FFOF,black gold,roots organic, and his compost fed only worm juice and water,and all i'll say is he's now got guys picking up 300 yards of vermicompost and trucking it all over northern california he literally can't make the stuff fast enough.


my only point i guess, is that the organic soil food web is ancient, tested, tried, it's been around forever, which means the microbes, nematodes, fungi, bacteria etc have created a harmony and relationship with the plant. and within a 100% vermicompost medium the biology is all there. the plant lets the microbes know what is desires and within the compost everything is present. all your nutrients and beneficials are being produced and taking care of by your microherd, i shit you not. the plant has a relationship with the biology of your medium.

the discussion on flushing a true organic medium lacks logic, or so i've been told. as long as you haven't disrupted the balance of your microherd by adding additional organic amendments that build up, the plant is in control of what it has the microbes make, and the microbes make everything the plant needs, so what would you be flushing....?

if you've smoked organic that wasn't smooth and tasted like crap, either it was the strain, or most likely the grower was treating
organic like chem.

edit:if you go the 100% vermicompost route(which is only one way to grow), you MUST not fuck around with ammonia based nitrogen, non soluble nutrients, or any NPK with a nitrogen above 4. basically the most successful vermicompost grows are the ones strictly fed only EWC/compost tea and that's it. i only say this because the biology of the compost, which is always being explained to me by the guys i know who went to school for the science, is a complete nutrient providing system that must remain in balance to do it's job, and that adding bottled organic nutes and having the ideology that your plant needs to be "fed" is most likely going to make your compost faulty and thus your plants will suffer

 

[osirica420]

chem nutrients with sea solid minerals which happens to be organic gives me the best buds overall...
i grew organic only for 2-3yrs and not going back to it...

 

[baet]

for me Organics Rock and making all the trips to the hydro store to buy designer salt base ferts SUCKS.

hhaah yup