Stich, you out there? Help please.

[Hal Jordan]

I'm having some troubles that I think are PH related. Trouble is I'm organic soil. Never ran into PH probs before and am not sure why I would now.

SOIL:
What STRAIN are you growing?

Some very nice bag seed of god know what strain.

What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)

Seed.

What is the age of your plants?

7 to 8 weeks veg and ready for 12/12


What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?

Veg.


What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)

Untopped natural bush.


What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)

Currently 2 gal.


What substrate/medium are you using? (percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)

Aprox mix:
5 parts peat based potting soil
3 parts perlite
1 part compost (maure, unsprayed grass, leaves, corn husks, veg kitchen waste, straw, etc, nothing exotic or unusual).
1 part steer manure
1- 1 1/2 tbs lime/gal
1 tbs bloodmeal/gal
1tbs bonemal/gal
sprayed with liquid karma mixture and rested 3 or 4 weeks before use

What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*

Neptunes Harvest w/ seaweed 2-3-1
Alaska 5-1-1
Tea (compost, worm castings, molases, steer manure)

What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?

NA

What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?

7.5-8.0 Using a liquid test kit. With the slightly colored run off it's hard to be as sure as testing plain water (which is 6.5 to 7.0) by the way.

Nute mix tests at aprox 5.0 and my tea (which admitidly varries in ingredients somewhat) is 6.5

So my water ph is real close to perfect, my tea mix is not too bad, my nute mix is quite acid, but my run off is akaline? WTF?

What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?

Liquid test kit.

How often are you watering?

every 4 or 5 days. Watering slowed down some due to recent repots and will pick up shortly as roots spread into new home.

When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?

Yesterday. Feeding about once a week. Feed a little more lately. I thought I was under feeding. Lower leaves were yellowing up but now I wonder about some kind of lock out.

What size bulb are you using?

1K HPS
What is the distance to the canopy?

15" (she's air cooled by 440 cfm fan and you can lay your hand on the glass.

What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)

Hold 35-40% depending on how dry weather is. That's with a humidifier.

What is the canopy temperature?

74-78 degrees

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)

Max I've seen is 80 when it was still a little warmer and min has been 72 but mostly running 74-78.

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)

Typical box fan running on timer (15 min on, 15 min off) with a 440 cfm ecoplus pulling through an air cooled hood.

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?

Yes, hence the 15 on 15 off.

Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?

I water till moist and let dry out but not till point of drooping at next water.

Is your water HARD or SOFT?

Fairly hard.

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?

Nope

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?

No, all organic.

Are plant's infected with pest's?

Have a few soil gnats flying around but that's it. I've only seen 2 or 3 so I havn't been motivated to do anything about them yet.


Grow area is mostly enclosed with 50 watts/sf. Reflective white plastic all around also. Plenty of fresh air too.

I'm including a pic of some leaf rust. It's not my pic but shows some of what I'm starting to see on a few plants. I've been through your trouble shooting guied Stich and couldn't find anything that represents this pic.

I'm thinking that eliminating the lime might be a good idea. The rate at which most use it though is fairly tame so I'm suprised with the good water ph and acid nute/tea additions that my run off is so darn alkaline! Even more suprised when you consider the peat, blood, and bone meal all should add to acidity.

Any hlep would be greatly appreciated and thank you very much in advance.

Ok, having trouble getting pic to show in post but it's the only one in my gallery.

For some damn reason I cannot get the pic to upload (tells me it cannot read the format of a simple jpg), whatever. It's rust comming in on the body of the leaf and at tip or edges.

 

[MynameStitch]

Well, you got a lot of additives in your soil, never heard of using veg kitchen waste before
You do not have any pics uploaded.

ICMag has been messed up lately......

You listed what kind, but how much are you using? When you say you fed more often how often more besides every week?


What brand are you using for your ph test? I would try test strips, those water ph thingies I used those before and they do not work to well imo.

Normally 1 cup per 2 cu feet of soil is how much lime I use..... if you did add that much to 2 gallons that should not be causing a problem......

Is there something you did differently this grow that you did not do previous?

Problem is you using bagseed, you know nothing about the strain and strain related to growing conditions counts a lot, some like more nutrients, some can tolerate ph ranges and some can't, some need just the right pH balance and some can be in a range....

so if you have used this before but different grow strain I am sure that has a lot to do with it, not to mention, what kind of vegetables did you use in your mixture?
You obvious have more akaline items than acidic, you sould have added more peat to your mixture, your ph run off range needs to be 6.3 to 7.0

 

[Hal Jordan]

OK, some comments.

The kitchen waste is in my compost. It's fully composted organic matter, not kitchen waste added to my soil. I think maybe were confused on that.

My mix is mostly peat now and my nute additons are acidic. How much more peat does one have to add? 50-60% peat is a pretty common mix and that's roughly where I'm at. My peat levels are pretty normal for a soiless meduim now. I don't really have that many additions when you think about it, just a common soil mix with some light nutes and compost added in and a fish/liquid karma feed by water. Certainly not argueing with you stich, just tossing out some comments/questions.

Normal feed schedule is once a week. Earlier I used mostly just tea and as things have picked up I've added more nutes to the tea, otherwise watering with plain H20. The last week I ferted twice as I thought I was seeing a nute deffic. I know alot growers mistake lock outs due to ph as underfeeding and I'm wondering if that isn't what I did. I'm don't have nute burn but don't think feeding again is going to help out. I'm not feeding heavily as my by water nutes/tea are supplementing the nutes in my soil, not my only food. Never more than 1 TBS of the Neptunes (usually 2 tsp.) and never more than 2 tsp of the alaska. I just use one cap of the karma which is about the recomended 2 tsp.

I've actually wondered about the need for the liquid karma as it's used mainly for fulvic/humic acids and carbon. I've pretty much done the same by adding compost to my soil and using small amounts in my tea. I was assured that the liquid karma would act faster but my tea is pretty much a liquid extraction of the same thing.

Anyway, you are right. Not knowing what in the bean doesn't help. I know it's hard to bring soil ph down now. Any suggestions. Do you think lowering my water ph would help? That way I'm adding acidic water not only when I'm feeding but also when I water?

Hope some of the clarifications are of help.

 

[Sammet]

Alright Hal?

Sounds to me like a pH problem. Is your soil run off 7.5-8 with regular water or with nutes? It'll be good when we can get photos back up

 

[Hal Jordan]

Alright Hal?

Sounds to me like a pH problem. Is your soil run off 7.5-8 with regular water or with nutes? It'll be good when we can get photos back up

With reg water. I just took the reading today. It's been my experience in organic that ph just doesn't matter all that much so I rarely bother to check but with the probs I'm having I thought it prudent and took all the ph readings listed so I'd have concrete info to report. Stitch doesn't know me by this name but I've yapped at him in posts for years.

What I'm having such a hard time wrapping my head around is that my run off is so darn alkaline with all the reasons it should be ok to slightly acidic.

 

[MynameStitch]

Can you upload pics so I can see it?

Your mixture is not considered soiless, you have many soil additives in there imo..... soiless would consist of mainly peat perlite/ vermiculite and one or 2 soil additives... you have many more than that so yours is considered soil.

Your pH Is still high for soil mixture, you need to bring it down

when you mix your teas are you letting them sit out for at least 24 hours before using them?

You got 2 or 3 soil gnats, you mean fungus gnats? If they are you better bet you got larva in your soil mixture, which means they steal nutrients from your plants...... use some BTI and let it sit out 24 hours before using it, ( mosiquto dunks).

Like I tell peoplem it's the mixture in the soil that makes the final count..... water akalintiy and acidicness only really counts in hydro, since water is the main "medium" and you have control over it which water being the highest and it's going to have a major factor in your final pH value when the nutrients are added along with it.

How long have they been in this soil mixture?
In order to bring down the pH you are going to have to add something to the soil that is acidic like coffee grounds..... but you need to take your mixture and add a bit of coffee grounds to a mixtue and test the ph levels before and after using your nutrient mixture.
I would also let your teas sit out for about 24 hours before using them, for benifical microbes to come about and pH balance out once the mixture comes together.

What do you mean by yapping? Fighting or asking for help under different names?
I pretty much remember almost every OG handle I helped out, but recently I do not remember to many names anymore.....

 

[Hal Jordan]

Can you upload pics so I can see it?

Your mixture is not considered soiless, you have many soil additives in there imo..... soiless would consist of mainly peat perlite/ vermiculite and one or 2 soil additives... you have many more than that so yours is considered soil.

Your pH Is still high for soil mixture, you need to bring it down

when you mix your teas are you letting them sit out for at least 24 hours before using them?

You got 2 or 3 soil gnats, you mean fungus gnats? If they are you better bet you got larva in your soil mixture, which means they steal nutrients from your plants...... use some BTI and let it sit out 24 hours before using it, ( mosiquto dunks).

Like I tell peoplem it's the mixture in the soil that makes the final count..... water akalintiy and acidicness only really counts in hydro, since water is the main "medium" and you have control over it which water being the highest and it's going to have a major factor in your final pH value when the nutrients are added along with it.

How long have they been in this soil mixture?
In order to bring down the pH you are going to have to add something to the soil that is acidic like coffee grounds..... but you need to take your mixture and add a bit of coffee grounds to a mixtue and test the ph levels before and after using your nutrient mixture.
I would also let your teas sit out for about 24 hours before using them, for benifical microbes to come about and pH balance out once the mixture comes together.

What do you mean by yapping? Fighting or asking for help under different names?
I pretty much remember almost every OG handle I helped out, but recently I do not remember to many names anymore.....

Stitch,

Thanks for getting back to me! Sorry I took so long in my reply.

All is good now. I've checked my run off ph several times and I'm getting a solid 7. BTW, to answer your question, I'm using a GH liqiud test kit. I've had great luck with it in 'dro but it can be tough to use in soil run off as the run off is allready tinted in color. I went back and did several tests in good lighting to confirm my readings. I think the higher readings were due to poor light or the soil darkening the run off some. At any rate after several tests in several pots over a few days I'm pulling 7 each time, to the best of my ability to read.

I hear you on the mix, and you are right, techinichly it's not soiless.

My problem was mg deffic. A mistake I should be past making. I mistook it for N deffic and started adding more nutes than I would normally. This resulted in a slight nute burn too! Very light, but the first nute burn I've had in years. I'm embarassed at such a newb mistake but I guess no one is perfect. I added some epsom salts to my water and the problem has cleared up.

A few notes. I do brew my tea and let it set up to two weeks. I never serve it with less than 24 hours of brewing. I keep it well aerated so it stays healthy as well.



Since you brought up that you thought I have alot of ammendments I'd like
to directly address that and ask you're opinion, since I respect it.

My soil mix is real close to LC's mix and reads more like this.
Aprox mix:
5 parts peat based potting soil or actual peat
3 parts perlite
1 part compost (consisting of some or all of the following; maure, unsprayed grass, leaves, corn husks, veg kitchen waste, straw, etc, nothing exotic or unusual,, just normal waste gardeners put in compost piles, all well composted into broken down compost before using).
1 part steer manure
1- 1 1/2 tbs lime/gal
1 tbs bloodmeal/gal
1tbs bonemal/gal
sprayed with liquid karma mixture and rested 3 or 4 weeks before use

What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*

Alaska 5-1-1, used 2 or 3 times in veg max, mixed weakly in tea
Neptunes Harvest w/ seaweed 2-3-1, used 2 or 3 times in bloom max, mixed weakly in tea.

Tea (compost, worm castings, molases, steer manure)

Do you really think this is that many ingredients? My mix is real close to LC's mix and most recomended organic mixes. I didn't set out to use LC's mix so much as my just resembles his. LC and I believe Burn1 also use the same or similar amounts of blood and bone meal. LC was adamant that this level of blood and bone would carry you through an entire grow without supplemental nutes but I have found different in my garden. Thus the manure and few but, I believe, needed feedings with liquid nutes. I grow large (2-3') plants that veg a good while. I've found they begin to grow quite slow in late veg and can become quite N defficient in bloom without the extra help. What about my mix do you find is more than needed?

I've decided to cease using the liquid karma as it's redundent. I have manure and compost in my mix so I should have all the fulvic and humic acids I need allready for free. The only thing I'm adding with it is seaweed which I could add in a pure form cheaper if I chose to use it.

Anyway, you thought my mix was heavy on ingredients so I thought it was worth talking about.

I've not experienced fungs gnats before but yes, they are fungus gnats. I picked up some incecticidal soap and skeeter dunks to deal with them. Can you recomend a rate to use the dunks at? 1/4 dunk per gal water, for example.

BTW, by yapping I mean in a friendly fashion, to be sure. I know you from another life. I just keep my old handle to myself for security. I am, however, quite glad to know that you are out and about, healthy and free! When I thought I was in trouble you were the first person I thought of for help.

Appreciate your thoughts and be safe Stitch.

 

[MynameStitch]

sprayed with liquid karma mixture and rested 3 or 4 weeks before use

I would not do that unless it is going to be used right away..... mold can set in there even if there is perlite added to the mixture.... your mixture is plenty strong and you would not need to spray it with LK........

Just make sure you do NOT use it on plants younger than 3 weeks old.

LC was adamant that this level of blood and bone would carry you through an entire grow without supplemental nutes

This is ONLY true if the plants are at a certain size and are in a big pot with plenty of growing room......... not only that, but certain strains like more elements or more micronutrients..... so you can never go by that when someone says it. It's rare to see someone not use nutrients entire grow and still come out with green plants up before harvest..........

I see people say they do, but they always say they fed once or 2 times and thus they still fed.

1/2 dunk per gallon of water is what you can use; bigger infestations bad ones use a whole dunk; but it has to be bad to where your plant is being affected.

awww, thanks that is so nice of ya

Hey, I am always here if ya need something feel free anytime!

As for your mixture; yes it's extremley nute heavy and I would add a little 1 tsp or 2 tsp of bone and blood meal per gallon...... since you got all the other stuff; you do not want to over do it; even though organics are slower releasing.... still it's strong stuff and I would not put any plants in that mixture untill they have at least 4 sets of leaves....

2 week old plants would still burn in that mixture. if you want to tone it down remove the manure from it.