Tea Article

[spurr]

I grown shrooms before so im familiar with the trich (which is the gray fuzzy type in the far left pic) it will turn green when its at the end of its growth but the right pic is bacterial growth which was given Tarantula (57 types of beneficial bacteria).

Im just saying..

Trichoderma isn't gray or fuzzy, it's green and not fuzzy. Molds (such as cobweb) can be white or gray, etc., and they are often fuzzy.

Trich turns green right away, before that it's most often white, and it sporulates fast. Trich will be green before it is noticeable; the fuzzy fungi in your pic is absolutely not trichoderma. The reason you are (probably) growing something you didn't inoculate (ex. mold, and trichoderma in the bacteria tray) is due to the millions of mold and trichoderma spores that are the air all the time.

When trying to culture fungi, esp. trich, it's good to limit fresh air. You can tell what is trich fast by simply covering the tray with tin foil after the media has been moistened. Then just wait a week and look, if you see green spots/mats (often little bumps) you have trichoderma. I can post pics of trich I have cultured on purpose and not on purpose if you wanna see what trich looks like when it's going strong.

I find it kind of lame that companies sell trichoderma when most anyone can super simply cultivate it in like 3-4 days at home. Then simply mix it into a slurry and water the media. Done and done.

I agree with CTguy, if you want to be sure of what is going on you should sterilize your media in a container with a filter that blocks spores and microbes (0.2 micron or smaller holes) like a filter patch bag or other method (there are simpler methods than filter patch bags). Then use a glove box when inoculating the media to keep it out contamination. Then just allow the microbes to grow inside the container a while. That way you will have much less of chance of getting molds and other contamination to your experiments. However, even doing that doesn't guarantee sterility, nor that the only microbes growing are those you added...so making a few tests would be good.

Using a laminar flow hood is better than a glove box but they are not cheap.

I really have no dog in this fight, just pointing a few issues. I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish but it's cool your experimenting. I'm just tying to help ya, no harm intended. good luck.

 

[spurr]

Tactical,

I know that in our compost bins when I add baby oatmeal or alfalfa meal, I'll get a white/gray fuzzy growth in a day or so. I couldn't tell you the exact species, but I've found it to be a benign mold that I just mix back into the pile. Not saying this is the same as what you have, but just my personal experience.

FWIW, the next time you see the mold you could pour a little (diluted) hydrogen peroxide on it. If it kind of melts and fizzles away then it could be cobweb mold, a very common type of mold. Many species of higher fungi perfecti are not greatly damaged when hydrogen peroxide (diluted) is in contact with mycelia; some fungi can break it down pretty well.

If you want to be completely scientific about it, I'd think you'd want to start with a sterile media and inoculate with a product that is only ecto. Does cannabis even have an ecto relationship? I thought it was strictly endo?

I agree. And as to cannabis being symbiont with ecto I'm pretty sure it isn't. I have yet to find any info showing an association, but it could happen.

I would go for the endo/ecto mix because I don't know of any commercial ecto only mixes beside possibly from DieHard. And I would inoculate sterile media in a filter patch bag inside a glove box or in front of a laminar flow hood. However, a likely potential problem would be contamination at the factory from air born fungi spores, bacteria, etc...

The best way to go about this would probably be to germinate the spores on anti-bacterial agar, isolate the young mycelia/hyphae away into new agar dishes, then isolate away a second time, and finally check it under a scope to make sure it's only one type of fungi. The endo-spores would possibly germinate but not grow well (or at all), the ecto-spores should germinate well and grow well (as long as it's not obligate symbiont).

Once one knows they have a pure culture inoculating the sterile media would be the next step.

Did you know that you can get essentially a pirahna equivalent from Mycorrhizal Applications for much less $, as they just formulate that for AN, who slaps a fancy label on it and jacks up the price?

That and Mycorhizal applications have better quality control than Advanced Nutrients.

Quality control is a key factor in the efficacy of myorrhizal fungi products. I spoke with Dr. Douds after he tested many commerical AM fungi products, IIRC including a mix that sourced spores from Dr. Mike (of Mycorrhizal Applications). Dr. Douds found very low success rate with commercial freeze dried spores; IIRC including the product the came from Dr. Mike. He and I talked about it and I suggested the co-inoculation with trichoderma so common in many commercial 'kitchen sink' AM fungi products could also be to blame for low success rates. Dr. Douds didn't have an opinion on my suggestion, but he thought it was a valid point. Dr. Douds is a well known AM fungi specialist and researcher.

What you have at the end may contain a lot of beneficial biology anyway, even if it's not strictly what you thought it was (though it may be, I can't really comment to this regard).

Yea I agree.

 

[vonforne]

This s something I was working on in 2007. Made from old coffee, oatmeal and coffee filters plus water. It was ugly but fun.

added to the surface of the medium.

the blue in this picture showed late than the white. It was a closed airtight container. No filtering though.

bio-film in some tea shots......

 

[jaykush]

loos like some sort of mold to me, this is what you want to see with fungi. threads not fuzz.

lol V that turd bucket shot again

 

[spurr]

Nice pic Jay, great example!

 

[Microbeman]

I agree! Jay well done! So many photos show the fuzzy wuzzy which ain't usually what we are looking for.

 

[jaykush]

here is a better example imo, at least for most people. and those are not spider webs lol.

 

[jaykush]

one more kind, notice how this one is forming a soil aggregate, key so why fungi make loose aerated soil that plants LOVE.

and just so everyone knows, there was a mushroom connected to all of these fungal threads. different species of course though.

 

[spurr]

Jay, the last two posts don't show pics for me. You uploaded your pics to ICmag?

 

[jaykush]

how about now?

 

[Tactical Farmer]

Thanks for the input guys - Its nearly impossible to tell what that fuzzy stuff is for sure, it fades away in less than a week as the other species take over after that point.

There are numerous types of trich floating around & numerous types in the AN product I use & a $50 container will last me 5 years using it my way but thanks for the product info.

One thing that tells me the Ecto experiment was a success was those white wavy caps forming in my tea that I showed in that pic, (how else could that be ?)

I realize that Endo myco bonds with our roots but its not able to be multiplied like Ecto myco.

Who really knows for sure Ecto doesn't do the same thing with mj at this point of research ?
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Ectomycorrhizas, or EcM, are typically formed between the roots of around 10% of plant families, mostly woody plants including the birch, dipterocarp, eucalyptus, oak, pine, and rose families and fungi belonging to the Basidiomycota, Ascomycota, and Zygomycota. Ectomycorrhizas consist of a hyphal sheath, or mantle, covering the root tip and a hartig net of hyphae surrounding the plant cells within the root cortex.In some cases the hyphae may also penetrate the plant cells, in which case the mycorrhiza is called an ectendomycorrhiza. Outside the root, the fungal mycelium forms an extensive network within the soil and leaf litter. Nutrients can be shown to move between different plants through the fungal network (sometimes called the wood wide web). Carbon has been shown to move from birch trees into fir trees thereby promoting succession in ecosystems.

Endomycorrhiza arbuscular mycorrhiza (plural mycorrhizae or mycorrhizas) is a type of mycorrhiza in which the fungus penetrates the cortical cells of the roots of a vascular plant.my

Arbuscular mycorrhizae (AMs) are characterized by the formation of unique structures such as arbuscules and vesicles by fungi of the phylum Glomeromycota (AM fungi). AM fungi help plants to capture nutrients such as phosphorus and micronutrients from the soil. It is believed that the development of the arbuscular mycorrhizal symbiosis played a crucial role in the initial colonisation of land by plants and in the evolution of the vascular plants.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

One with mushroom growing experience will be familiar with liquid culture.

Injecting the mushroom spores in a jar with sugar water to multiply & take the spores to the next stage of growth.

Ecto (Mushroom) spores grow like crazy in bubbled sugar water thats for sure.

Its been quite a few years ago so my terms are rusty but im just taking those basic ideas to multiply my spore products & take them to the next stage of growth.

Minus all the sterilization of course.

Your right - that would be the proper way to run the tests but thats alot of work & im not that bored ya know..

Wish I had a nice clean lab as it does sound like a cool project but when I think about sterilizing EVERYTHING properly the excitement fades quickly.

These are out the box ideas but ive been practicing it for 3 years now with nothing but excellent results.

My soil is LOADED with this stuff - check my album.

Not wanting to debate - just wanted to share some info, carry on

 

[spurr]

@ Jay,

Still dont' see pics. Does anyone else see them?


@ TF:

FWIW, I'm pretty sure those ecto's from AN are not fungi prefecti. I'm not looking to debate either, nor is CTguy, Jay or MM I think, we are all just discussing the topic without care to prove a point. We are just trying to figure out what is the correct claims, no offense to you is intended.

I think it's awesome you are experimenting, I hope you don't construe the constructive observations as an attack against you or your motivation. I am stoked you are experimenting and posting. I am sorry if I (or we) come off as attacking you.

Like CTguy wrote, and I agreed with: even if what your culturing isn't what you think it is you could be culturing beneficial microbes (albeit I doubt the mold is beneficial).

How you got fungi fruit bodies in ACT is something I have some reservations about. Not only because I have doubts most (any?) fungi will fruit in water, but because going from spores or even mycelia to fruit in 2-3 days is more than uncommon. I am also not so sure ecto will grow in a liquid culture like used for P.cubensis (ex. only sugars and starches), maybe some can but I have not seen any info on that. In the pic on the last page I see pilei (mushroom caps) in soil, not ACT, are you referring to a different pic?

I agree there could be ecto that form associations with cannabis, however, thus far I have not found any info showing an association.


Here is a good list of ecto's and plant/tree associations:

"Ectomycorrhizal Fungi Associates"
http://www.hortsorb.com/Ectomycorrhizal_Fungi_Associates.asp


Here is a good list of various types of mycorrhizal fungi:

"PLANT SPECIE BY MYCORRHIZAE TYPE"
http://www.horticulturalalliance.com/Plant_Species_and_Type_of_Mycorrhizae.asp

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

@ Jay,

Still dont' see pics. Does anyone else see them?

No.

 

[spurr]

RE: Ecto's:

Also of note is that DieHard sells live ectomycorrhizal fungi! I think as hyphae, they are the only company doing so I know about:

DIEHARD™ "Ecto Drench" is formulated with live beneficial mycorrhizal fungi to inoculate the roots of seed beds or containerized plants in the nursery. It contains highly selected strains of low host specificity ectomycorrhizal fungi that will quickly colonize the roots of tree seedling.

Here is a good list from Diehard, whom I trust more than Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc. (due to my interactions with Dr. Mike's employees):

"GENERAL DISCUSSION ON MYCORRHIZAL INOCULANTS"
http://www.hortsorb.com/DIEHARD_General_Discussion_On_Mycorrhizal_Inoculants.asp

Reasons why spores alone are dangerous for an inoculant:

1. Spores degrade over time, even when dried

2. For some species, spores are the only infective propagules and when they degrade the inocula are effectively dead.

3. For many species in Glomus, hyphae from root fragments can be up to 10X more infective than spores.

4. Root fragments, when dried, are not as susceptible to
degradation as spores, especially in a formulation containing high organic matter.

5. Ergo (from 4 above), even if part of the inoculum degrades with storage, infective propagules still can be present for a longer period in a mixed inoculum formulation.

 

[MrFista]

I'm interested in the 'caps forming in tea'. to my knowledge there is only one underwater basidiomycete discovered ever. Could you flip a 'cap' over and expose the underside please.

 

[Thomkal Vwalaa]

Is this water no good?

Is this water no good?

Hey guys, amazing thread. Do I need better water to make tea? Is this water going to work with organics?

Here is the specs from the water company.

Inorganic Contaminants:
Aluminum (ppm) - none detected
Flouride (ppm) - 0.21 - Erosion of natural deposits

Disinfection By-products, Residuals, and
By-product Precursors:
Total Trihalomethanes (ppb) - 17.55 - by-product of chlorination
Haloacetic acids (ppb) - 8.2 - by-product of water disinfection
Disinfectant-Free Chlorine (CI2) Residual (ppm) - 0.6 Disinfectant to control microbes
pH (units) prior to pH adjustment - 7.7 - Average after pH adjustment: 8.25

Copper (ppm) - 0.084 - Internal corrosion of household plumbing
systems; erosion of natural deposits
Lead (ppb) - 3.6 - Internal corrosion of household plumbing
systems; erosion of natural deposits

Chloride (ppm) - 24.2 - Runoff/leaching from natural deposits
Specific Conductance (umhas/cm) - 490 - Substances that form ions when in water.
Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) - 370 - Runoff/leaching from natural deposits.
Manganese (ppb) - 9.0 - Runoff/leaching from natural deposits

Sodium (ppm) - 53 - Erosion of natural deposits
Total Hardness CaCO3(ppm) - 131 - Erosion of natural deposits
Total Alkalinity as CaCO(ppm) - 240 - Erosion of natural deposits
Calcium (ppm) - 26 - Erosion of natural deposits
Total Radon 222 (pCi/L)3 - 450 - Found in the ground throughout the U.S.

 

[spurr]

Mr.F

to my knowledge there is only one underwater basidiomycete discovered ever

That is news to me, thanks. I thought fungi could not fruit in water, what is the fungi? What I mean is mycelia floating around in water and fruiting. Is that what you are referencing? Or is your example one of mycelia colonizing a substrate underwater (like a log) and then fruited under water?

thanks bro!

 

[CT Guy]

@ Jay,

Still dont' see pics. Does anyone else see them?


@ TF:

FWIW, I'm pretty sure those ecto's from AN are not fungi prefecti. I'm not looking to debate either, nor is CTguy, Jay or MM I think, we are all just discussing the topic without care to prove a point. We are just trying to figure out what is the correct claims, no offense to you is intended.

I think it's awesome you are experimenting, I hope you don't construe the constructive observations as an attack against you or your motivation. I am stoked you are experimenting and posting. I am sorry if I (or we) come off as attacking you.

Like CTguy wrote, and I agreed with: even if what your culturing isn't what you think it is you could be culturing beneficial microbes (albeit I doubt the mold is beneficial).

I just wanted to comment on Spurrs' post and say that I think it's awesome you're posting and sharing all your experiments and info. It's how we get good topics and new information and can all learn from each other. I hope you don't take any of these comments as an attack and continue to post more of your experiments and such. Thanks!

 

[MrFista]

The fungi is in one of Stamets books, read it ages ago. Mycelium Running I think. Saw the photo read the blurby bit think it was freshwater. Like to take a deeper look myself, when I find it again...

 

[Tactical Farmer]

I kid you not, simply took a small chunk of this AN piranha compost culture below.

Added it to a bubbled tea (country mt spring water) w/ molasses & a dash of dry oatmeal.

Then 3 days later went to feed & was like WTF is that floating around in there ?

Poured it out & there they were, 3 caps.

You can still see the big one coated in micro bubbles.

The darker side is the top & the white side is the bottom "it seems" there were no gills but possibly they were not fully formed ?

Unless my cat put them in there - they formed in the tea that quickly.

Swear on my freedom

I realize it does seem to defy logic that it could form that quickly.

Have yet to see it again but I haven't tried but once since, didn't know it was out of the ordinary ?

* Its all good - thanks again for being open minded to something different. Im going to start a new round of mad scientist projects & will share any new findings.