Bubbleblower
Member
Worst of all he ruins every single interesting thread.
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Terpin production according to nutrients
- Thread starter MJPassion
- Start date
Worst of all he ruins every single interesting thread.
N. Accumbens
Member
Interesting question, how does "...epigenetic regulation link plant nutrients with mono-/sesquiterpene biosynthesis."
I do believe there are some labs using NMR for cannabinoid detection.
Any specific questions?
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Regarding terpenoid production. Yes, it appears that all conditions the same, even within a single "table" in a room one will have differences, all based on matters like where your "wind" was coming from and where your "water" source was coming from.
In nature, one will find the same 'phenomena' occur. Yes, terpenes do vary in a direct response to environmental conditions such as nutrient differences, naturally.
-Nacc
I do believe there are some labs using NMR for cannabinoid detection.
Any specific questions?
-----
Regarding terpenoid production. Yes, it appears that all conditions the same, even within a single "table" in a room one will have differences, all based on matters like where your "wind" was coming from and where your "water" source was coming from.
In nature, one will find the same 'phenomena' occur. Yes, terpenes do vary in a direct response to environmental conditions such as nutrient differences, naturally.
-Nacc
I think that it is well known that the terpene profile of the same clone can be altered (%'s of each terpene in the profile), I thought what was more interesting is if it just the terpene profile that is altered, or if any new terpenes are found because of nutrients or the environment. I doubt the later as terpene production is genetically controlled.
-SamS
-SamS
only been testing with the cheap sensing equipment i shipped with. but i'd definitely say the nutrients used in whatever ratios effect the final product.
i'm sure that's the reason organic buds turn out better. plant takes what it needs from an abundant pool of sources vs chemical ferts which only supply prescribed ratios of certain elements.
chemicals
organics
He has tested Cannabis with proton NMR and continues to do so, and several other Cannabis labs have NMR available and have started using it. Most are connected to a University, maybe the recent handful of newer, smaller, cheaper, bench top NMRs will allow wider use if NMR? Or at least understanding of any potential value for Cannabis analysis.
-SamS
Plants can smell other plants. They react and sense chemicals in the air. Healthy plants do this more, they smell more. I'd say micro nutrients are what are used for these plant functions, which you can't have a plant without the basics. Plants also suck up what's in the water and makes it through cell walls. So a lot of chemicals can influence the smell and taste if enough is absorbed. Some people notice and can tell what a bud has been fed. A double blind study would be cool?
I've noticed a lot of differences between chem grown, hydro with pure blend pro, red wood mulch, native soils, and native soils with epsoma top dressing. I find red wood mulch exposed buds are acrid. Pure blend plants where fairly good and natural with a flush, but sorta bland without. Sweetness are bummers in my experience with b'cuzz, overly fake and sweet. Native soil with a higher ph got the "cream" taste and smell (heavenly).
I've noticed a lot of differences between chem grown, hydro with pure blend pro, red wood mulch, native soils, and native soils with epsoma top dressing. I find red wood mulch exposed buds are acrid. Pure blend plants where fairly good and natural with a flush, but sorta bland without. Sweetness are bummers in my experience with b'cuzz, overly fake and sweet. Native soil with a higher ph got the "cream" taste and smell (heavenly).
Honestly, that epigenetic thing is, at least for the time being, as useful for a grower as a radio telescope in his bedroom (unless ET is the last hope of saving your crops)... I was just giving a certain person the possibility to work his way up the intellectual pecking order. Reminds me of which: thanks BB for joining, the competition is sooo much more fun with you around!
Back to topic...
Things we haven't considered are yet:
Many of our plants grow at the upper biological limit. Essential nutrients are often in abundance and the regulatory mechanisms for volatile terpenes can function independently of regulatory mechanisms for nutrient uptake/transport. Slight fluctuation will not be registered unless it's that of the weakest link.
On the other hand, growing on deficient soil or under pest challenge makes the former depending on the latter. Nutrient metabolism is diverted in order to reduce the threat (grow roots, fight diseases, survive drought). In some cases, terpenoid synthesis is hampered due limited supply and because it just use up scarce energy, in other cases it is boosted because some terpenes are useful to fight pests which cause the nutrient shortage. Many aromatic herbs produce, though a lower biomass, a higher concentration of volatiles under suboptimal/stressful conditions. Such stress is often absent in our plants and that's where the application of JA, SA, chitosan, and so on come into play. We want full growth and a certain stress response too (which is completely unnatural).
When talking about nutrients, do we only include essential nutrients (inorganic salts, O2, H2O, and CO2) or also 'metabolic' nutrients such as carbohydrates, amino acids, and lipids?
Unlike the former, the latter are also directly involved in pest sensing and plant defence and hence volatile terpene production. Plants have an extensive sugar signalling network which, at least in theory and in thale cress, affects secondary metabolite production. Amino acids such as glutamate, proline, glycine, and aspartic acid are in the middle of stress responses and herbivore sensing etc. Lipids play a crucial role as precursors for signalling molecules which are also linked to secondary metabolite production.
Some of these 'nutrients' are used as additives to influence plant metabolism. Though often, quite high concentrations are needed and are most effective on seedlings and young plants whereas they serve mainly as microbial food when given to adult plants.
Back to topic...
Things we haven't considered are yet:
Many of our plants grow at the upper biological limit. Essential nutrients are often in abundance and the regulatory mechanisms for volatile terpenes can function independently of regulatory mechanisms for nutrient uptake/transport. Slight fluctuation will not be registered unless it's that of the weakest link.
On the other hand, growing on deficient soil or under pest challenge makes the former depending on the latter. Nutrient metabolism is diverted in order to reduce the threat (grow roots, fight diseases, survive drought). In some cases, terpenoid synthesis is hampered due limited supply and because it just use up scarce energy, in other cases it is boosted because some terpenes are useful to fight pests which cause the nutrient shortage. Many aromatic herbs produce, though a lower biomass, a higher concentration of volatiles under suboptimal/stressful conditions. Such stress is often absent in our plants and that's where the application of JA, SA, chitosan, and so on come into play. We want full growth and a certain stress response too (which is completely unnatural).
When talking about nutrients, do we only include essential nutrients (inorganic salts, O2, H2O, and CO2) or also 'metabolic' nutrients such as carbohydrates, amino acids, and lipids?
Unlike the former, the latter are also directly involved in pest sensing and plant defence and hence volatile terpene production. Plants have an extensive sugar signalling network which, at least in theory and in thale cress, affects secondary metabolite production. Amino acids such as glutamate, proline, glycine, and aspartic acid are in the middle of stress responses and herbivore sensing etc. Lipids play a crucial role as precursors for signalling molecules which are also linked to secondary metabolite production.
Some of these 'nutrients' are used as additives to influence plant metabolism. Though often, quite high concentrations are needed and are most effective on seedlings and young plants whereas they serve mainly as microbial food when given to adult plants.
curbiechris
Member
if terpene production is influenced by... genetics and enviroment.
then nutrients will effect terpene production. then predators will influence terpene production.
what are specific variables in an enviroment that can cause higher linalool levels or myrcene levels?
would introducing different natural pest predators produce less pungent varieties?
follow me on this one... if scent is viewed like sound then what are higher note scents and lower note scents. Even better, ultra violet scents or sub harmonic scents. Meaning, scents we can't pick up, but other creatures and instruments may pick up (carbon monoxide meters).
great read everybody!
then nutrients will effect terpene production. then predators will influence terpene production.
what are specific variables in an enviroment that can cause higher linalool levels or myrcene levels?
would introducing different natural pest predators produce less pungent varieties?
follow me on this one... if scent is viewed like sound then what are higher note scents and lower note scents. Even better, ultra violet scents or sub harmonic scents. Meaning, scents we can't pick up, but other creatures and instruments may pick up (carbon monoxide meters).
great read everybody!
I like the way you think!
curbiechris
Member
been learnin from you fools for the past 15 years
Bubbleblower
Member
Absolutely nothing is more usefull and important.
Yes, a lot.
Drought, low RH or cold it seems and the effects will be bigger with indica's than sativa's.
TBH I have only studied the upper side
The higher notes are the ones people vote for most:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=302142
The lower notes are the ones nobody votes for.
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So, explain to us how that could possibly be utilised outside of a research lab? How is epigenetics practical? What can a gardener learn from it, how can he verify it, and how change it to his will? I'd appreciate you elaborating on the subject.
Not even in humans do we know enough on how it works, by what it's triggered, or what it does nor for how long. Sure, epigenetic and other regulatory mechanisms play an important role in the everyday life of humans and plants. A lot of things we do to us and our plants will affect gene expression and that one is dependent on epigenetic regulations but right now, there's nothing targeted growers could do in this regard (unless you would want to try SAHA on plants... I wonder if it works...).
Just to let you know, I worked with HDAC and I'm co-author of a book chapter about epigenetic regulations. Meaning, I have a fair idea what I'm talking about but to my best knowledge I have no idea how that could help me grow 'better' plants. Please, enlighten me!
The answer is in the fact that terpenes are plant secondary metabolites. There has been lots of research on the subject and what creates the right balance for plants to express their genetic potential. So focusing on plant health with organic soils.. Then most importantly for us, preserving these metabolites once they are produced. By maintaining and practicing the proper environment, harvest, extraction and storage techniques. The terpene topic is diverse but production of individual terpenes and what makes each vary in % is one of so many possibilities we may never know. Its almost as if it were encrypted by Mother nature. As a grower, focusing on key points of what makes secondary metabolites and understanding soil health & soil biology should be the main areas of focus. Do this and let the plant show you what it has to offer. Then its on to mastering preservation techniques.
My2...
My2...
i have some ideas on it. but you're not gonna listen cuz my leaves aren't pretty.
Stiggy, that's one of the most moronic and unproductive posts I've ever seen from you.
First, share your thoughts; telling people you know something but then not telling it because you are what ashamed? makes you look way more stupid than having funny ideas.
Second, making people listen isn't about why but how you communicate.
And third, what do ugly (or beautiful) plants have to do with it? Having a green thumb is just that. Having an eye for details or the wits to understand them are something entirely different. At least half the scientific understanding on plant physiology comes from growing, breeding and especially inbreeding sick, crippled, abnormal, and mutant plants.
First, share your thoughts; telling people you know something but then not telling it because you are what ashamed? makes you look way more stupid than having funny ideas.
Second, making people listen isn't about why but how you communicate.
And third, what do ugly (or beautiful) plants have to do with it? Having a green thumb is just that. Having an eye for details or the wits to understand them are something entirely different. At least half the scientific understanding on plant physiology comes from growing, breeding and especially inbreeding sick, crippled, abnormal, and mutant plants.
Revegging a plant can change the profile, suppression may
be more accurate.
Cannabis is a tricky plant.
Great thread.
Thank you Chi for taking the time to stop in with this gold nugget.
Thank you too Sam.
I was hoping you two would chime in with some sort of experience invthe subject matter.
OO,
If you read Chimeras post very carefully, you will notice that he left a lil clue about the "say all end all" answers you are asking for.
I'm quite positive you will have to search for those answers on your own or start another thread concerning the subject matter you'd like to discuss.
I thank you for the relevant input here.
This thread is about terpin profile changes when only nutrients are the variable input, not test equipment.
I was hoping you two would chime in with some sort of experience invthe subject matter.
OO,
If you read Chimeras post very carefully, you will notice that he left a lil clue about the "say all end all" answers you are asking for.
I'm quite positive you will have to search for those answers on your own or start another thread concerning the subject matter you'd like to discuss.
I thank you for the relevant input here.
This thread is about terpin profile changes when only nutrients are the variable input, not test equipment.
I don't give a shit about ugly plants!
I grow em too.
I be a imperfect perfectionist yaaaa.
What are your ideas?
