stealth and the power company

[OldGuyInOregon]

This thread is about stealth and the power company...

On another thread, one member asks if he would be OK running blah blah blah. Of course there is no great way to answer this question. Number of people, lifestyle, climate, and whether any natural gas is also used would be big factors. However, once you start to think about it, there are other issues... Gender, or how about "is the location in a state that borders on the Pacific Ocean" would be a good question, because I seriously doubt PGE is looking for people growing weed, and I am sure they would make the cops pay up front to look on their behalf.

However, the question is a good one. The correct way to view this issue is...

"If I where the power company, or the cops with access to the power company, and I wanted to bust someone growing weed inside, what would I look for?"

Thoughts?

My two cents is that this is a pretty tough problem for the power company. The biggest problem is that a pot-growing system electrically looks like a computer-controlled HVAC system. I think the power company's ability to collect data is no better than 1/minute, so no way to do some high-freq analysis to discriminate between different kinds of several-thousand kilowatt loads. Without other facts in evidence, I think you are OK if you are under a few kw.

For a total lamp power load of greater than 5kw, it would not be too bad to identify the lamps in the load. Look for all the changes in power greater than say 2kw. There should only be several, and each will have a different, and very predictable pattern. Identify each device by its load, device A, device B, etc. Look for a daily pattern of a device that is always on for greater than say 10 hours every day, else it is off. Those are the lamps. If you are over 5kw, you might consider each lamp or sets of lamps on different timers, even if they are for the same interval. The difference would make the load look like a house being turned on or off, and not one switch that causes the city lights to dim.

I think if you are running lights 24x7 and none on a timer, you'd have to be pulling a significant amount of power before anyone is gonna wonder about pot. I think you'd have to be over 5kw of just lights, a lot of other stuff, and also radically higher than historical.

 

[Coba]

"If I where the power company, or the cops with access to the power company, and I wanted to bust someone growing weed inside, what would I look for?"

Neighbors complaining about smell/traffic ...

 

[snake11]

You are in Oregon where it is legal for everyone to grow so I don't see what the problem is. Also they can very easily tell if it is lights or hvac equipment. We used to add monitors to peoples home panels for them. Just by clipping on to the panel it shows how much power is used for lighting, refrigeration, hvac, and others. I am sure the power company already has the capacity to run these programs.

 

[OldGuyInOregon]

Neighbors complaining about smell/traffic ...

Well sure, but this thread is about the power company not other behaviors.

 

[OldGuyInOregon]

You are in Oregon where it is legal for everyone to grow so I don't see what the problem is. Also they can very easily tell if it is lights or hvac equipment. We used to add monitors to peoples home panels for them. Just by clipping on to the panel it shows how much power is used for lighting, refrigeration, hvac, and others. I am sure the power company already has the capacity to run these programs.

Thanks! I don't have a problem, I am just posing a question for the question's sake. "If I was the power company, what would I look for?" The answer to this question will tell me how to avoid any such detection. I might decide after assessing the threat that I have no need to worry, or I might decide that if I intend to run 8,000 watt LED laser dry-ice-cooled lights I better take the 4 plant limit seriously.

Regarding the home panels, the power company cannot do this without your (my) permission because your power box is likely to be inside your residence. If they can gain entry to the panel, might as well show them the grow room. They can only monitor at the meter, which is the main line in to the residence. That's part of the problem.

What is the best the power company can in theory do? How do they do this?

 

[Kaskadian]

I think having a large spike in many thousands of watts occurring the same time, same day, etc would be a little bit suspicious. I knew a few folks that were paranoid and would have multiple grow areas (within the same house) and would have them kick on/off at different times throughout the day.

Personally, I don't really think the power company cares what you do as long as you're paying the bills on time. I know a few folks that run woodworking businesses out of their houses and use ungodly amounts of electricity without any issues. I'm a micro grower so I can't really speak from personal experiences here (my largest light in service is a 600w); maybe you can get some of the bigger (4k+) growers to chime in here.

Stay safe all,
Kas

 

[Limeygreen]

I used to know guys who would buy 5 or 6 welders, tig and mig, use them for show while fixing vehicles or just tinkering with their vehciles. No one ever bugged them about 12000 watt shows they were running.

 

[Jhhnn]

With programmable smart meters, the power company can analyze power usage should they want to do so. With some creative thinking & computer algorithms, a whole long list of potential growers would probably fit neatly on a memory stick.

OTOH, that only matters if LEO has a back door into the power company who really isn't in the business of ratting out their customers. Otherwise, cops generally need a warrant to get that stuff.

They generally have to be coming at a grower for other reasons first. It's not the first brick in the wall.

Dunno how it'll play out in Oregon but they're not looking at little guys real hard here in CO. It's like they don't want to know here in Denver proper. Provisions for legal home growing take away a lot of their tools. Pot smoke? No problem. The smell of pot growing? That's legal, too, maybe not if you're reeking out the neighborhood. It'd be way too easy to bust down the door on people who are perfectly legal, something they obviously don't want. It's a whole different deal. If you just want to grow for yourself, it's easy enough to hold to legal plant counts. Oregon is weird because of in home possession limits for growers, something we don't have at all. I doubt they'll go very far out of their way to enforce it.

The cops want the boneheads, like this-

http://www.dailydot.com/lol/colorado-stoners-trading-craigslist/

And they want big illegal growers who ship out of state-

https://www.coloradoattorneygeneral...ijuana_drug_trafficking_conspiracy_dismantled

They're real touchy about that in a bad touching sort of way. The State likes their cash cow & doesn't want anybody giving it a bad name with the feds. Ball breakers, they are.

 

[JKD]

My thoughts are as Jhhnn said - that your best insurance is to always pay your bills on or ahead of time. My own electricity supplier contacted me about my high usage once (as in 2400W of lighting so not like the big guys) to offer me a cheaper rate - that was before smart meters though but I still think they prefer to take your money than rat you out.
I think once LEO starts dealing with your power supplier about you its ahead of an imminent bust and they are just collecting the last few nails for your coffin.

 

[snake11]

Thanks! I don't have a problem, I am just posing a question for the question's sake. "If I was the power company, what would I look for?" The answer to this question will tell me how to avoid any such detection. I might decide after assessing the threat that I have no need to worry, or I might decide that if I intend to run 8,000 watt LED laser dry-ice-cooled lights I better take the 4 plant limit seriously.

Regarding the home panels, the power company cannot do this without your (my) permission because your power box is likely to be inside your residence. If they can gain entry to the panel, might as well show them the grow room. They can only monitor at the meter, which is the main line in to the residence. That's part of the problem.

What is the best the power company can in theory do? How do they do this?

They can tell everything they need to at the meter. They do not need access to your panel. As others have mentioned they are not interested in ratting their customers out unless leaned upon.

 

[Euphoriaholic]

Power company look for loss of electrical transmission and diverted electricity. The electric company does not care about peoples indoor grows if you pay the bill. They only care about receiving payment on time and making money.

I live in a non-med state and the prosecutors here will not file charges for personal grows. If you are operating a commercial grow with stolen electricity or possess firearms at the site you will be charged. Personal grow is considered less than 24 pounds wet. More than 24 pounds of wet plant material is considered trafficking here.

Long as you are not stealing power it is unnecessary to make yourself paranoid worrying about the electric company.

 

[Jhhnn]

My thoughts are as Jhhnn said - that your best insurance is to always pay your bills on or ahead of time. My own electricity supplier contacted me about my high usage once (as in 2400W of lighting so not like the big guys) to offer me a cheaper rate - that was before smart meters though but I still think they prefer to take your money than rat you out.
I think once LEO starts dealing with your power supplier about you its ahead of an imminent bust and they are just collecting the last few nails for your coffin.

Yep. The DA likes nice airtight cases, everything by the book, pro forma, ones where your lawyer will tell you to take the plea because you're screwed eight ways from Sunday. Doesn't mean the cops won't play fast & loose with the truth to give it to him, either.

In CO, the ultimate form of protection is to actually be legal wrt plant counts. A couple with 6 giant flowering trees in a greenhouse is a legal grow, as is the gettogro method-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=236262

Moving it off the property or selling it is another matter entirely. Growers have always been sitting ducks but the advent of legal anonymous growing changes the whole dynamic.

 

[Jhhnn]

Power company look for loss of electrical transmission and diverted electricity. The electric company does not care about peoples indoor grows if you pay the bill. They only care about receiving payment on time and making money.

I live in a non-med state and the prosecutors here will not file charges for personal grows. If you are operating a commercial grow with stolen electricity or possess firearms at the site you will be charged. Personal grow is considered less than 24 pounds wet. More than 24 pounds of wet plant material is considered trafficking here.

Long as you are not stealing power it is unnecessary to make yourself paranoid worrying about the electric company.

I got rid of my firearms when I came back to growing just so I can't get tangled in the catch-22's lurking there. A person could end up with a federal firearms rap over a CO legal grow if the authorities wanted to turn chickenshit, something they're really good at.

I gave up hunting long ago, hadn't fired them in many years. I had no reason to think I needed them for protection, either. The only reasons I still had them were sentimental. They're still in the family, but they're not mine any more.

 

[the gnome]

. My own electricity supplier contacted me about my high usage once (as in 2400W of lighting so not like the big guys) to offer me a cheaper rate - that was before smart meters though but I still think they prefer to take your money than rat you out.

this sez alot, they want your biz.
even with smart meters power companies have millions of customers it's winning the lottery odds a some one just decides to look at your bill. in a residential situation 2-3-4000 watts is nothing.
and plenty of people are running 2Xs that with no issue.

this is what I would do to minimize any probs.
for a few 200-$300 you can buy a 200Amp power pole
get a permit for it from the city if needed.
and if they *even* ask why,
any excuse like down the road I'm putting a garage in, or I plan on doing an addition on my house, anything they really don't care as long as you pay them for a permit and it's inspected.
once the pole is planted in the inspector take a quick look making sure everything is up to code and he puts the OK sticker on it..... you call the power company,
they'll hook it up,
when your doing your billing info have them fill out the name on the power bill and put something like cheech and chongs welding.
or emory's powder coating,
or stoners kiln kured ceramics
any biz that has a hi elec usage.
you may even get a cheaper rate as said above.
the power company doesn't check to see what's actually there and doesn't really care.
this has been my exp.
ymmv

 

[Jhhnn]

this sez alot, they want your biz.
even with smart meters power companies have millions of customers it's winning the lottery odds a some one just decides to look at your bill. in a residential situation 2-3-4000 watts is nothing.
and plenty of people are running 2Xs that with issue.

this is what I would do to minimize any probs.
for a few 200-$300 you can buy a 200Amp power pole
get a permit for it from the city if needed.
and if they *even* ask why,
any excuse like down the road I'm putting a garage in, or I plan on doing an addition on my house, anything they really don't care as long as you pay them for a permit and it's inspected.
once the pole is planted in the inspector take a quick look making sure everything is up to code and he puts the OK sticker on it..... you call the power company,
they'll hook it up,
when your doing your billing info have them fill out the name on the power bill and put something like cheech and chongs welding.
or emory's powder coating,
or stoners kiln kured ceramics
any biz that has a hi elec usage.
you may even get a cheaper rate as said above.
the power company doesn't check to see what's actually there and doesn't really care.
this has been my exp.
ymmv

Different locales have different ways of doing things. Here in the city, in older neighborhoods, options can be limited. If I wanted to pull a lot of power for a grow, I'd probably need a new transformer out on the pole in the alley & maybe heavier service wire to my breaker panel. Some newer neighborhoods have underground utilities, so the only thing you can change is from the service panel into the house.

Xcel has been busy upgrading service all over the metro area for green rush commercial growers. If there's not sufficient power at the pole outside they'll charge a fortune to bring it making some otherwise good locations entirely undesirable.

 

[the gnome]

well johnn of course codes and circumstances can vary city to city,
state to state
thats why even with the obvious i point out.....

ymmv

but the ground work i laid out above will work way, way more times
than not

 

[Jhhnn]

well johnn of course codes and circumstances can vary city to city,
state to state
thats why even with the obvious i point out.....


but the ground work i laid out above will work way, way more times
than not

No arguments, honest. Just trying to round out the picture, lay out some of the other possibilities.

 

[OldGuyInOregon]

Folks, if you want to post, please stay on point. The subject of the OP is NOT "Would the power company...", "What law enforcement...", or "Do I have to worry"? If that is your input, thanks and take it somewhere else!


The subject is "If the power company wants to detect people growing pot, what would they look for"?


Answers might be, high use, periodic use, etc.


NOT "Don't worry", "They won't", or "They can't". Besides the fact these answers are off point, they are not correct, because you people have no idea what a power company will or won't do. You folks sound kind of silly speculating as if you do know.

 

[Jhhnn]

Folks, if you want to post, please stay on point. The subject of the OP is NOT "Would the power company...", "What law enforcement...", or "Do I have to worry"? If that is your input, thanks and take it somewhere else!


The subject is "If the power company wants to detect people growing pot, what would they look for"?


Answers might be, high use, periodic use, etc.


NOT "Don't worry", "They won't", or "They can't". Besides the fact these answers are off point, they are not correct, because you people have no idea what a power company will or won't do. You folks sound kind of silly speculating as if you do know.

If I were the power company wanting to cause trouble for evil marijuana growers, I'd start with high usage. If I had smart meters, I'd program the ones showing high usage to break down the totals into short intervals showing peaks & valleys. I'd have my programmers set up the computers to do it automatically. I'd pay special attention to new customers whose usage is much, much higher than previous occupants or any whose usage explodes against the historical usage at that address. I'd have my lab test & evaluate popular grow lights of all sorts to make identification easier. I'd work with the cops to compare what they found at the last bust with my records of the power usage at that address.

When I found huge peaks (building the field on mag ballasts, loading the caps on electronic ones) followed by daily high usage periods of 12 hours or so, I'd think I have a winner. Growers can blur that with staggered startup & flipflops but even that would create a distinctive power profile.

If power companies were pro-actively busting growers who pay their bills, indoor growing never would have taken off the way it has. OTOH, when the cops show up with a court order, they comply. It's not like they'll call to tell you about that, either.

 

[Euphoriaholic]

I got to read the recent police stats report in my local area. When it came to grow house busts 9 out of 10 or 90% of the time the police were tipped off by the electric company for loss of electrical transmission. When the police went to investigate the stolen power they happened to find a grow house every time.

So to answer your question "What does the electric company look for?"
Answer: They look for loss of electrical transmission.