TAG - Landing (Resource for True Aero Growing)

[guineapig]

oh JAT your roots are the bomb.....will they get more pom-pommy?.....you know JAT these kinds of root pictures make me think,

"When True Aero Growing produces fantastically elaborate an massive clusters of roots, is it possible that the size of some roots will impede other roots from receiving nutrients and thus limit growth? Would a gentle breeze in the root chamber accompanied by the misting jets of 50 micron (or so) particle-streams help to spread the nutrient particles within the interior of those fabulous root clusters? Or are your roots quite delicate and any disturbance at all however gentle would probably be a bad idea......"


things that make you go hmmmmm......i apologize if this question offends your roots.....i mean no harm i just seek higher planes of energy.....-gp out

 

[JustATry]

gp - no offense taken. Honestly, I don't think a fan inside the chamber would do much in may case. Couple of reason; the size of my chamber, the amount of foggers, and the high PSI application.

The spacing on the plants is 9" on center, so I don't think they are going to impede each other. The fog coverage is insane! Everything literally gets drenched in a couple of seconds. I have actually had to cut my misting time back to 15 seconds just so they weren't saturated. They seem to be loving it - as you can tell from the lateral growth.

There is even coverage right now, but we will have to see once I get those huge roots. Maybe they outer roots will totally block the inside roots... ...I don't know. This is grow number one so I am still learning.

I already have a couple of tweaks I would do before the next grow starts. I would use a combination of the EXL and Toro foggers. With this combo you can acutally root cuttings with a 15 sec/3 min fog in 5-6 days. No more need for cloners! I would put a ball-valve on the feed lines going to each table so I could shut off each table independently. And... ...well that's about it right now. Everything else I am happy with.

 

[Guest]

They'll continue to bush out..you wont see hair until you see pistils..they go hand in hand...but once you have budset you'll see the hair come down as she gets all fat eating for a zillion.
When my buds are just coated with Trichomes my roots are as well of a sort...



GP - From what I've experienced, I have never had root rot EVER! Nor have I ever been able to find these 'congested' roots. Here are a few interesting pictures to demonstrate on a FAcloner. You could actually root directly in your TAG pod. So after constant digging I found it unneccessary to prune roots or use net pots or do anything...I've not found a single shred of evidence that, with the correct amount of aerospace rootzone, you need do nothing but keep it cool and dark.





Now this is a fun one, she got a little jammed up in the pool noodle and still found a way to stay healthy and flourish...




Something else I'd like to uncover is the structure of these Coli. I would like to constantly produce the sort of 3-5 thick ass colas I did with the Widows. However I'm not sure which is the best way to achieve this.

From what I've experienced the best method is to trim everything below the first branch that you use for a cola, then all branches except that one to a total of 3 to 5 and allow the plant to only propagate those branches.

Questions are... When to trim? When to flower? How large to veg? That sort of thing...If anyone has any advice, please feel free to share and post pictures.

JAT - I concur, that mom looks like a HOG to me too, it is very thick in the stalks and in a 'HOG' Corner..so probably is...we'll see.

Here are some aboves and belows so you can see. They are very developed by the time they get the pom poms out 'that's Prom!'.

This is the end of the 4th Week of Flowering the Widows...now you can see the size of the pom poms...





JAT You can see the stalk here, with those PVC Collars they wont slip through. They almost fill the 1.5" holes as it is..

 

[Guest]

These Bubble Apples grew off these roots, which is a good example of the hairy mess. See how the 'apples' aren't a huge or developed as the Widow's buds. The Pom Poms are smaller and just developing, as these had days of straight light and then days without water as I had all sorts of pump issues and nute problems and leaks for the first few weeks of the Wonder Twin grow. The Widows went in a couple weeks later...so they got a longer TAE experience, so they developed with healthier growth.

But GP - you can see, there is no real reason to cut or prune or 'air out' the roots...they are very healthy through and through. Its a good thing. :wink: A well balanced TAE will actually 'clean' your roots and rip off all the old debris and let the Nbac and AM chew it up. Like JAT got in his filter. TAE blasts all that crap off if you dry out the roots and then the little helpers go to work decomposing it and returning the elements to the plant to use..very efficient looped system.



Widows...



And the colas I'd like to grow on ever plant...lol

 

[guineapig]

take with grains of salt.....foliar feeding ramblings....

take with grains of salt.....foliar feeding ramblings....

You can foliar feed up to 2-3 times per week in veg and 2-3 times per week during the first TWO WEEKS of BLOOM. Beyond that time, it is not beneficial and can lower yields."Hello everyone, been a while since my last visit, I've been traveling, anyways lets catch up
I was in my hydro shop the other day and saw these new foliar brochure from Dutch Master, they have proven that using Penetrator at 60ml per litre is far more effective than the old 20ml usage, also for those of you who like Carbohydrates products (usually root fed) they have also proven that root feeding the carbs is almost a complete waste of money, on the other hand if you decide to foliar apply the solution you will find it is thousands of times more effective and get ready for better yields. If you haven't noticed I like to foliar spray, it is the most effective. ah shit it's 4:25 Ciao for now brothers (sisters)."

"in my opinion foliar spraying is by far the better option, for one foliar spraying does absorb more product quicker and more efficiently, make sure you are spraying on the under side of your leaves. Beneficial bacteria are also quite useful when sprayed on the leaf tissue, dont under estimate the value of spraying product on, use an bio-stimulant for extra absorbtion and chelation."

"foliar feeding anything after third week of flowering could induce MOLD."

"ADVANCE.
Dutch Master Advance is a revolutionary breakthrough in hydroponic plant nutrition.
Advance incorporates the first targeted use of Krebs Cycle metabolites in hydroponic plant nutrition. These Krebs Metabolites are designed to induce the plant into what is termed short cycling. Short cycling occurs when the correct types of Krebs metabolites are provided to the plant along with the necessary co enzymes & catalysts to help the plant complete the Krebs cycle early. However, before this can occur these specialised elements must be delivered to the exact sites needed, without them being broken down into what are termed, inactive conjugates. Before we can understand the benefits of short cycling we need to understand a little about Krebs Cycles & what they do. A Krebs cycle is the basic respiration or energy cycle of all living things & all of the hormones, auxins & signallers etc produced by a plant begin from this cycle.
What the Krebs cycle does is perform a series of complex chemical actions, each dependent on the other to complete its part of the cycle. Once this cycle is completed it immediately begins anew. The main sites for these cycles are specialised cells called Mitochondria.
What the Dutch Master R&D team have achieved is the delivery & insertion of part of the cycle into these specialised cells. This means that the plant does not have to complete that part of the cycle and so the new cycle can begin quicker than it normally would. The benefits of this are enormous as the plants then grow & develop at an accelerated rate due to the increased output of energy by the plant. Plants grown with advance show faster growth, better flower development, larger, more colourful flowers and an increase in essential oil production which is great for herbs or medicinal crops.
The two formulations, Advance Grow & Advance Flower are tailored specifically to enable maximal development & growth from the vegetative & flowering stages of your plants."

"I foliar feed as if my life depended on it. This is my regimine:

Mondays : Foltich Flower + Penetrator
Tuesdays: Fish Emulsions + Fulvic Acid + Penetrator
Wednesday: Supernova + Dark Energy + Penetrator"

"sugar in whatever form is simply a source of carbon. carbon acts as a buffer for the nutes in the root zone and is a source of energy for bacteria that assist this. plants actually expend considerable energy putting carbon into the soil to create this a better environment. good soil mix should have sufficient humates/carbon in it to buffer, but in hydro systems this is the component that is missing and is why hydro buds are lighter, but you get great roots."

"carbohydrates cannot be absorbed effectively through the root zone, they cannot penetrate the casparian layer as the molecule size is too large, to get best results from carb additives use them in a foliar manner, combine any carb solution with dutch masters penetrator ( foliar delivery agent)"

"I dont think carbohydrates have a direct effect on the plants.
They might have drastic effects on the microbes living in the root zone.
Also, clear indirect effects can often been seen. Molasses for instance is high in K, and thus contribute to the potassium content of the medium.
Plant Dr wrote
Aribinose and xylose along with glucose are excellent. The carb's give the plant sustained energy and definately provide a food source for beneficial bacteria...as mentioned."

"Folitech.
Folitech Grow & Flower are 2 unique foliar sprays designed to enhance your plants ability to support & produce larger numbers of flowers than would normally be possible. Folitech is a 2 stage product with a vegetative and a flowering formulation which are designed to be used at the appropriate stage of the plants development. The underlying technology in both the Folitech formulations is the unique Phospholipid technology developed by Dutch Masters renowned R&D team, which is headed by our Dr of Plant Physiology & Bio Chemistry.
These unique, organic & totally safe compounds are designed to enhance receptor site sensitivity which dictate the way a plant grows or develops through the use of plant actives. These special Phospholipids are not hormones but can help increase receptor site sensitivity beyond normal levels. These receptor sites normally only react with approximately 25% of the actives produced by the plant with the rest being broken down into inactive conjugates.
By increasing the sensitivity of these sites we allow them to react with much more of the plants own actives. Being able to increase receptor site sensitivity is only the start! By using specially constructed variations of these Phopsholipids we can actually increase the sensitivity of selected receptor sites thereby controlling which aspects of the plant we wish to accelerate or enhance.
Folitech Vegetative is formulated to increase receptor site sensitivity of only those areas which control plant vegetative growth & branching patterns. The result is a quicker growing plant with more complex branching & tighter internodal spaces. For even more accentuated results use in conjunction with Dutch Master Max Vegetative Boost which supplies extra amounts of specialised nutrition & Humatic Isolates.
Folitech Flowering is formulated to increase the sensitivity of those receptor sites that are responsible for the flowering process. Larger flowers with increased development are possible when using this product. Folitech Flowering is designed to exert maximum influence when used with Dutch Master Super Bud & Max Flowering formula.
1 Ltr Grow £25.00 + £3.00 P+P
1 Ltr Flower £28.00 + £3.00 P+P"

"ADVANCE.
Dutch Master Advance is a revolutionary breakthrough in hydroponic plant nutrition.
Advance incorporates the first targeted use of Krebs Cycle metabolites in hydroponic plant nutrition. These Krebs Metabolites are designed to induce the plant into what is termed short cycling. Short cycling occurs when the correct types of Krebs metabolites are provided to the plant along with the necessary co enzymes & catalysts to help the plant complete the Krebs cycle early. However, before this can occur these specialised elements must be delivered to the exact sites needed, without them being broken down into what are termed, inactive conjugates. Before we can understand the benefits of short cycling we need to understand a little about Krebs Cycles & what they do. A Krebs cycle is the basic respiration or energy cycle of all living things & all of the hormones, auxins & signallers etc produced by a plant begin from this cycle.
What the Krebs cycle does is perform a series of complex chemical actions, each (http://localhost/sites/dutchmaster/ecore_website/admin/library/library/clubhistory2.jpg)dependent on the other to complete its part of the cycle. Once this cycle is completed it immediately begins anew. The main sites for these cycles are specialised cells called Mitochondria.
What the Dutch Master R&D team have achieved is the delivery & insertion of part of the cycle into these specialised cells. This means that the plant does not have to complete that part of the cycle and so the new cycle can begin quicker than it normally would. The benefits of this are enormous as the plants then grow & develop at an accelerated rate due to the increased output of energy by the plant. Plants grown with advance show faster growth, better flower development, larger, more colourful flowers and an increase in essential oil production which is great for herbs or medicinal crops.
The two formulations, Advance Grow & Advance Flower are tailored specifically to enable maximal development & growth from the vegetative & flowering stages of your plants."

that's the end of that chapter....the plan phys and biochem and moly bio textbook has turned out to be quite difficult to decipher indeed.....-gp hope

 

[Guest]

I picked up that brochure too, the only thing they have..poor guy. He is like, 'We all have the same one distributor for the US so it takes a while to get through customs.'

He went on to tell me that Advanced (which I guess is a Canadian Company using the term Dutch Master?) is having issues as the custom agents are piercing and opening each packet of nutrient mix (effectively ruining it) to see what is inside.

Is this our Terrorism defense?

Guess I've got some reading to do...I'm into my 3rd week of flowering however...so I'm out I suppose for this grow..but the vegging clones will get a dose.

 

[JustATry]

PR - I usually trim right as I switch to 12/12. I usually trim off everything below the 1/2 way mark, top them, and leave the to grow. This gets me 3-5 larger bud sites in addition to my main cola. I have always flipped to 12/12 at 8-10" in height but with TAG I think the results are going to differ quite dramatically. I am sure we could start flowering right as clones, but I am not sure of that yet.

In one table I have clones that are all 8-10" tall. I have trimmed and topped all of these. The other table is clones that haven't veg'ed and are going straight into flowering. So I will be able to see the results shortly.

 

[Guest]

That is sort of the problem with that TW. All those clones were taken around the same time but the TW stayed little and didn't veg at all while the HOG and RhinoxBlues took off. I am not sure about going right to flower but it would be nice to know. I have found that with the Full Spec MH I don't have to worry too much about stretch...those Widows were almost the same height as clones coming in, the Rhino as you've seen has only really grown out but no so much up.

I tried an early veg in the Hammock with some of those clones...but they never made it through..these TW aren't fairing well either. It seems you have to have at least enough for them to reach the active aerozone, my clones had roots just up in the collars...where there was enough humidity to keep them looking ok on top, but they had damped off or dried out.

I am wondering how good the coverage is from those BioControl nozzels. There was someone that was going to purchase them...but I think it was DarkSoul who after close to 5 years has still to actually grow a thing. Maybe I'll have to invest on the next rig and check it out. Meanwhile its just xls and toros..lol

But the roots look great JAT, don't sweat it! Here were my most impressive roots, but off a Tomato plant. Basically what appears to happen is those laterals turn into the long hairs.

You can see them grow out here... I think..Its like they drop the tap lines down to find the water then the laterals come out to start growing the hairs out. If you can not fuck them up, they end up being these huge hairy bushes underneath and a super thick stem and bud development up top. They'll fill those collars up with no problem, you will have to cut them out for sure.

This is about 15 Days of TAG...

 

[ITCHY.]

Yeah Jat thats me. G'day R2G thanks for welcome to this very long thread allready, (took some reading) but finally got to the last page. Since you are showing root-porn i have only the one for ya's of my Aero-drum (trash-can) LOL at 2 weeks old. I tipped my plant pretty hard last week and haven't taken any photo's of her since. Keep your pics coming guys as they are some pretty unbelievable shit...Chat again soon.

 

[Guest]

This dumb ass flattened all his clones Forgot to plug the pump back in AGAIN.... they are cool though, I think. They perked back up in a couple of hours. I'm not sure if the pump was off for 12 hrs or 24. At least I'll have another day to make sure I get the box finished.

Pod, you say your full spec. MH reduces stretch? The only lights I have in my room now are 2x600 hortilux hps but I was thinking of trying sumthin else. I may try using the 6500k floros for the first 2 weeks of flower then switch over to the hps. I have a total of 300 watts in T5 so this wouldn't give me a lot of intensity but as short plants (maybe 8" at start) it may be enough for the first 2 weeks and the floros do provide nice even coverage. I'm not sure but do you think the plants need a lot of light intensity at the start of flower or only when buds are starting to set, basically anything after the first 2 weeks?

Thanks,
Gro

 

[JustATry]

GroNut - I have always veg'ed and flower'ed with HPS Hortilux. I borrowed some conversion bulbs from a friend for one veg period. Although the plants looked cool under the blue lighting, I didn't really see a benefit to using the MH for the short veg period I am using.

I have MH's and T5's in my mom box and the growth is amazing. But for the 1-2 weeks we are in veg I can't justify unsealing all my hoods, changing the bulbs, resealing, and then doing it all over again in a couple weeks. Way too much headache without any dramatic justification IMHO.

The only way I would do this is if I was extremely limited on height and had to keep everything as squat as possible.

 

[Guest]

Agreed.

I actually like vegging under floros up till about a week from flower...



Then I run them for a week with the Full Spec MH at about 4 feet...and start to lower it until it is about 2 feet from the tops.

My experience with running the Full Spec HPS and the MH was completely different, but not necessary for my height. This is the only example I can post currently.

This is Oasis under Full Spec HPS from Floros as mentioned above.



They stretched from ultra squat 6" plants to 38"...now these were the Widows and skunk under 1K MH Full Spec from floro and they experienced very little stretch at all.



Now one was FAG the other TAG, so that might have some effect, but in my personal experience there was a tremendous difference. I also, finished the MH Widows with the HPS as I like they way it fattens them up.

However, JAT, you don't have to switch of course. I just have a smaller grow and I like the lighting of the MH for the first part as it is more 'pro' vegging (larger spectrum for vegging) and then switch to the HPS after the flowers have begun to setup as it is more 'pro' flowering and bud building. That combo created those monster colas on Widows that most see the size of walnuts. So, I'm trying it again with this bunch. I just lean towards the activity I want to see in my plants...the first few weeks I need some strong vegging, though I've never had an issue with the HPS Full Spec for vegging. But I have noticed a lot more stretching with it than the MH. Just my experience.

 

[Purpleseed]

Sorry to interrupt but I had to share my joy since I'm all alone on this run!
Here's why I'm gonna be a little bit busy these next days!
Bob Marley having fun in there!

Nice big bag full of tops only !!

I'll delete it later.

 

[Guest]

I could only wish to be so busy the next few days..I'm just puttsing waiting for my clones to root and my plants to get fat. The DM1 has been so stable I feel like I could even skip a day of watching intently. A watched Pot never Fattens. Yes, that's right...I went there. :smile:

 

[Purpleseed]

Oh man!!It's loaded with seeds!I had 2 males in the plot....bad tagging of mothers(and fathers!)

What a bummer!

Total trim 8 hours for the first part.Took only half the tops that meens at least 3 more bags.For what it's worth...I feel I'm losing my time.Maybe I can make a fire and frost the entire country !! PoP! POp! seeds craking...

 

[Guest]

Wow Purpleseed, that sucks. Bummer when you've invested so much time and effort into it. Hope the loss it not too bad.

Jat and Pod, thanks for the input. I'll have to figger out how long I plan to veg and see if it's worth the effort. It would be pretty easy to make a small rack for the floros and they could hang under the hps with not much work. We'll see.

GroNut

 

[Guest]

Or just add side lighting like I did. :smile:






Speaking of which I decided to reactivate SkyWalker and condense my grow to the ones that look like they'll produce. JAT you inspired me to go back to the XLS foggers...lol. So I've decided, though I love it, LK is now 86ed as I think that is primary problem with clogging.

So, Using exclusively DM1 line (now totally clear with no fiber) :smile: I've found that it lands on 5.8 like Ionic used too. I ran the mix as specified to find the following:

DM1 - Flower 600 ppms
DM1 - Potash+ 100 ppms
DM1 - Max Flower too 1050 ppms
Then I added either Flower or Potash depending on Ph, this case it was a little high so I added a touch of Flower which dropped it right to Ph 5.8 solid and around 1180 ppms. I've left it there for the evening.

I decided to redo SkyWalker with a line of Xls foogers (about 40) and about 8 Toro hammers only now. The mist boils out like before, but now is so ultra fine I can leave the top off as it just condensates and evaporates in minutes. Which is of course what I want.

I've also switched to my 1k HPS Full Spec and are no longer air cooled, but open...but I have the blower running around the room and from where they are now the temps were down to 68 in the rootzone and 69 in the room...with the AC set at 71...like old days of the WonderTwins.

It should improve the grow considerably, the rest are vegging for next month...period.

 

[AeRoGaNiC]

Sounds like you've got your climate controlled man. Just stoppin in to say hi. My Romp19s are burning a freakin hole in my pants. Glad your ladies are doing good =)

 

[Guest]

Hey Buddy! How have you been? You slipped off the radar for a bit there didn't you? Have you seen all the fun we've been having here? :smile:

 

[JustATry]

What's up ladies?

Purpleseed - SEEDS FUCKIN' SUCK. I had some unstable strains from Nirvana, Jock Horror and something else, that always hermied one or two flowers that I couldn't catch. So like 1/2 of my crop would always end up with seeds. This happened for the first two grows then I said "fuck it", cut down all the mom's, bleached the room, and started over with new genetics. Haven't had a problem since.

PR - yeah, I think the combo of the EXL's and Toro's are a the way to go. The EXL's give that fine mist while to Toro's just add a little extra coverage. Seems like you are running low on PPM's, or I am running high. I just checked everything and I am sitting @ 1580 w/ 5.6. This was all mixed according to DM's "One Recipe". Did you just freeball it or what? lol I was just getting ready to back down a little bit. I think I am seeing a little bit of tip burn (will post pics later) on some of my girls. But I am not totally sure.

AeRoGaNiC - what's up man? Good to see you have a break in your schedule to give us 30 seconds of your precious time.