Synthetic Cannabinoids and Terpenes

[tetragrammaton]

Hello, today I was checking another forum which had a new topic that I feel I should share, as the author I believe is referring to Sam the Skunkman's postings on IC. Unfortunately no one had any answers on the other site, yet I personally believe the author had a really good question, so I am going to paste the question so we can discuss it intelligently.

"In SWIM's world, there is a man who calls himself Sam the Skunkman. Sam the Skunkman has special permission from the DEA to grow and study Cannabis for decades now. He claims responsibility for the creation of the strain Skunk #1, although some dispute that claim. He is however responsible for bringing the great majority of early California genetics over to Holland. In the past decade he has had some involvement with GW Pharmacuticals.

Sam the Skunkman has done extensive research on Cannabis, Cannabinoids, and Terpenes. He claims THC on its own is not a pleasurable experience. He claims terpenes are what "shapes" the high, and what kind of high it will provide.

I don't remember what terpenes are responsible for what, but for those that don't know, terpenes are what provides the scent and flavor of cannabis, and, according to Sam the Skunkman, the high. For example, lemony weed will give you a different effect than skunky weed, or florarly weed, or herbally weed. As Swim said, he doesn't remember what terpenes are responsible for what action, but Sam the Skunkman has tested each terpene with pure thc, so he's not just making it up. He has grown and studied more cannabis than most people on earth, so even the people who don't like his attitude, still respect him for what he's done.

Sam the Skunkman posts frequently online, yet he has not to this date really elaborated on his research due to what he fears will happen. He does not want somebody to just create their own personal weed in a lab type setting. It would throw all the breeding work out the door. Several people have asked him about what terpenes are responsible for what action, and he has given brief explanations but as SWIM said he has never really gone into it, and refuses to, for reasons that SWIM stated.

SWIM can only imagine that these synthetic cannabinoids being used recreationally, and all the herbal incense companies, really bother Sam the Skunkman. It seems it is what he didn't want to happen in the first place. Sam the Skunkman is also good friends with John W. Huffman and has no interest what so ever in trying the compound. JWH himself has never used the compound on himself.

SWIM frequently hears the synthetics being described as "missing something". SWIM is wondering if terpenes are what they are missing. SWIM is wondering if they would truly alter the high, as they do with natural cannabinoids?

SWIM would ask Sam the Skunkman himself, but he knows he will not get an answer. SWIM is wondering if any other swimmers here have experience in studying terpenes and their effect with natural cannabinoids?

SWIM really sees no reason why it wouldn't, as the terpenes on their own have some relaxing qualities, that is why aromatherapy exists.

SWIM realizes this is a controversial subject, but he wants to make it clear that he is only interested in the knowledge for his personal research and experiments. He has no intention on creating some "super weed" and making a profit, which I believe is Sam the Skunkmans main fear of sharing his terpene research."

 

[partcleguy]

I would be very interested in this as well, but I don't know of any way for the terpenes to directly affect the high itself unless there are some unknown receptors in the brain that respond to them.

I really doubt it, but perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) there is an indirect method, through a smell pathway in the brain. Nerves that connect to the olfactory bulb travel all throughout the brain (which makes sense when you consider how important smell is to animals and our ancestors). Smelling terpenes could somehow influence the activity of neurons/glia that have cannabinoid receptors.

So yeah, that's a slight possibility that would require a whoooole lotta research to determine, but I'm guessing its actually just the ratios of different cannabinoids found in the plant (which can vary based on genetics of the plant etc.).

I don't wanna hate on Sam the Skunkman or anything, but its not completely convincing if he only used himself as a test subject and then reported a different high based on different terpenes. The high itself is highly subjective and is influenced by your mood, diet, and many other things that can change daily.

 

[tetragrammaton]

Well, on their own, terpenoids have effects when their vapors are inhaled, such as sedation.

There is a lot of research in the role that Terpenoids play in Cannabis, and it's a known fact that they directly alter the experience of the subjective high.

I, like the author, am simply curious if they would have the same effect with a synthetic such as JWH-073 or JWH-018. I don't have access to 99%+ THC and other natural cannabinoids, like the Skunkman did when he did his trials.

 

[tetragrammaton]

This is what Sam wrote to the Society of Cannabis Clinicians:

"To the Society of Cannabis Clinicians:
Most interesting to me are the modulating effects of the 120
Terpenoids found in Cannabis. Pure THC is pretty boring, flat, one dimensional with little individuality. Not sure I would be a Cannabis smoker if THC was all there was. But add a small amount of Terpenoids and the picture changes, some Terpenoids like Limonene make the subjective high much faster in onset and much stronger, with rushes, more clear, speedy, up, cerebral, euphoric, psychedelic. While other
Terpenoids like Myrcene make the THC physical, mellow, sleepy, as well as stronger.
It has been obvious to me for more then 20 years that Terpenoids played a major role in modulating the effects of THC, but now for the first time I have proof. I did the work with a volcano, using liquid pads for putting the Cannabinoids/Terpenoids on, and used Cannabinoids that were 99%+ purity.
I tried pure THC, THCV, CBD, CBN, CBG, and CBC will be next, I have gram+ amounts of each. I have also tried a dozen pure Terpenoids with and without Cannabinoids. I used the Musty drug reaction scale before and after dosing as well as a better more specific one designed by myself for all of the tastes, smells and effects of the Terpenoid/Cannabinoid
inter-reactions. I have 10 subjects so far doing the testing with me.
The bottom line is that all of the reported different effects of
different varieties of Cannabis are reputed to be from the
Cannabinoids. But besides the effects from THC and very occasional small amounts of CBD found in herbal Cannabis, all of the different reported subjective effects are in fact from the Terpenoids/THC. This has to be good news for proponents of herbal Cannabis over pure THC for medicine? I do not know if the Terpenoids are as active in modulating THC if the dose is oral by eating."

 

[partcleguy]

Hey, that's cool he has 10 other subjects working on it too. Sounds like a pretty good scientific design.

I looked up some more stuff on terpenes and found this nice site:
http://cannabis-science.com/aroma_flavor.html

They seem to suggest that terpenes are structurally similar enough to THC and other cannabinoids that terpenes typically bind to certain cannabinoid receptors. Considering their anti-inflammatory abilities, its probably mainly CB2 (and maybe non-CB1/non-CB2 receptors) receptors.

Anyway, I certainly learned something today and it seems pretty convincing if they have already been shown to be anti-oxidants/anti-inflammatory etc.

 

[house]

Man, how I dream of having Skunkmans access to compounds and and the DEA license. I do not doubt the terpenes have an effect but I would be interested in their mechanism of action. Do they affect the bodies natural THC metabolism, inhibit reputake, or perhaps form allow THC to bind to different areas than it normally would? This area demands research, we are still at the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding how the cannabis experience works.

 

[EddieShoestring]

good info

the thread when Sam decline to go into depth on terpenes is on ICMag maybe in the breeders section-a sticky or somewhere-the concern was, as I remember, unscrupulous types getting hold of the infomation and doing something unscrupulous with it. I don't move in that world so don't know how legitimate such a concern is/was-

i recall a few pages in one of The Big Book of Buds had a summary of some of the most frequently occuring terpenes and notice that Greenhouse are now putting the terpenoid profiles on their seed packets-

i'm interested in it as a subject and would also like to learn more about this so that I can more precisely pinpoint the smells in my ganja

cheers
eddieS

 

[tetragrammaton]

I'm under the impression Sam doesn't want people to just be able to create their own marijuana by adding things, as it takes the point out of breeding different strains?

I'm also under the impression that we'd all really enjoy being able to customize our weed to our specific specifications, and sam doesn't want that to happen, due to greedy people probably making a super strong kind and selling it?

Either way, I have no interest in profiting from any of my research into terpenoids. I simply want to experience the different highs, and which terpenoids I like the best. I then will simply find strains that naturally produce that terpenoid in good amounts.

I found an online supplier for terpenoids, although I have NO idea how to go about trying it, such as how much I would need to vaporize.

I did however read an article from Ed Rosenthal stating that eating a ripe mango an hour before smoking will increase the high due to the mangos myrcene levels. I plan on trying that with both natural cannabis and JWH-073 in the near future and I will report my results.

 

[Chamba]

has anyone tried synthetic cannabinoids with a small amount of cannabis?

I wonder how many dealers are spraying a solution of JWH on poor quality bud so it will move?

there's a lot of supposing there Swim/Tetra...is this how internet "facts" are born?

I don't think Sam Skunkman has a license from the DEA to grow and study cannabis....as I remember reading he said he lives in the Netherlands and has a research company there, so he probably has a license from the Netherlands government, not the USA's Ganja Gestapo. Anyway, I'm sure he will pop into this thread and set the record straight..or not.

 

[tetragrammaton]

I find JWH-018 on it's own to be a MUCH better high when mixed with herbal cannabis. It seems to synergize really well, and provides a high that is better than either on their own. Currently I have JWH-073, and tonight will smoking it on top of herbal cannabis.

But see, I'm under the impression that the increased high is a result of the Cannabis' terpenoids, and NOT the natural cannabinoids, as here is why. Currently I am extremely tolerant to natural cannabis, due to smoking synthetic blends and the actual synthetics for a few months now. If I smoked one bowl of cannabis on it's own, I would get no enjoyment, however if I mixed the cannabis with k2, or jwh-xxx, I would get much higher than either on their own. That is why I believe the terpenoids of natural cannabis interact with the synthetics, and make it a much fuller high.

Even smelling a jar of good weed, or my grinder, puts me in a great, relaxed mood, so I really think terpenoids play a bigger role than the majority of us were under the impression.

 

[supermanlives]

very interesting thread. wheres sam?

 

[tetragrammaton]

Yeah, I really hope Sam comes into this thread to clear some things up, and perhaps elaborate. I respect Sam 100% for all that he has done for Cannabis Research, but at times I wish he'd share more of his extensive knowledge with us. For instance, the 99% dry sift I can understand, if he's in the process of getting a patent. I believe he doesn't want to be taken advantage of, or used, as has happened in the past, with him being generous.

I also understand that there are people out there, who would use the knowledge that he has, for ill purposes. I mean, if you can make any weed super strong and dialed in to your specific tastes, what would be the point of breeding? I believe that is his main reason for not wanting to share his information regarding the terpenoids.

I don't think that Sam understands that there are some of us, who are not nearly as fortunate as he is, yet nevertheless still love Cannabis, and want to experience all the different highs possible.

I believe it upsets Sam that a large amount of people are using the synthetic cannabinoid agonists, something that they weren't designed for.

The fact is Sam, unfortunately Cannabis and pure Cannabinoids aren't legal. I can't just go online and pick my choice of strain. I don't live in a climate to grow pure Sativas, which are my favorite type. I can't order pure THC to do my own terpenoid experiences. Until that changes, I'm under the impression that the only way for me to carry out my terpenoid experiment in a fashion similar to yours, is to use JWH-018 instead of THC.

I really see no reason why the terpenes wouldn't effect the high in a similar way, as terpenes are quite amazing from what I've been reading.

P.S. Even though Sam probably has no interest in the money he'd make from writing a book, because from what I hear he is a billionaire, I am sure it would give him some peace of mind to know that the majority of us would support him and purchase his book.

I've learned a great amount of information from all the books I've bought from Soma, Ed Rosenthal, Jorge, R Clarke, even though a lot of that information seemed outdated, but nevertheless, I happily purchase books from people who know what they are talking about.

 

[tetragrammaton]

I found this:

"Myrcene is the most prevalent terpene found in most varieties of marijuana but not found in hemp. It is also present in high amounts in hops, lemon grass, East Indian bay tree, verbena and the plant from which it derives its name mercia. Myrcene appears in small amounts in the essential oils of many other plants.

Its odor is variously described as clove like, earthy, green-vegatative, citrus, fruity with tropical mango and minty nuances(In fact, myrcene is found in large qauntities in cavalo, rosa, espada, and paulista mangos). The various odors are the result of slight differences in the overall esential oil makeup. All of these flavors and odors are commonly used to describe Cannabis.

Myrcene is a potent analgesic, anti-inflammatory and antibiotic. It blocks the actions of cytochrome, aflatoxin B and other pro-mutagens that are implicated in carcinogenesis. It is present in small amounts in many essential oils associated with anti-depressive and uplifting behavior.

Myrcene is probably a synergist of THC: A combination of the two molecules creates a stronger experience than THC alone. Myrcene probably affects the permiability of the cell membranes, thus it may allow more THC to reach brain cells.

LIMONENE is found in the rinds of citrus and many other fruits and flowers. It is the second, third or fourth most prevalent terpene in cannabis resins. Everyone is familiar with the odor of citrus resins. They explode into the air when a fruit is peeled. The exact order is determined by the structure of the terpene.

Limonene has anti-bacterial, anti-fungal and anti cancer activities. It inhibits the ras cancer gene cascade, which promotes tumor growth. It is used to synergistically promote the absorbtion of other terpenes by penetrating cell membranes. Limonene sprays are also used to treat depression.

Since Limonene is such a potent anti-fungal and anti-cancer agent, it is thought to protect against aspergillus fungi and carcinogens found in cannabis smoke streams
.
Plants use Limonene to repulse predators. For instance, flies have a group of receptors similar in function to the taste buds on our tongues. One of them detects noxious chemicals, and responds to Limonene as if it were toxic. This is hard wired into the flies brain.

In humans, Limonene's design facilitates a direct response by quickly permeating the blood-brain barrier. The result is increased systolic blood pressure. One test, reported subjective alertness and restlessness. Various Limonene analogs can cue the brain to sexuality, buoyancy, or focused attention.

Caryophylene is a major terpene found in black pepper(15-25%), clove(10-20%) and cotton(15-25%). It is found in smaller %'s in many other herbs, and spices. It has a sweet, woody and dry clove odor and tastes pepper spicy with camphor and astringent citrus backgrounds. It contributes to black pepper's spiciness. The oil is used industrially to enhance tobacco flavor.

Caryophylene, given in high amounts, is a calcium and potassium ion channel blocker. As a result, it impedes the pressure excerted by heart muscles. As a topical it is analgesic and is one of the active constituents that makes clove oil, a preferred treatment for toothache.
It does not seam to be involved in mood change.

Pinene is the familiar odor associated with pine trees and their resins. It is the major component in turpentine and is found in many other plant essential oils in noticeable amounts including rosemary, sage, and eucalyptus. Many additional plant oils contain pinene.

Pinene is used medically as an expectorant, and topical antiseptic. It easily crosses the blood-brain barrier where it acts as a acetylcholinesterase inhibitor; that is, it inhibits activity of a chemical that destroys an information transfer molecule. This results in better memory. Largely due to the presence of pinene, rosemary and sage are both considered "memory plants."
Concoctions made from their leaves have been used for thousands of years in traditional medicine to retain and restore memory.

Pinene probably gives true skunk varieties, the ones that stink like the animal, much of their odor. It is also a bronchodilator. The smoke seems to expand in your lungs and the high comes on very quickly since a high percentage of the substance will pass into the bloodstream and brain. It also increases focus, self satisfaction and energy, which seems counterintuitive, but for the presence of terpineol.

TERPINEOL has a lilac, citrus or apple blossom/lime odor. It is a minor constituent of many plant essential oils. It is used in perfumes and soaps for fragrance.

Terpineol is obtained commercially from processing other turpines. It reduces motillity- the capability for movement- by 45% in lab rat tests. This may account for the couchlock effects of some cannabis although that odor is not usually associated with body highs. However, Terpineol is often found in cannabis with high pinene levels. Its odor would be masked by the pungent woodsy aromas of pinene.

BORNEOL smells much like the menthol aroma of camphor and is easily converted into it. It is found in small quantities in many essential oils. Comercially it is derived from artemisia plants such as wormwood and some species of cinnamon.

It is considered a "calming sedative" in chinese medicine. It is directed for fatigue, recovery from illness and stress.

The camphor like overtones of Silver Haze varieties are unmistakable. The high does have a calming effect as well as its psychedelic aspects. This probably means there is a large amounts of borneol present.

DELTA 3-CARENE has a sweet pungent odor. It is a constituent of pine and cedar resin but is found in many other plants including rosemary. In aroma therapy, cypress oil, high in D-3-carene, is used to dry excess fluids, tears, running noses, excess menstrual flow and perspiration. It may contribute to the dry eye and mouth experienced by some marijuana users.

LINALOOL has a floral scent reminiscent of spring flowers such as lily of the valley, but with spicy overtones. It is refined from lavender, neroli, and other essential oils. Humans can detect its odor at rates as low as one part per million in the air.

Linalool is being tested now for treatment of several types of cancer. It is also a component of several sedating essential oils. In tests on humans who inhaled it, it caused severe sedation. In tests on lab rats it reduced there activity by almost 75%.

PULEGONE has a minty-camphor odor and flavor that is used in the candy industry. It is implicated in liver damage in very high dosages. It is found in tiny quantities in marijuana.

Pulegone is an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor. That is, it stops the action of the protein that destroys acetylcholine, which is used by the brain to store memories. It may counteract THC's activity, which leads to low acetylcholine levels. The result is you would forget more on THC alone than THC accompanied by pulegone.

1,8-CINEOLE is the main ingredient in oil of eucalyptus. It has camphor-minty odor. It is also found in other fragrant plants and in minor amounts in marijuana. It is used to increase circulation, pain relief and has other topical uses.

Cineole easily crosses the blood-brain-barrier and triggers a fast olfactory reaction. Eucalyptus oil is considered centering, balancing and stimulating. It is probably the stimulating and thought provoking part of the cannabis smoke stream."

 

[billy_big_bud!]

i like this thread.

 

[TwistedTommy]

Good question and great thread! As a canna-amateur I can't comment on any synergies between cannabinoids and terpenes. However, as a nutritionist, I can comment on the body's biochemistry and how it utilizes other nutrients.

Recently, there is a lot of conflicting information regarding multi-vitamin supplements and their efficacy. Many claim that the body cannot even absorb or metabolize these micronutrients. Most notably, the vitamin-mineral ratioes of the dose are not balanced as they are in fruits and vegetables. The human body has evolved for millions of years to recognize and properly use these nutrients in their natural form. It does seem logical that a dose of manufactured nutrients in unnatural ratioes would be less likely to be fully used by the body. The vitamins and minerals all play off one another when being metabolized.

For example, people requiring additional calcium may supplement their diet with calcium carbonate. However, without proper levels of magnesium and vitamin D to absorb and without enough vitamin K to transport the mineral, the body cannot utilize it all and will excrete it. The same can be said for other vitamin-mineral relationships within the body as well.

Although research and evidence on phytochemicals, such as cannabinoids and other antioxidants is limited, there is emerging evidence that suggest such relationships. In my professional OPINION, it seems only logical to assume that terpenes, thc, and other cannabinoids will indeed have chemically different channels in, and effects on the body and brain.

Its kind of funny how the mainstream media is promoting the healthy effects of eating whole foods, yet society still demonizes the cannabis plant and those who cherish it.

"Grow, protect, and cherish the plant that shall heal their minds" - unknown

 

[SuperConductor]

Sam the Skunkman has special permission from the DEA

He doesn't live in the USA so why would he need one? He moved to the Netherlands in the 80's, he got a lisence from the Dutch government to work on medical cannabis research but as far as I know they are not affiliated with DEA.
This is not a good rumour to be spreading imo and it sucks that people are repeating it as if it were fact, how would you feel if people were saying you cut a deal with the DEA with no evidence at all?

 

[tetragrammaton]

what an amazing thread.

 

[Phedrosbenny]

"For example, people requiring additional calcium may supplement their diet with calcium carbonate. However, without proper levels of magnesium and vitamin D to absorb and without enough vitamin K to transport the mineral, the body cannot utilize it all and will excrete it. The same can be said for other vitamin-mineral relationships within the body as well."

Funny how this almost sounds like you are talking about growing a plant.

 

[tetragrammaton]

ya that's what i was thinking too, like nute lockout and shit, and having the proper ph.

 

[SacredTHCRitual]

this is a great thread. The terpenoids in combination with the many other active psychoactive compounds in the plant do produce that unique cannabis experience. The terpenes found in different cannabis in different amounts shape the high the effects on the body, especially when burned and inhaled. This why one can 'burn out' after using one strain too often and then have something different that will just completely take you back. It would be sweet to have a well rounded garden of all the profiles, then next question would be how do we learn to use them in balance to get the best effects from our body's / minds?

These different flavor profiles of cannabis have the ability to open different doors in the mind and is quite exciting. The cannabis entity will tell you that your body is like the plant and requires that same balance. For example when I was younger and before using cannabis regularly I used to eat a bunch of processed sugar and low nutrient foods like 2 - 3 Snickers a day, 2 - 3 Pepsi's a day, Del Taco ect bad shit..always getting multiple sodas whenever out. Never crossed my mind that the stuff may be bad for the body, after years the body adapts and becomes used to that craziness.. Pepsi cleans my car batteries man that's all I have to say...you wouldn't feed your cannabis plant that junk so why put it in your body? I still don't eat as well as I could but I haven't touched a soda in years. People I work with get drunk the night before, come into work -- no breakfast, they drink coffee w/ extra sugar and eat candy for lunch and wonder why they can't remember shit or be alert for long....odd how the norm is to keep people hopped on sugar like we do...


For those that are interested...watch this video of Green House Seeds -- Strain Hunters -- Arjan goes to Malawi in expedition parody gear in pursuit of the skunky Malawi Gold...in the video Arjan finally finds a field they were looking for...if you listen in the video he tells the camera.."we found your stuff sam the skunkman"

I don't know if these two are on the best of terms or what but it wouldn't seem like it by the tone of the video...see what vibes you gather from it..

I would like to see a skunky sativa
video link:
http://strainhunters.com/portal/?q=node/15