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C
CT Guy
You could send a sample to SFI, or get a microscope, or talk MM or I into looking at it for you....
Planning on an organic grow soon.
I think I've settled on the Earth Juice line of liquid nutes. I hear it is best to brew/aerate them for 48 hours or so before you use them?
If so, do you just put the water + nutes in a bucket, and then throw in an air stone/air pump from the local fish store?
I think I've settled on the Earth Juice line of liquid nutes. I hear it is best to brew/aerate them for 48 hours or so before you use them?
If so, do you just put the water + nutes in a bucket, and then throw in an air stone/air pump from the local fish store?
C
CT Guy
Here's the bottom line on whether or not to aerate. If the product or tea in question has BIOLOGY in it (bacteria, fungi, or protozoa), then you will want to add oxygen. If it's strictly a nutrient with no beneficial microbes, then you don't need to aerate and should just apply it right after mixing.
S
schwagg
by chance, does anyone know about cedar grove compost? it comes from food scraps, yard waste, etc... i'm not sure if it's considered a good compost to use. i have my own compost pile started up but in the mean time i want to make some tea. thanks.
http://www.cedar-grove.com/
All Cedar Grove bagged products are registered by WSDA for use in growing certified organic food.
does that mean it should be good for tea? i worry about it because all the food waste that goes in the bin they collect every week. what about salts and who knows what else.
http://www.cedar-grove.com/
All Cedar Grove bagged products are registered by WSDA for use in growing certified organic food.
does that mean it should be good for tea? i worry about it because all the food waste that goes in the bin they collect every week. what about salts and who knows what else.
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C
CT Guy
schwagg,
I'm local and I can tell you they haven't got any biological testing for their products. I did take a look at it with the microscope and it was highly bacterial in the sample I looked at. So you could probably make a good bacterial tea with it. If you're near Seattle, I can get you material as well.....
I'm local and I can tell you they haven't got any biological testing for their products. I did take a look at it with the microscope and it was highly bacterial in the sample I looked at. So you could probably make a good bacterial tea with it. If you're near Seattle, I can get you material as well.....
xebeche
Member
I would guess that it has some good microbial activity. When I make my teas, I go for diversity (as I don't have a scope yet). I go to the forest and scrape a few inches down next to a large tree and look for the white stringy fungi that I can never remember the name of. I also use a bagged compost... pretty much grab as many different types as possible. The main thing I use is my sense of smell. If it smells like old growth forests just afer the rain, I assume it is good. I have noticed that the plants seem to respond well, but that could just be one of the numerous other tools I use has taken affect.
xebeche
Member
Kitty Litter
Kitty Litter
Put cat litter in the water for the teas?
Maybe after I get a scope and know what to look for.
What about the surface area of the brewing vessel raising the DO?
Kitty Litter
Put cat litter in the water for the teas?
Maybe after I get a scope and know what to look for.
What about the surface area of the brewing vessel raising the DO?
S
schwagg
CT... thanks very much.
S
schwagg
i've gotten off my rear lately and started to venture into the nearby woods. i found a huge patch of stinging nettles and some great undisturbed soil. i can throw a few leaves of the nettle in my tea right? i've ate it before but never thought plants would like it too! as for the soil, i can't wait to get a little. tons of leaves, ferns, and nettles. it should be pretty nice underneath all of it.
C
CT Guy
Search JayKush's username and "nettles" for info. I'd make a separate tea from the compost tea if this is your goal.
I do think a small amount of forest litter (provided it's a good source) could enhance your tea if you're using the Cedar Grove compost.
I do think a small amount of forest litter (provided it's a good source) could enhance your tea if you're using the Cedar Grove compost.
S
schwagg
nettles have great goodies to give right, what about poppy leaves? i notice when i thin a patch of them that they stink like hell. is there any compounds in them that could help?
RESINvention
Active member
Hello everyone, nice read in the first few pages.. My question is: It seems you ACT pros are avoiding adding manure to your compost tea for fear of breeding pathogens.. But isn't the whole theory of ACT to promote aerobic bacteria and to kill off any pathogens with oxidation?? Check this nice writeup on oxygen: http://blog.glaswater.com/articles/2/1/How-Oxygen-Kills-Pathogens/Page1.html
It seems a lot of you are very comfortable on making the claim that using ACT is specifically for increasing soil biology only..
Well I see it not only as a way to increase your soil biology but also to feed your plants/soil.. or a way to make a perfect organic soil.
You suggest Guano as being a manure and possible negative effects, but isn't worm poop manure too? From my understanding, the microbes (good and bad) are inoculated in the digestive tracts and born onto fecal matter.. which leads me to wonder how diversified the microbial life is and how it got there in the first place?
Through the addition of multiple manures from all over the world, I feel not only the microbial diversification will increase but also the overall fertility of the tea. I've noticed Microbeman and CT are trying to segregate soil microbe production and soil fertility, and that they don't belong together in the same category.. and I'm not sure why? Maybe you guys can shed some light on why you can't make an all-in-one solution to jump-start 'perfect soil remediation' (microbe and nutrient content)? ..And once proper soil balance is maintained, is there any detrimental effect to continue adding beneficial microbes to the soil via Tea? As in.. Is there really a need to separate our beneficial microbes from our feeding regime?.. because I don't really see it necessary and find the continued addition of beneficial microbes to only be a good thing.. but please do enlighten me if you know the reasons, I'm here to learn.
I basically want to make an organic feeding solution that is as perfect and harmless as possible, which will restore the soil and supply all the necessary nutrients, an all-in-one elixir. I would think the diversification of manures sourced all over the world would be an incredible start to boosting diversified and abundant microbes as well as diversified nutritional content.. How about some guano from the galopagos islands? I hear it's extremely diverse there.
If there is something wrong with using manures, how about composted manures? I would think these would be the best to use overall.
Just my thoughts, I would love to hear more insight on my thoughts from you all though.
P'ce
-Resin
C
CT Guy
Resin,
Good post. Here's a few answers (though it's still early this morning and I'm still waking up).
The whole theory of ACT is to promote aerobic microbes. However, many pathogens are facultative anaerobes, meaning they prefer low to no oxygen conditions, but can survive in aerobic conditions as well. By providing sufficient oxygen, you're allowing the aerobic microbes to outcompete them the food resources in the brew. Could they still be present at the end of the brew? Well....maybe. No way to know unless you test. Plus, most home brewers tend to not provide enough oxygen (though this seems to have gotten better in this forum as of late). If someone uses manures and doesn't provide enough oxygen, or puts in too many foods and sends the brew anaerobic, they may be feeding the very pathogens we're trying to avoid.
Does this mean that fully composted manure based compost has no place in ACT? Well, I know MM has used EWC that had manure as a primary ingredient. Of course, he also checks his dissolved oxygen levels and uses a microscope.
Yes, ACT is for increasing soil biology, but the microbes do have some nutrients "locked up" inside them. This in turn becomes available through the nutrient cycling process or microbial loop. I feel like the term "nutrient" falls short in this regard, as ACT does provide nutrients, but in addition it increases the efficacy of the soil (through the biology in it) at cycling the nutrients for the plant. It is not the same as putting out a chemical salt-based fertilizer or even an organic fertilizer (which is nothing more than additional microbial food).
When you put out organic fertilizer or nutrients, you're feeding your existing soil biology. When you put out ACT, you're increasing the concentrations of aerobic biology in your soil and on the leaf surface of your plant.
You can add organic fertilizers/nutrients such as humates, seaweed, alfalfa, etc...to your tea after you're done brewing. Sort of like sending out the little critters with an extra meal.
I'm not against manures, I just think there's better options in many instances. If the manure is fully composted, I'd prefer to use it as a soil amendment than in a tea so that if there are any pathogens, they aren't increased by making the tea but rather can be handled by nature within the soil.
Guanos seem to work well for many growers, I'm not against them. Personally, I wouldn't choose to use them for sustainability issues, and I haven't done any testing in regards to biology they contribute to ACTs. I know they can be a good source for P.
When I put out ACT with seaweed and LC-10+7 (a chelated liquid humate), I would consider this a "perfect application" in many ways. I'm getting additional biology, putting out food sources for the microbes once they're at home on the plant, chelated minerals, plant growth hormones, etc...
I think an every other application of what I listed above in conjunction with fish hydrolysate would provide almost all the nutrients your plant would need (provided you have some N and other goodies in your soil mix).
Lastly, if you have a perfect organic soil, you can get away with not using any of these applications, and your plant should be able to thrive with just water. Haven't done it yet myself, but I know there's a few in this forum that have grown successfully in this manner. It's all about the soil!
Good post. Here's a few answers (though it's still early this morning and I'm still waking up).
The whole theory of ACT is to promote aerobic microbes. However, many pathogens are facultative anaerobes, meaning they prefer low to no oxygen conditions, but can survive in aerobic conditions as well. By providing sufficient oxygen, you're allowing the aerobic microbes to outcompete them the food resources in the brew. Could they still be present at the end of the brew? Well....maybe. No way to know unless you test. Plus, most home brewers tend to not provide enough oxygen (though this seems to have gotten better in this forum as of late). If someone uses manures and doesn't provide enough oxygen, or puts in too many foods and sends the brew anaerobic, they may be feeding the very pathogens we're trying to avoid.
Does this mean that fully composted manure based compost has no place in ACT? Well, I know MM has used EWC that had manure as a primary ingredient. Of course, he also checks his dissolved oxygen levels and uses a microscope.
Yes, ACT is for increasing soil biology, but the microbes do have some nutrients "locked up" inside them. This in turn becomes available through the nutrient cycling process or microbial loop. I feel like the term "nutrient" falls short in this regard, as ACT does provide nutrients, but in addition it increases the efficacy of the soil (through the biology in it) at cycling the nutrients for the plant. It is not the same as putting out a chemical salt-based fertilizer or even an organic fertilizer (which is nothing more than additional microbial food).
When you put out organic fertilizer or nutrients, you're feeding your existing soil biology. When you put out ACT, you're increasing the concentrations of aerobic biology in your soil and on the leaf surface of your plant.
You can add organic fertilizers/nutrients such as humates, seaweed, alfalfa, etc...to your tea after you're done brewing. Sort of like sending out the little critters with an extra meal.
I'm not against manures, I just think there's better options in many instances. If the manure is fully composted, I'd prefer to use it as a soil amendment than in a tea so that if there are any pathogens, they aren't increased by making the tea but rather can be handled by nature within the soil.
Guanos seem to work well for many growers, I'm not against them. Personally, I wouldn't choose to use them for sustainability issues, and I haven't done any testing in regards to biology they contribute to ACTs. I know they can be a good source for P.
When I put out ACT with seaweed and LC-10+7 (a chelated liquid humate), I would consider this a "perfect application" in many ways. I'm getting additional biology, putting out food sources for the microbes once they're at home on the plant, chelated minerals, plant growth hormones, etc...
I think an every other application of what I listed above in conjunction with fish hydrolysate would provide almost all the nutrients your plant would need (provided you have some N and other goodies in your soil mix).
Lastly, if you have a perfect organic soil, you can get away with not using any of these applications, and your plant should be able to thrive with just water. Haven't done it yet myself, but I know there's a few in this forum that have grown successfully in this manner. It's all about the soil!
RESINvention
Active member
Hey CT, thanks for getting back to me.
I'm picturing an ideal aerated compost tea model, being you have a large trashcan (45 gal but brew 20 gal) and oxygenate this with a commercial air pump and perhaps suspended above another trashcan to drain onto mineral rocks and oxygenate more (like a waterfall does in nature) with the applications of sunlight. Proportions and frequencies would have to be worked out, but say in your raw materials pile to add to your existing pile of compost, seaweed and humic acid, add:
Sea kelp / fresh seaweed - 60 trace elements, plant growth hormone, microbe food
Stabalized Fish hydrolysate - fungal/microbe/plant food
Alaskan Humus - humic acid, fulvic acid, ulmic acid and trace elements.
Fish oil - beneficial fungi
Corn meal - natural fungicide and supplies food for beneficial fungi
Cotton Seed Meal - fungi growth
Rotten Fruit(questionable) / Green weeds - adds bacteria & nutrients
Garden Soil - adds existing life
Apple cider vinegar - adds 30 trace minerals, acts as an acid
Epsom Salt - mg & sulfur
Vermicompost, cow/horse/chicken/bat/critter manure - microbes, plant food.
Vegetable oil - prevent foaming
Alfalfa Pellets - organic food
20 gallons of spring water - non chlorinated
Mycorrhizal fungi inoculum - (added at transplant time)
Anything else I should add? I figure the diversification of food sources and amendments would supplement more variety of life than a few ingredients alone.
I figure if you oxygenate the water before throwing your compost/raw material list in, it will greatly increase chances of beneficial production and suppression of detrimental microbes. So run the 20 gallons first until the proper dissolved oxygen content is achieved. Then add in materials and let the mixing begin, and after mixing is finished, apply immediately.
What would the implications of this design bring?
I'm picturing an ideal aerated compost tea model, being you have a large trashcan (45 gal but brew 20 gal) and oxygenate this with a commercial air pump and perhaps suspended above another trashcan to drain onto mineral rocks and oxygenate more (like a waterfall does in nature) with the applications of sunlight. Proportions and frequencies would have to be worked out, but say in your raw materials pile to add to your existing pile of compost, seaweed and humic acid, add:
Sea kelp / fresh seaweed - 60 trace elements, plant growth hormone, microbe food
Stabalized Fish hydrolysate - fungal/microbe/plant food
Alaskan Humus - humic acid, fulvic acid, ulmic acid and trace elements.
Fish oil - beneficial fungi
Corn meal - natural fungicide and supplies food for beneficial fungi
Cotton Seed Meal - fungi growth
Rotten Fruit(questionable) / Green weeds - adds bacteria & nutrients
Garden Soil - adds existing life
Apple cider vinegar - adds 30 trace minerals, acts as an acid
Epsom Salt - mg & sulfur
Vermicompost, cow/horse/chicken/bat/critter manure - microbes, plant food.
Vegetable oil - prevent foaming
Alfalfa Pellets - organic food
20 gallons of spring water - non chlorinated
Mycorrhizal fungi inoculum - (added at transplant time)
Anything else I should add? I figure the diversification of food sources and amendments would supplement more variety of life than a few ingredients alone.
I figure if you oxygenate the water before throwing your compost/raw material list in, it will greatly increase chances of beneficial production and suppression of detrimental microbes. So run the 20 gallons first until the proper dissolved oxygen content is achieved. Then add in materials and let the mixing begin, and after mixing is finished, apply immediately.
What would the implications of this design bring?
I am a little confused by your presentation, however if this helps; Complimentary to what CT Guy has said, ACT with a functioning microbial nutrient cycling consortia will (or should) provide nutrients directly to the roots of the plants via the predation of bacteria and archaea by protozoa which release ionic form (plant available) nutrients. Additionally there are small amounts of soluble nutrients in ACT as well as microbial foods and minerals for continuing use.
Really the soil microbial population and soil fertility are one and the same outside of the fact that 'it' is dependent on ongoing inputs of organic matter.
You may gain some further insight from Elaine Ingham excerpts that I've just posted in the pH discussion thread.
Worm poo is different from other manures in that it is humus like, in similar construct to finished thermophilic compost. I've heard it argued that bat guano is also of similar consistency because it is further digested by beetles(?) I've not had the opportunity to explore this so I am ignorant but interested.
My thoughts are; why complicate matters? why not use what is easy to make, cheap to get or grow and close at hand?
With your brewer/extractor design are you hypothesizing simply mixing and applying or giving time for a consortia to develop? I incorporate the 'waterfall effect' in my brewer.
RESINvention
Active member
Hey Microbeman, thanks for writing back, I'll definitely check out the PH section.
I am trying to formulate the most efficient and effective "perfect soil" remediation solution while gaining collaborative input from experienced members.
I am theorizing a design which includes time for beneficial consortia to develop while mixing optimal fertility and shortly after applying this solution for overall effectiveness.. It's in it's mental development stages, and I'm considering working with some form of aquaponics as well to incorporate an even more diverse tea which will support a large spectrum of life.
I just checked your brewer out, that's pretty clever that you use air to pump water. I was trying to think of a way to get around using a water/air pump and thought about using a Sump Pump, which can pump 2000-3000 GPH or 33-50 GPM and handle small debris. Let me know if I got this right, but the whole reason of using air induction is to avoid destroying fine strands of fungi? If that is correct, it is my belief that the shredding of these fungal tissues would actually be beneficial as it would only create more opportunities for the fungi to colonize a substrate. I also see you use PVC piping in your design, which may cause off-gassing and actually be detrimental to the health of organisms. Have you thought of a way around this, or do you see it as a problem? This is taken from wikipedia:
"Many vinyl products contain additional chemicals to change the chemical consistency of the product. Some of these additional chemicals called additives can leach out of vinyl products. Plasticizers that must be added to make PVC flexible have been additives of particular concern.
... Phthalates mimic human hormones and also affect various life forms including fish and invertebrates adversely."
Life is very complicated and complex and I feel the answer is closer to a more diversified food source/microbial life/macro/micro element spectrum, than a 3-4 input solution. I feel the more additives in the proper proportions, the more effective the tea will be at restoring proper soil balance.
I'm not trying to sound rude, but I'm just trying to come up with the best system that can make the best product, which I am not trying to sell to anyone for $$$ so my opinion remains at most unbiased. Sometimes when people have their "baby" they tend to foster it and not look outside the box to others to raise it. I am trying to have a community "baby" and pull knowledge for raising this child/project from all the good parents in the world.. That's where I'm coming from and this is what I'm trying to do I hope that clears some things up? Looking forward to more discussion..
-Resin
I am trying to formulate the most efficient and effective "perfect soil" remediation solution while gaining collaborative input from experienced members.
I am theorizing a design which includes time for beneficial consortia to develop while mixing optimal fertility and shortly after applying this solution for overall effectiveness.. It's in it's mental development stages, and I'm considering working with some form of aquaponics as well to incorporate an even more diverse tea which will support a large spectrum of life.
I just checked your brewer out, that's pretty clever that you use air to pump water. I was trying to think of a way to get around using a water/air pump and thought about using a Sump Pump, which can pump 2000-3000 GPH or 33-50 GPM and handle small debris. Let me know if I got this right, but the whole reason of using air induction is to avoid destroying fine strands of fungi? If that is correct, it is my belief that the shredding of these fungal tissues would actually be beneficial as it would only create more opportunities for the fungi to colonize a substrate. I also see you use PVC piping in your design, which may cause off-gassing and actually be detrimental to the health of organisms. Have you thought of a way around this, or do you see it as a problem? This is taken from wikipedia:
"Many vinyl products contain additional chemicals to change the chemical consistency of the product. Some of these additional chemicals called additives can leach out of vinyl products. Plasticizers that must be added to make PVC flexible have been additives of particular concern.
... Phthalates mimic human hormones and also affect various life forms including fish and invertebrates adversely."
Life is very complicated and complex and I feel the answer is closer to a more diversified food source/microbial life/macro/micro element spectrum, than a 3-4 input solution. I feel the more additives in the proper proportions, the more effective the tea will be at restoring proper soil balance.
I'm not trying to sound rude, but I'm just trying to come up with the best system that can make the best product, which I am not trying to sell to anyone for $$$ so my opinion remains at most unbiased. Sometimes when people have their "baby" they tend to foster it and not look outside the box to others to raise it. I am trying to have a community "baby" and pull knowledge for raising this child/project from all the good parents in the world.. That's where I'm coming from and this is what I'm trying to do
I hope that clears some things up? Looking forward to more discussion..-Resin
Who has said anything about 3 to 4 inputs? It is the base compost/vermicompost which counts and using varied geographically 'local' inputs into the compost or worm pile is what I advocate.
I do not know of a current material besides PVC which is entirely safe and at the same time affordable. Most people drink water these days which is piped by PVC. Is this worse than copper? iron? Barrels and garbage pails are also made from PVC or a similar plastic as are most growing containers.
It is your hypothesis I was confused by. You have not expressed an understanding of nutrient exchange within your expressions of soil fertility.
One thing you might look at is that forests and grasslands, uneffected by humans do not derive organic matter from a wide geographic region.
The main reason for using air is to supersaturate dissolved oxygen.
I do not know of a current material besides PVC which is entirely safe and at the same time affordable. Most people drink water these days which is piped by PVC. Is this worse than copper? iron? Barrels and garbage pails are also made from PVC or a similar plastic as are most growing containers.
It is your hypothesis I was confused by. You have not expressed an understanding of nutrient exchange within your expressions of soil fertility.
One thing you might look at is that forests and grasslands, uneffected by humans do not derive organic matter from a wide geographic region.
The main reason for using air is to supersaturate dissolved oxygen.
heya guys.
so if soil has been determined to be highly bacterial, yet containing a good number of what appear to be hyphae, how does one proceed?
protozoa soup? grass clippings?
so if soil has been determined to be highly bacterial, yet containing a good number of what appear to be hyphae, how does one proceed?
protozoa soup? grass clippings?
That may depend if you are of the school which believes that the fungi (most likely imperfecti) which one is growing in ACT is similar in type and function to that observed in the soil. If I observed soil which exhibited plenty of bacteria and active fungal hypae without any culture testing, my first thought would be that protozoa were in cyst form at the moment for some reason. I would then run a 72 hour culture test to confirm or deny that theory. Additionally I would attempt to determine the fungal species. Besides those auxillary efforts my gut would be to (1) utilize microbially balanced ACT as usual or (2) apply (vermi)compost or other organic matter or (3) do nothing at all if I ascertain that there is sufficient organic matter in place.
