Tent grow issues after transplat to 4gal pots /lots of pictures/

[ericsson]

Hello fellaz, long time NO C!

Recently I've started a new tent-grow (3x3x6.5) and after transplanting the plants from 1.5gal to 4gal pots they started showing some signs if sickness. I also have a feeling the growth really slowed down. The transplant took place about 2 weeks ago.

Here goes "the chart"

How long has this problem been going on? - last two weeks
What STRAIN are you growing? - Critical Sensi Star
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) - seed
What is the age of your plants? - 10 weeks
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now? - 10 weeks
How Tall are the plants? - about 1ft
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) - between veg&flo (flipped 3 days ago)
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) - FIM / LST / Supercropping
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 4gal
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) good quality potting soil with peat, mixed with coco (about 70/30 ratio) and added perite, hydroton, blood meal, fish meal, epsom salts, basalt , biohumus
What brand Nutrient's are you using? BioBizz range
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? following the BioBizz feed chart
How often are you feeding? every other watering
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients? about 1 week ago
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect) veg first, bloom after (they go in all together anyway)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? don't know/don't measure
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? don't know/don't measure
How often are you testing pH/ppm/EC/TDS? haven't tested
How often are you watering? about every 5days
What size bulb are you using 400W MH (going to HPS tomorrow)
How old is your bulb? 10 weeks
What is the distance to the canopy? about 1.5ft
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) between 70-80%
What is the canopy temperature? 70*F lights on
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) 70*F on / 60*F off
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) 5" circular duct fan
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ? on with the lights (cool-tube), during time off switches on every hour, passive intake
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? no, I allow to top layer to dry and water then checking soil-moisture with my finger
Is your water HARD or SOFT? medium-soft
What water are you using? tap left to stand for at least 24h

So here is the link to my album, showing whats going on.
I've done some reading and my first thoughts were either cal/mag def or sulfur issues (although I've added epsom salts to the soil mix, perhaps not enough - around 1tsp per gallon of soil). It's really not the same for each and every plant (in a few there's been some leaf twisting, some new growth affected etc.), but mainly the older fan leaves started showing these signs (although as mentioned, it's not a rule). Another thing coming to mind are PH problems - is it a must to get some gear and try checking both the soil and runoff PH?

There's quite some pictures, so anyone popping in please take a look and tell me what you see! Also, are they fine to continue into flowering, or with this happening (it's still to a rather small degree, but visible nevertheless) should I get these back to 12/2 untill I manage to fix things?

Many thanks for you input - stay safe & overgrow the world!
e

PS One picture of the little red, small creatures are coming from the inside of the lid of my compost bin, which is in the same room. What are these things (quite shiny and "pop" when you press them hard) and are they a hazard to my grow? I've tried to carefully observe the plants/tent and haven't found anything crawling around so far. Earlier there was plenty of fungus gnats in the compost bin and recently there's barely any - is it possible that these red things are some sort of predators, eating the fungus gnats and their larva's - or should I worry about them? In seems they don't leave the perimeter of the compost.

 

[Granger2]

ericsson,
Several things possible. Your plant color is good, but damage is apparent, and you could have multiple problems. I don't think nutes are it. First, try the potato test. Lay 1 inch thick, 2.5 cm, slices of raw potato on the surface of the medium. Check bottom side daily for a week or 2 for any soil pests. This works well for Root Aphids and other things. If you have had RA's in the past, I would strongly suggest getting after making that determination ASAP. They can rapidly become critical.

It's peculiar that you have leaves dying that are very green, but crispy.

It appears that something is rasping your leaves. Are you checking the underside of the leaves? I can't tell if those red critters have 6 [insects] or 8 [mites] legs. I'd really try to get your compost bin out of the room. Good luck. -granger

 

[Easy7]

The smaller plants in your gallery look over watered and over fed. I'm not sure about your other plants, go ahead with what Granger2 suggests.

 

[ericsson]

ericsson,
Several things possible. Your plant color is good, but damage is apparent, and you could have multiple problems. I don't think nutes are it. First, try the potato test. Lay 1 inch thick, 2.5 cm, slices of raw potato on the surface of the medium. Check bottom side daily for a week or 2 for any soil pests. This works well for Root Aphids and other things. If you have had RA's in the past, I would strongly suggest getting after making that determination ASAP. They can rapidly become critical.

It's peculiar that you have leaves dying that are very green, but crispy.

It appears that something is rasping your leaves. Are you checking the underside of the leaves? I can't tell if those red critters have 6 [insects] or 8 [mites] legs. I'd really try to get your compost bin out of the room. Good luck. -granger

Thanks for stopping by G.,
I also wouldn't suspect nutes, as I've been staying more on the lower side of suggested dosage. The potato is laying down and I'll be checking what's up (never had RA - really hoping it won't be the case this time either!). There are one or two leaf's that look like something would be nibbling on them, but other than that I haven't found any signs of pests in the tent - been looking under the leafs, under the pots and on the soil.. unless it's something too small to see without a microscope.
Here are another few pic's from today:


As for possible PH problems - I understand that old growth would be affected in the first place? Most of the affected leafs start with crisp-browning (and curling up) of the tips, others have the strange spotting. Would you advise checking the PH right away, or this doesn't look like a lockout waiting to happen? Also, would you say I'm ok to continue into the flo period, or should I flop these back until the issues get fixed? I still can't beat the impression the plants have really slowed-down with the growth and I'd say they're pretty much the same as last week..

The problem with the compost bin is that it's winter and I can keep in a the balcony, as worms living in it will freeze. Again, I haven't noticed anything coming out of the bin (apart from a few fungus gnats flying around when there was a good few living in the compost).

The smaller plants in your gallery look over watered and over fed. I'm not sure about your other plants, go ahead with what Granger2 suggests.

Hello and thank you for the input as well. I don't think over-feeding is a possibility here and try to give them a good break between waterings - so it seems that anything affecting both older and younger plants is in the soil.

Appreciate the help guys!
e.

 

[Easy7]

Your reported humidity is very high. I wonder if this is something.

 

[ericsson]

I always thought it's supposed to be that high during veg?

Considering that flo is starting now I know I gotta start bringing it down, but where should it be kept at during veg&flo - as it looks like I may have obtained incorrect knowledge some years ago (or simply don't remember things right).

 

[ericsson]

no other ideas / suggestions / thoughts?

so far the the "potato test" hasn't (luckily) shown any type of infestation taking place, therefore it look like I'll have to be looking elsewhere. Who even can - please give us a hand here

e.

 

[OrganicFarmer]

You're feeding them too much... With all that added food to the soil, you really don't need to use the added fertilizer yet(if at all). How often are you watering? Remember that you don't have roots in all that new soil. You should be using RO to get the ppms down in your water before adding back your biobizz.

 

[OrganicFarmer]

Sound's like you need to feed them plain water until they start to yellow just a bit. Which will probably be around harvest! If you don't want to go with RO then just use your tap water. PH to 6.5 and you're good to go. Water them only when they are light when you pick them up. You're giving them too much love... Calm down, be patient, and watch them grow.

 

[OrganicFarmer]

Also get a multimeter. You don't know your ph/ppm of your water. That can tell you more than we can.

 

[ericsson]

Hello guys,

Thanks for all the comments, I haven't been on IC mag for a while. The round with affected plants has turned out rather miserable, as after 5 weeks of veg I ended up with around 5.5oz. On top of the plant having problems, due to a fuck-up they ran most of the whole flower phase on MH instead of HPS (that last 15 days), so that's proper shizzz.

Anyway, I'm getting ready for the next round, I have 5 clones of the CSS and one Durban Poison growing from seed. All of the CSS clones are showing signs of a grow issue - I believe it's either a deficiency or lock-out. The Durban Poison seems to be unaffected..

The clones are a good few weeks old (they started normal, not-mutated growth) in 1.5gal pots (soon getting transplanted to 4gal) and about 1.5ft tall. Fist they were growing under 4x 20W CFL's, the last two weeks or so it's a 150W MH. All seem to have the same problem, it's clearly worse than in the first round shown above.

I'm still using tap water left to stand for at least 24-48h and the full BioBizz range (at this time it's Fix Mix, Bio Grow and Bio Heaven) and natural worm casting "juice" every other watering. I've also got a PH meter and water them with 6.2-6.5 PH water.

RH is between 50-60%, temps 17*C(night) to 24*C(day).
Apart from that I spray the plants with either just balanced water or do a gentle foliar-feed with 1ml/L of the Fix Mix (twice per week). From what I've been looking at/reading about symptoms, this look a bit like either a manganese or zinc def, but as this is getting stronger everyday I don't really have time to experiment - therefore if someone would care to take a look a give some advice, it would be great!

Below are a few pictures showing what it looks like as of yesterday:

Any ideas / suggestions or instructions - mayday, mayday!

Many thanks,
e.

 

[ericsson]

And a few more (one larger leaf started showing some slight browning as well):

Thx again!

 

[Granger2]

First, spend $10 on a soil probe moisture meter. Sticking your finger in the soil isn't very precise. Many times it may be dry on the surface and may be very wet down lower. Since you are having problems, you need to know the pH of your water, and your nute mix. Mix up your nutes, then pH it.

How much perlite is in your mix? %? What brand of coco did you use, and was it flushed before you added it to the mix? You added Epsom to the original mix, right? I wouldn't do that because it is so soluble that first you get crap load, then after not very many waterings, nothing. But rather than Epsom, I'd get some Earth Juice Microblast. It's a micro complex. It'll have everything but Ca covered. I'd lay off the BioBizz for a couple of feedings, and just use Liq Seaweed [Algamic is good, also Gen Organic's. Get a green one] and Microblast. I'd first flush with pH'd water, then immediately apply the seaweed and Microblast. pH this mix. Monitor with moisture meter.

You need a root stimulator. BB's is good. You can add to the above mix.

Do you bubble your water while it's sitting out? Good practice.

Your pics are making me think S. The Microblast has sulfates.Report back. Good luck. -granger

 

[Skinny Leaf]

It is an iron deficiency. The ph is too high. I can't say I have had the best of luck correcting high ph soils. You can try a product like Medina Soil Activator. It is mainly comprised of Magnesium, Iron, and Zinc. It also contains other micronutrients in lower concentrations. It may not be suitable for organic gardening. Also, I think Ironite is from Green Light and may contain the same elements. Both products have a very low ph. Around 2.5-3.0.

You could also go and buy some bagged soil such as Fox Farm Ocean Forest or Roots Organic and transplant into containers that are much larger. Say 7-10 gallons. This may correct the deficiency. Knock off any loose soil from the original before transplanting. Not strip it clean, but, any loose soil in the original one gallon container root ball.

If I was having this problem, which I have, I would trash the plants and soil used and unused. Then start over with fresh bagged soil and clones or seeds. It just takes too long to correct this problem.

 

[ericsson]

First, spend $10 on a soil probe moisture meter. Sticking your finger in the soil isn't very precise. Many times it may be dry on the surface and may be very wet down lower. Since you are having problems, you need to know the pH of your water, and your nute mix. Mix up your nutes, then pH it.

How much perlite is in your mix? %? What brand of coco did you use, and was it flushed before you added it to the mix? You added Epsom to the original mix, right? I wouldn't do that because it is so soluble that first you get crap load, then after not very many waterings, nothing. But rather than Epsom, I'd get some Earth Juice Microblast. It's a micro complex. It'll have everything but Ca covered. I'd lay off the BioBizz for a couple of feedings, and just use Liq Seaweed [Algamic is good, also Gen Organic's. Get a green one] and Microblast. I'd first flush with pH'd water, then immediately apply the seaweed and Microblast. pH this mix. Monitor with moisture meter.

You need a root stimulator. BB's is good. You can add to the above mix.

Do you bubble your water while it's sitting out? Good practice.

Your pics are making me think S. The Microblast has sulfates.Report back. Good luck. -granger

Thanks for popping-in G!
I do have a electronic soil PH/moisture level meter and tend to used it mainly to check the soil PH (although I have a feeling it's not really precised, fluctuating between PH 6-6.5 (that in theory should be good). I also use the "pot lifting method" and in anything the plants would be underwatered vs overwatered - as I feed them when either light and close to dry (not drooping, though it did happen once that one of the CSS clones had clearly droopy lower leafs).

I do PH balance the water after nutes are added and as mentioned, I set it between PH 6.2-6.5 (unless my PH meter is off - I will calibrate it using PH setting powder+water).

Regarding perlite, I'd say it's around 15-20% of the soil mix. As for coco, there's no big names to choose from where I am, I purchased pressed coco fibers from gardening market and it got proper flushed and drained a good few times.
There's no such thing as Earth Juice Microblase available in my country (Poland), so I'll need to find something to replace it with (what should I be looking for specifically?). I did use the BB Bio Roots stimulator for the first few weeks (and planned to start using it again after transplanting them to the 4gal containers, even though the nutrient schedule suggests to use it only in the first week or two of veg).
I have BB Alg-A-Mic (this on the other hand is scheduled for use during flowering) and will give it a go following your tip.
Haven't tried with bubbling the water, would a simple aquarium air-stone + pump be enough?

Since at least one def. is obvious, for how long would you cut-off using the BB range (except for Alg-A-Mic)? Also, knowing that I can't get a hold of Microblast, what would you suggest adding to try supplementing the sulph deficiency??
I'll get down to giving them a proper flush with just PH balanced water right now. Since Skinny Leaf mentioned my PH may be too high, I'll balance to water to PH 6.0 hoping it will help in any way..

It is an iron deficiency. The ph is too high. I can't say I have had the best of luck correcting high ph soils. You can try a product like Medina Soil Activator. It is mainly comprised of Magnesium, Iron, and Zinc. It also contains other micronutrients in lower concentrations. It may not be suitable for organic gardening. Also, I think Ironite is from Green Light and may contain the same elements. Both products have a very low ph. Around 2.5-3.0.

You could also go and buy some bagged soil such as Fox Farm Ocean Forest or Roots Organic and transplant into containers that are much larger. Say 7-10 gallons. This may correct the deficiency. Knock off any loose soil from the original before transplanting. Not strip it clean, but, any loose soil in the original one gallon container root ball.

If I was having this problem, which I have, I would trash the plants and soil used and unused. Then start over with fresh bagged soil and clones or seeds. It just takes too long to correct this problem.

Thank you for your input Skinny, appreciated

The above mentioned electric PH/moisture level meter show's around 6.5 - but I'm not sure it can be trusted, as it isn't really stable and easily jumps by 0.5 without any problem.
What your saying is it will be very difficult to get the PH of the soil down and save the plants?

I'll have to look for something available in my part of the globe, at this point I'm not that worried for it to be organic suitable - I'd like to try saving the plants.. so what I'm looking to add into the soil will be Iron, Zinc - and perhaps Sulphur that Granger has mentioned?

Since you mentioned my PH is too high, would you try flushing with water PH'ed @ 6 or 5.5?

Not sure if I'll be able to get 6pcs of 7-10gal pots into my tent, but I think I'll try with the biggest possible. I mixed 2 different types of bag soil for this soil mix (using the rather higher ranged available) and added some extra stuff info it - can't understand why would there be some def's right from the start..?

I also have mixed feeling as for trashing the plants - I've struggled a bit to get the clones rooted, then they've been mutating for a while and after that I spent another few weeks on providing them with light/electricity + they are of pretty decent size now - do you really think I'll be better of just throwing them away instead of trying to save them?

Thanks again to you both, at this point I'm not sure what to do but somehow I don't want to let them go (although if it's pretty much hopeless at this point, I don't want to waist more time in a useless rescue attempt..).

Take care,
e.

 

[OrganicFarmer]

I think you're over feeding. Take one plant and feed with tap only. Or you can try something like floraclean. I'm not sure if that's how you spell it.

 

[Lyfespan]

ph is too high and locking the plant out, you are having mobility issues. way too much calmag is raising your ph after you water.

dark green blue black leaves tell too much mag, problems in the new and old growth

1 foot tall plants in 4 gallons leads me to believe that too much water not being used fast enough is raising the ph of already high ph water to begin with

by the way if you want to test the issue just water those plants a few more times with corrected ph water and the same calmag level and your leaves will burn like they are rusting at the interviens lol

 

[Granger2]

I would not trash the crop. Take them to harvest and see what you can learn. You had trouble with the last crop, trouble with this crop, and you'll be well on your way to trouble with the next crop if you don't get this worked out. Besides, look how much time you'll lose.

You can't go online and find Microblast somewhere in the EU? You need a micro complex, preferably without N, preferably chelated. You need sulfates. Microblast is sulfates of asst trace minerals chelated with Citric Acid. No N.

You are overfeeding. You've got blood, bone, and fish. You're following the BB chart. Again, stop with the N feedings.

If you change soil next crop. Drop the coco, blood, bone, fish. Don't mix Epsom into the soil. Just use the BB and supplement with Microblast if needed. Good luck. -granger

 

[Granger2]

http://www.hydro-organics.com/site/where-to-buy/u-s-territory-international/

Available in UK and Czech Rep [Czechia]. Also on Amazon.

Check out other lines like Roots Organic, GH, H&G, etc. -granger

 

[ericsson]

I think you're over feeding. Take one plant and feed with tap only. Or you can try something like floraclean. I'm not sure if that's how you spell it.

Since at this point pretty much all plants are affected, I think I'll stay on tap-water-only, perhaps with a small dose of the Alg-A-Mic that Granger mentioned.
Regarding overfeeding, in a soil-mix such as mine should I be using let's say half-dose of the BioBuzz range, or I shouldn't be using it at all until the plants don't start showing some deficiencies?
Cheers for bumping in!

ph is too high and locking the plant out, you are having mobility issues. way too much calmag is raising your ph after you water.

dark green blue black leaves tell too much mag, problems in the new and old growth

1 foot tall plants in 4 gallons leads me to believe that too much water not being used fast enough is raising the ph of already high ph water to begin with

by the way if you want to test the issue just water those plants a few more times with corrected ph water and the same calmag level and your leaves will burn like they are rusting at the interviens lol

Hello Lyfespan! I believe you're right with a possible PH lock-out, as until lately (the last 3-4weeks) I didn't have a PH meter and they were getting watered with PH 7.5 tap water - but was hoping that further feeding them with water balanced @ PH 6.2-6.5 could set things straight..
Regarding too much calmag, should flushing help (I've done it yesterday, every plant got flushed with 4-4l of water balanced at PH 5.8) or is there anything else I can do to quicker bring aid to the ladies?

They are still in 1.5gal pots (the 4gal in the title was regarding the first round of CSS), after this flush I'll plant them into 4gal using new medium. As I mentioned, if anything they were getting slightly underfed, as I'm using the "pot-lifting" method and when not sure, also a moisture-level meter that can stick nearly all the way down to the bottom of these 1.5gal pots.

Not sure I got the part with watering using the same calmag level, as I haven't been adding anything apart from what has been mentioned above in the soil mix + BioBizz Fish Mix (swapped with Bio Grow every other feeding), Bio Roots and Bio Heaven.
Thanks for your two cents, I'll try looking into what can be done regarding the build-up of calmag.

I would not trash the crop. Take them to harvest and see what you can learn. You had trouble with the last crop, trouble with this crop, and you'll be well on your way to trouble with the next crop if you don't get this worked out. Besides, look how much time you'll lose.

You can't go online and find Microblast somewhere in the EU? You need a micro complex, preferably without N, preferably chelated. You need sulfates. Microblast is sulfates of asst trace minerals chelated with Citric Acid. No N.

You are overfeeding. You've got blood, bone, and fish. You're following the BB chart. Again, stop with the N feedings.

If you change soil next crop. Drop the coco, blood, bone, fish. Don't mix Epsom into the soil. Just use the BB and supplement with Microblast if needed. Good luck. -granger

Welcome back G., seems that I'm a lost cause here - second round, second time something is screwing up..
Thats a good point you made with trying to get these straight and (hopefully) gain some useful knowledge out of this disaster.
As for Microblast, I doubt any place in the UK will care to make an international shipment, might give the Czech Republic a try, thanks. In the meantime I'll have to stick the the Alg-A-Mic.

I'll prepare fresh soil for the 4gal transplant and follow your tips, but anyway may I ask why do you recommend to drop the coco? Many people write great things about adding coco to soil, even at a 50:50 ratio, hence my question. After transplanting into fresh soil (no perlite, no hydroton - nothing, strictly dirt only?) for how long should I used water only / water with Alg-A-Mic before reaching for anything form BioBizz &/or Microblast (if I can get it imported)?

Many thanks to @ll once more - , let's see what happens next..

Peace out!
e.