The autoflowering trait - how does it function?

[teerull]

G'day ICMAG community
(this is gonna be a long one, so I'd light that fatty)


I've recently taken interest in outdoor growing but since I live at 59' north my strain selection is pretty much limited to autoflowers or the so-called "semi-autoflowering" / highly light sensitive strains. Therefore I have taken quite a bit of interest in these strains and probably want to do some pollen-chucking to create my own unique "strain" with a few year project. To do that however I need some more details about the specific autoflowering trait.



With my first question I would like to know something about the semi-autoflowering properties: Are the genes responsible for autoflowering and semi-autoflowering the same?
My logic tells me that they are not. From what I know, autoflowering means that the plant will start flowering according to its age rather than the photoperiod and that would not have a direct link with the genes that control light-sensitivity (semi-autoflowering). Am I understanding this correctly?




From what I've gathered, the genes responsible for the autoflowering trait are recessive ones, hence you need a few generations till it starts showing 100%. Which brings me to my next question: Do the autoflowering genes follow Mendel's laws?

I know that Cannabis is an extremely complicated plant and most of the traits do not abide by the the simple Mendel's laws, however is that the case with the autoflowering traits? I have made a simple plan (based on how I understand/hope it works).

The plan
I would start off with a "regular" daylight neutral strain and an autoflowering strain. I do not have the specific strains chosen yet but I figured pretty much any of the newer "better" autoflowers would be a good place to look (eg. Mdanzings Blue Streak or Sour60 or SGS' Pink bud etc).

P1 = regular (AA)
P2 = the autoflower (aa)

F1 - 100% Aa
P1 x P2 would give me 100% Aa plants. And not any of the plants would express the autoflowering. This generation would be a critical one to select for the other traits I'm looking for, right? + you can keep the parent stock as clones too.

F2 - 25% AA; 50% Aa; 25% aa
The F2 generation would be made with lets say 2-3 of my favourite/plants-showing-most-desired-traits females and 4-5 males from the F1 generation to avoid the bottleneck effect as much as possible and keep as many genes in the pool. The offspring would then be (Aa x Aa) 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa ; the last 25% being what I'm after. This generation would obviously have to be grown out under 20/4 or 24/0 to find the 25% I'm looking for.

F3 - 100% aa
With this generation I could bring the autoflowering to 100% by using the most desirable plants from the 25% which expressed the autoflowering and crossing them. aa x aa = 100% aa.

Question: How much would I benefit from backcrossing to the F1 generations selected females? I am guessing quite a bit if my goal is to get a closer expression to the original non-autoflowering plant, right? (If I went that route the F3 would give me aa x Aa(F1) = 50% Aa; 50% aa. This would then have to be taken to F4 to get 100% autoflowering)
​

Does this sound legit? Am I on the right tracks or am I way off?

Any input appreciated!
Peace,
T

 

[SGS]

Fatty lit bro! and thanks for taking to time to research all the AF info before posting up bro, it helps a lot to give you the best answers. All my answers are based on many yrs of R&D, but take them for what you will, I dont know anything for sure until we can genetically map Cannabis.

SGS

G'day ICMAG community
(this is gonna be a long one, so I'd light that fatty)


I've recently taken interest in outdoor growing but since I live at 59' north my strain selection is pretty much limited to autoflowers or the so-called "semi-autoflowering" / highly light sensitive strains. Therefore I have taken quite a bit of interest in these strains and probably want to do some pollen-chucking to create my own unique "strain" with a few year project. To do that however I need some more details about the specific autoflowering trait.



With my first question I would like to know something about the semi-autoflowering properties: Are the genes responsible for autoflowering and semi-autoflowering the same?
My logic tells me that they are not. From what I know, autoflowering means that the plant will start flowering according to its age rather than the photoperiod and that would not have a direct link with the genes that control light-sensitivity (semi-autoflowering). Am I understanding this correctly?

From what I've gathered, the genes responsible for the autoflowering trait are recessive ones, hence you need a few generations till it starts showing 100%.

Acutally you are correct in a way, In my research there are at least 2 genes that control True AF (flowering under continuious light). I also see that 1 of these genes is much more dominant then the other. There is evidence in this when making the first F1 AF x NON AF cross. The offspiring are almost always faster and earlier flowering outdoors then the original NON-AF parent that was used. F1s and F2 show some AF traits, early flowering, stessed flowering, faster flowering, very sensitive to photo period changes. The other gene seems to be very reccessive, requireing focused selection to lock it down. When both of these genes are dominant you get 100% Auto-Flowering. I call them AF-A and AF-B. AF-A is dominant (the so called Semi-AF gene), AF-B is recessive (the True Auto-Flowering gene when combined with AF-A).

Which brings me to my next question: Do the autoflowering genes follow Mendel's laws?

YES! but there is a lot of variation in cannbis so expect some mutations to occur that maybe unexpected and not textbook Mendel.

I know that Cannabis is an extremely complicated plant and most of the traits do not abide by the the simple Mendel's laws, however is that the case with the autoflowering traits? I have made a simple plan (based on how I understand/hope it works).

The plan
I would start off with a "regular" daylight neutral strain and an autoflowering strain. I do not have the specific strains chosen yet but I figured pretty much any of the newer "better" autoflowers would be a good place to look (eg. Mdanzings Blue Streak or Sour60 or SGS' Pink bud etc).

P1 = regular (AA)
P2 = the autoflower (aa)

F1 - 100% Aa
P1 x P2 would give me 100% Aa plants. And not any of the plants would express the autoflowering. This generation would be a critical one to select for the other traits I'm looking for, right? + you can keep the parent stock as clones too.

F2 - 25% AA; 50% Aa; 25% aa
The F2 generation would be made with lets say 2-3 of my favourite/plants-showing-most-desired-traits females and 4-5 males from the F1 generation to avoid the bottleneck effect as much as possible and keep as many genes in the pool. The offspring would then be (Aa x Aa) 25% AA, 50% Aa and 25% aa ; the last 25% being what I'm after. This generation would obviously have to be grown out under 20/4 or 24/0 to find the 25% I'm looking for.

You are correct, Use as many plants as you can when you grow out your F2s to find as many True AF plants to make your selections of the best traits more easy.

F3 - 100% aa
With this generation I could bring the autoflowering to 100% by using the most desirable plants from the 25% which expressed the autoflowering and crossing them. aa x aa = 100% aa.

The F3s is where you start your selection process after you have locked down the AF trait 100%, BUT please be sure to select the best AF traits at least 1 more time to F4s as you don't want to select a weak AF specimen for the final lock down. If you do you will lead into variation into the actual flowering times of your new AF hybrid, some finishing in 9 weeks and others in 11. After the F4s you can truely focus on other traits such as height, yeild, potency and so on,, but you should have been doing that a bit before too.

Question: How much would I benefit from backcrossing to the F1 generations selected females? I am guessing quite a bit if my goal is to get a closer expression to the original non-autoflowering plant, right? (If I went that route the F3 would give me aa x Aa(F1) = 50% Aa; 50% aa. This would then have to be taken to F4 to get 100% autoflowering)
​

DON'T! All you would be doing is starting your project over again. Your new AF has 50% of each parent your F1 has the same, the most you could do is select an F1 that show just a bit more dominance of the NON-AF parent. Do this instead, just backcross to the Original NON -AF parent plant if you can! Keep that NON AF alive male or female in clone until you can use her to back cross your Original AF project back to the NON-AF. This will give you a 75% genetic dominance of the NON-AF parent but can still be pulled down to a True AF after your selections,, but I would go out to F4 AF selection before performing the AF Bx NON-AF. That way you know you have sound AF genetics to work with.


Does this sound legit? Am I on the right tracks or am I way off?

No way bro you got it down right! Good research! REP +


Any input appreciated!
Peace,
T

Check out this thread for more info on AF theories. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194003


Peace SGS

 

[*mr.mike*]

Do the autoflowering genes follow Mendel's laws?

No. I and many others have crossed 3rd, 4th, etc. autoflowering plants with other autos and found non-autos in the offspring. 100% is down the road from the 3rd generation, and may not even be on the same side of the street.

Some strains, like ak47, for example, seem to get auto'd easier than others.

Really, you won't get 100% auto (for sure) until the 5th generation, just to be safe. That is when you start selecting for traits you like. Potency, size, shape, etc... All you have to do is look at varieties of autos that mention "phenos" or "variability".... this means UNSTABLE and the only thing that is nailed (or duct-taped and chewing-gummed down) is the auto trait.

It's all so "easy" that you only have to look at the auto buyer's guide to find out how many people/companies sell "autos" that they have painstakingly worked that aren't really auto at all.

No, there's no economy-class ticket to full AF.

 

[teerull]

Thank you for the replies!

SGS, that link seems to be a gold mine, I can't understand how I missed it! Thanks a bunch for it all!

Mike, I understand that there's no economy class ticket many of the "breeders" seem to take. So you reckon they sell their "F3" or the "F4" generation as an autoflower when these results occur?

 

[SGS]

Thank you for the replies!

SGS, that link seems to be a gold mine, I can't understand how I missed it! Thanks a bunch for it all!

You're welcome bro!

Mike, I understand that there's no economy class ticket many of the "breeders" seem to take. So you reckon they sell their "F3" or the "F4" generation as an autoflower when these results occur?

Yes they do, that is why you will see a lot of variation in the strains they offer.

I disagree with MIKE a bit, cannabis does follow Mendels mapping but there is so much variation and many reccessive traits in cannabis you might see crap show up unexpectedly, but that doesnt mean it isnt following. It just means you have more work to do to stablize then you thought. Also, It would only take a breeder to F5 to get 100% AF if he used unstable AF genetics in the first place. 100% AFs can and have been locked down at F3 it all depends on your AF parent stock you use. F4s are perfectly 100% stable for the AF trait. But that doesn't mean anything for all the other traits, it will take more generations to lock down all the traits you are looking for.

True Stable AFs take at least to F6 at the earliest if you are lucky and get very little variation, up to F8, at this stage in breeding if you haven't locked down most of your traits by then you might want too look at how you're making your selections for each parent and focus on variables you didn't think where there in your selection process.

I wish you the best of luck in your breeding projects bro, it will be a great year of happiness or disapointment, But i think you can pull it off. You are going to make a project thread I hope??

SGS just curious what AF and NON AF where you planning on using?

 

[teerull]

Well, I first have to sort out a few if's and how's about the "facilities" but when the time comes (and hopefully it will), in general, yes. I would document the whole thing on ICMAG. There's not enough to share with this community, you know. It has taught me everything i know so far about the world of cannabis and I'd definitely want to give something back as well


As for what I am planning to use... I'm not sure yet. I have this SSSDH female from Rez/OJD that is very special to me. Incredibly sour, 13weeks flowering time and the most potent herb i've tried without a doubt...The thing is that from what I've read Rez has also shown significant interest in turning the SSSDH into an AF and that kinda pushes me off the idea a bit.... I simply do not think I should do it when someone else (either You or Mdanzing) would do a much better job. Hell I haven't even grown out an autoflower in my life. I don't plan on becoming a "breeder" though so the commercial aspect is not in my plans and Rez usually doesn't have a problem with using his genetics for pollen-chucking from what I've read. Obviously if he doesn't like the idea of me using the SSSDH, I wont but regardless you can see my dilemma.

Here's a two pictures of the SSSDH I'm talking about


The other non-AF I have in mind is an African sativa, Angolan to be exact, if I can get my hands on the seeds... The thing is, I have not grown them out yet so I do not know what to expect from there or if I will even like them, but they do sound extremely interesting from what I've read and seen. What ever happens, the general direction is a sativa. I love em.


When it comes to the AF side, I haven't really decided anything but the Sour60 would be my first suitable guess for what I'm looking for (eg. good branching and a "bigger" AF than average + the fact that it has SourBubble in its genes so maybe i can reinforce the sour smells and tastes). What do you think I should choose?



peace,
T

 

[CFP65]

@SGS
Quote:
Acutally you are correct in a way, In my research there are at least 2 genes that control True AF (flowering under continuious light). I also see that 1 of these genes is much more dominant then the other. There is evidence in this when making the first F1 AF x NON AF cross. The offspiring are almost always faster and earlier flowering outdoors then the original NON-AF parent that was used. F1s and F2 show some AF traits, early flowering, stessed flowering, faster flowering, very sensitive to photo period changes. The other gene seems to be very reccessive, requireing focused selection to lock it down. When both of these genes are dominant you get 100% Auto-Flowering. I call them AF-A and AF-B. AF-A is dominant (the so called Semi-AF gene), AF-B is recessive (the True Auto-Flowering gene when combined with AF-A).


so what you are saying is that a true auto Low Ryder #1 has only
AF-B alleles that when recombined with a NON-AF turns into AF-A semi auto flowering. and that as long as there is AF-A present it will be dominant over AF-B

that is The AF-B will be there in all F1 offspring only it will be masked by the dominance of the mix product AF-A?

 

[SGS]

@SGS
Quote:
Acutally you are correct in a way, In my research there are at least 2 genes that control True AF (flowering under continuious light). I also see that 1 of these genes is much more dominant then the other. There is evidence in this when making the first F1 AF x NON AF cross. The offspiring are almost always faster and earlier flowering outdoors then the original NON-AF parent that was used. F1s and F2 show some AF traits, early flowering, stessed flowering, faster flowering, very sensitive to photo period changes. The other gene seems to be very reccessive, requireing focused selection to lock it down. When both of these genes are dominant you get 100% Auto-Flowering. I call them AF-A and AF-B. AF-A is dominant (the so called Semi-AF gene), AF-B is recessive (the True Auto-Flowering gene when combined with AF-A).


so what you are saying is that a true auto Low Ryder #1 has only
AF-B alleles that when recombined with a NON-AF turns into AF-A semi auto flowering. and that as long as there is AF-A present it will be dominant over AF-B


that is The AF-B will be there in all F1 offspring only it will be masked by the dominance of the mix product AF-A?

I wasnt going to get into it to deeply but i guess it is time to,, Im going to revise my Theory of Auto-Flowering Origins and explain how AF works and becomes dominanant in my own words. I will be working on this tomorow I will post up a link to the thread as it will be in the SGS Forums.

SGS