smokinshogun
Member
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The Importance of Far-Red Light on Plant Development
- Thread starter smokinshogun
- Start date
Master_Blaster
New member
Excellent Post
Excellent Post
I think after reading your post that I will buy some Selective Reflective Mulch (SRM-Red). Thanks
Excellent Post
I think after reading your post that I will buy some Selective Reflective Mulch (SRM-Red). Thanks
L
L-Thirt33n
Nice find bro! Good write up!
Should be interesting to see if this holds true or not.
I'm going to try the SRM-Red this year too. Never heard of it. My research seems to support that it is highly effective outdoors.
Should be interesting to see if this holds true or not.
I'm going to try the SRM-Red this year too. Never heard of it. My research seems to support that it is highly effective outdoors.
I just started using a 100W (couldn't find a 120 or more) clear incandescent bulb, at the beginning of this bagseed grow, for a half hour of EOD light treatment.
It is also supposed to reduce flowering time, as well. By how much? I couldn't say, it might even be varietal specific. But, instinct tells me it might be as little as a couple of days or as much as a couple of weeks, but shortened none-the-less.
Namaste, mess
It is also supposed to reduce flowering time, as well. By how much? I couldn't say, it might even be varietal specific. But, instinct tells me it might be as little as a couple of days or as much as a couple of weeks, but shortened none-the-less.
Namaste, mess
First off, I forget my manners. Great post, well researched, well written and you made it very easy to understand! Thanks!
I could have sworn that I had a few more articles that dealt with FR, either directly or indirectly, but can't seem to find them. I will look them up and download them for reading when I have more time to let them soak in.
At any rate, you might find these of interest. A couple of them use LD plants in the hypothesis, but SD plants are alluded to on occasion. I don't pretend to fully understand them, but they definitely give me pause to think.
“Photoreceptors and Regulation of Flowering Time,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/123/1/39
“The Physiology and Molecular Bases of the Plant Circadian Clock,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/121/1/9
The Circadian Clock. A Plant’s Best Friend in a Spinning World
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/132/2/732
Also, I don't know if you already have these sites bookmarked or not, so I will include them, just in case, for your reference. If not, I fully understand the reluctance of some to click on links willy-nilly, but, if nothing else, clean out your cookies, history, cache, etc. and goo gle the following sites. I highly recommend, "Plant Physiology," a monthly publication of the American Society of Plant Biologists. They bill themselves as a free access site!
Archives of, “Plant Physiology,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/contents-by-date.0.shtml
Archives of, “The Plant Cell,” sister site of, “Plant Physiology,” (Note: Some or most, but not all, of these articles may have to be purchased.)
http://www.plantcell.org/contents-by-date.0.shtml
Namaste, mess
I could have sworn that I had a few more articles that dealt with FR, either directly or indirectly, but can't seem to find them. I will look them up and download them for reading when I have more time to let them soak in.
At any rate, you might find these of interest. A couple of them use LD plants in the hypothesis, but SD plants are alluded to on occasion. I don't pretend to fully understand them, but they definitely give me pause to think.
“Photoreceptors and Regulation of Flowering Time,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/123/1/39
“The Physiology and Molecular Bases of the Plant Circadian Clock,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/121/1/9
The Circadian Clock. A Plant’s Best Friend in a Spinning World
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/132/2/732
Also, I don't know if you already have these sites bookmarked or not, so I will include them, just in case, for your reference. If not, I fully understand the reluctance of some to click on links willy-nilly, but, if nothing else, clean out your cookies, history, cache, etc. and goo gle the following sites. I highly recommend, "Plant Physiology," a monthly publication of the American Society of Plant Biologists. They bill themselves as a free access site!
Archives of, “Plant Physiology,”
http://www.plantphysiol.org/contents-by-date.0.shtml
Archives of, “The Plant Cell,” sister site of, “Plant Physiology,” (Note: Some or most, but not all, of these articles may have to be purchased.)
http://www.plantcell.org/contents-by-date.0.shtml
Namaste, mess
Philosophelon
Member
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but here is my general understanding of the phytochrome thing --
Phytochrome in it's ground state (Pr) preferentially absorbs red light, which alters it to it's active state (Pfr) in which it preferentially absorbs far-red light. When Pfr absorbs far-red light it is converted back into Pr.
My question is, and perhaps I missed it later in your post, but what response does phytochrome in it's physiologically-active state (Pfr) cause in the plant? In other words, why do we want to be sure to provide far-red to convert the Pfr back to Pr?
Phytochrome in it's ground state (Pr) preferentially absorbs red light, which alters it to it's active state (Pfr) in which it preferentially absorbs far-red light. When Pfr absorbs far-red light it is converted back into Pr.
My question is, and perhaps I missed it later in your post, but what response does phytochrome in it's physiologically-active state (Pfr) cause in the plant? In other words, why do we want to be sure to provide far-red to convert the Pfr back to Pr?
Philosophelon
Member
Ah-ha, I see!
So the idea is that by leaving Pfr in it's active state, flowering response is inhibited, and by providing far-red to convert Pfr back into Pr a grower may realize a stronger flowering response, and perhaps faster flowering times or a more rapid/vigorous transition phase.
That is a very interesting hypothesis, and not very difficult to test, either!
I think I'll add a half-hour of incandescent light at lights out in my veg room to see if I can speed up my transition to flowering, maybe I'll even install one in the flowering room.
Kudos and K+, it's not every day that I run into a new variable that might give me better meds!
So the idea is that by leaving Pfr in it's active state, flowering response is inhibited, and by providing far-red to convert Pfr back into Pr a grower may realize a stronger flowering response, and perhaps faster flowering times or a more rapid/vigorous transition phase.
That is a very interesting hypothesis, and not very difficult to test, either!
I think I'll add a half-hour of incandescent light at lights out in my veg room to see if I can speed up my transition to flowering, maybe I'll even install one in the flowering room.
Kudos and K+, it's not every day that I run into a new variable that might give me better meds!
For all intents and purposes, it is the reason we flip from an 18/6 to a 12/12 light schedule. Weed is called a short day plant, but that is something of a misnomer. It is more a long night plant, as it is the length of darkness that tells the plant the long days of summer are over and it is time to get down to the business of survival of the species (i.e pollination, seed set, then death). The long night gives Pfr time to convert back to Pr and "resets" the circadian clock. A short night tells the plant just the opposite, that it is not yet time to flower and vegetative growth is still the primary goal. The End Of Day light treatment of a low R/FR ratio (or high Fr/R ratio, either is correct) at dusk just gives a nudge, if you will, towards a bit sooner conversion.
Namaste, mess
Mahalo nui loa!
Mahalo nui loa!
Friend, I've been waiting for you!
Might have some input as well.
Growing with homebrew LEDs gives me an experimenter's dream so I do a lot of it.
Presently using a Fr source in the bloom room.
(60 Watt, incandescent "black light" )
It toggles on about 10 minutes before the leds shut down and runs for another 20 minutes into the dark period.
Got 2 WW clones in coco under it.
One has been in flower for 3 weeks and the other for 2 weeks.
I have one girl under 625 nm. reds and one under 660 nm. reds.
Both have "Royal blue" leds 7:3 and both get the Fr.
It's only been 2 weeks, but...
The girl that had Fr from her flip date, did flower 2 days earlier.
It's really too soon to draw any conclusions though.
And I may be the sloppiest wanna-be weed wrangler you can find.
You have done every grower here a great service by posting excellent info in readable form.
I'm woefully under-educated but actually understand your posts.
I'll be happy to work on practical application and offer what resources I have to that end.
So, if you are mulling over anything that I can help with, don't be shy.
High Regard,
Wee Zard
Mahalo nui loa!
Its all pretty damn complicated, and despite the countless hours I've spent researching I still find myself clueless sometimes. There are a lot of different theories out there on how things work and none so far seem to explain everything perfectly. Most experiments involve plants which lack normal amounts of certain phytochromes, and then they compare the results to 'normal' plants. This allows them to find out the role for that type of phytochrome. I prefer the experiments where they change the R/FR ratios (whether overall or at end-of-day) or where certain parts of plants are covered.
" Pfr absorbs some red light, so in red light, there is a balance of 85% Pfr and 15% Pr. Pr absorbs very little far red light, so in far red light, there is a balance of 97% Pr to 3% Pfr"
I'll try to explain my theory sometime, and make a list of what effects would be beneficial for certian situations. For now, I can't personally say what works well...So attempt at your own risk!
....and there is a problem with the theory that plants can tell how long nights are by the amount PFR breakdown, read the last paragraph of this...I don't have a link for this though, sorry.
Friend, I've been waiting for you!
Might have some input as well.
Growing with homebrew LEDs gives me an experimenter's dream so I do a lot of it.
Presently using a Fr source in the bloom room.
(60 Watt, incandescent "black light" )
It toggles on about 10 minutes before the leds shut down and runs for another 20 minutes into the dark period.
Got 2 WW clones in coco under it.
One has been in flower for 3 weeks and the other for 2 weeks.
I have one girl under 625 nm. reds and one under 660 nm. reds.
Both have "Royal blue" leds 7:3 and both get the Fr.
It's only been 2 weeks, but...
The girl that had Fr from her flip date, did flower 2 days earlier.
It's really too soon to draw any conclusions though.
And I may be the sloppiest wanna-be weed wrangler you can find.
You have done every grower here a great service by posting excellent info in readable form.
I'm woefully under-educated but actually understand your posts.
I'll be happy to work on practical application and offer what resources I have to that end.
So, if you are mulling over anything that I can help with, don't be shy.
High Regard,
Wee Zard
Master_Blaster
New member
SRM red film...
SRM red film...
This is my 2 cents...I just bought some Better Reds Red Mulch Film for tomatoes. It reflects far red light back to your plant and according to the manufacturer (www.gardeneer.com) was developed by the US Department of Agriculture. This is the same stuff that was used in the university research sited on this GREAT thread. This plastic film is supposed to increase yield by 20% when used outdoors and its REALLY cheap.
You can find it on Google Shopping or Yahoo Shopping easily. I am gonna use it in my tiny cabinet grow with CFLs. I figure that even though CFLs don't produce very much far red spectrum, what little they do produce will hopefully get reflected back to my plants and increase my yield. http://www.icmag.com/ic/images/smilies/yeahthatsign.gif
This is just an experiment and I only spent 12 bucks on this stuff including shipping. Worth a try...
GREAT THREAD!
From the manufacturer website (gardeneer.com):
Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film
Better Reds™ reflects a specific range of light frequencies (far-red light) found in sunlight into the undersides of your crop's leaves and to the developing fruit. Research shows that some plants respond especially well to certain wavelengths of light - specifically, tomatoes.
Installation Instructions:
For new planting:
- Unfold Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film and lay flat on prepared garden soil.
- Cut an 'X' in the center of the 3'x3' square.
- Fold back the red film and dig a hole large enough for your seedling.
- Place plant in center, pack dirt back around seedling and then bring red mulch film back around plant.
- Use Garden Staples™, Garden Pegs™ or simply use rocks to hold down corners.
For established plants:
- Unfold Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film.
- Cut a slit from one side of the 3'x3' square to the center.
- Cut a 3" hole (approx.) and fit material around your plant.
- Use Garden Staples™, Garden Pegs™ or simply use rocks to hold down corners.
Note: You may plant more than one seedling per 3'x3' square if you are spacing your seedlings together, and if you place squares of Better Reds™ side by side.
Removing Better Reds:
- At the end of the season, cut tomato plant stem/stalk at the base and remove film.
- Shake off excess dirt, rinse with water and allow to air dry.
- Fold sheets for storage until next spring.
NOTES:
Perforated to allow water and air to reach plants.
For Best Results:
- All usual pre-planting soil preparation should be done prior to installing red mulch film.
- Drip-irrigation or soaker hoses may be installed under the film.
- The smoother the surface, the better the reflectivity will be; keep the film taut using Garden Staples or heavy objects such as stone or bricks in the corners.
- Windblown dust or dirt, residue from spraying, etc. may cause a buildup of surface dirt. Periodically clean the film surface with water.
SRM red film...
This is my 2 cents...I just bought some Better Reds Red Mulch Film for tomatoes. It reflects far red light back to your plant and according to the manufacturer (www.gardeneer.com) was developed by the US Department of Agriculture. This is the same stuff that was used in the university research sited on this GREAT thread. This plastic film is supposed to increase yield by 20% when used outdoors and its REALLY cheap.
You can find it on Google Shopping or Yahoo Shopping easily. I am gonna use it in my tiny cabinet grow with CFLs. I figure that even though CFLs don't produce very much far red spectrum, what little they do produce will hopefully get reflected back to my plants and increase my yield. http://www.icmag.com/ic/images/smilies/yeahthatsign.gif
This is just an experiment and I only spent 12 bucks on this stuff including shipping. Worth a try...
GREAT THREAD!
From the manufacturer website (gardeneer.com):
Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film
Better Reds™ reflects a specific range of light frequencies (far-red light) found in sunlight into the undersides of your crop's leaves and to the developing fruit. Research shows that some plants respond especially well to certain wavelengths of light - specifically, tomatoes.
Installation Instructions:
For new planting:
- Unfold Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film and lay flat on prepared garden soil.
- Cut an 'X' in the center of the 3'x3' square.
- Fold back the red film and dig a hole large enough for your seedling.
- Place plant in center, pack dirt back around seedling and then bring red mulch film back around plant.
- Use Garden Staples™, Garden Pegs™ or simply use rocks to hold down corners.
For established plants:
- Unfold Better Reds™ Red Mulch Film.
- Cut a slit from one side of the 3'x3' square to the center.
- Cut a 3" hole (approx.) and fit material around your plant.
- Use Garden Staples™, Garden Pegs™ or simply use rocks to hold down corners.
Note: You may plant more than one seedling per 3'x3' square if you are spacing your seedlings together, and if you place squares of Better Reds™ side by side.
Removing Better Reds:
- At the end of the season, cut tomato plant stem/stalk at the base and remove film.
- Shake off excess dirt, rinse with water and allow to air dry.
- Fold sheets for storage until next spring.
NOTES:
Perforated to allow water and air to reach plants.
For Best Results:
- All usual pre-planting soil preparation should be done prior to installing red mulch film.
- Drip-irrigation or soaker hoses may be installed under the film.
- The smoother the surface, the better the reflectivity will be; keep the film taut using Garden Staples or heavy objects such as stone or bricks in the corners.
- Windblown dust or dirt, residue from spraying, etc. may cause a buildup of surface dirt. Periodically clean the film surface with water.
amoril
Member
what wavelength of light is officially classified as FR?
now that the Q is out of the way...damn good thread. I remember reading some stuff about the degradation of Pfr to Pr being the key trigger in cannabis flowering. Naturally, it takes a few hours to degrade reverse, iirc.
Im whippin out my first IC subscription for this....speeding up the flowering reaction would be immense. Could almost immediately allow for 13-14 hour days indoors, if we could convert Pfr to Pr w/in minutes instead of hours. the true amount of time reacting to the Pr would be the same.
now that the Q is out of the way...damn good thread. I remember reading some stuff about the degradation of Pfr to Pr being the key trigger in cannabis flowering. Naturally, it takes a few hours to degrade reverse, iirc.
Im whippin out my first IC subscription for this....speeding up the flowering reaction would be immense. Could almost immediately allow for 13-14 hour days indoors, if we could convert Pfr to Pr w/in minutes instead of hours. the true amount of time reacting to the Pr would be the same.
amoril
Member
so, then what are you hoping to achieve?
If I understand the last few posts correctly, it appears that if the ratio of Fr:r is large enough, the plant could be illuminated during the dark period?
but, thats not photosynthetic, and if the phytochrome isnt the regulation method for flowering, then what is our practical advantage to performing this?
If I understand the last few posts correctly, it appears that if the ratio of Fr:r is large enough, the plant could be illuminated during the dark period?
but, thats not photosynthetic, and if the phytochrome isnt the regulation method for flowering, then what is our practical advantage to performing this?
